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Safety -- Make sure you are safe!

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  #1  
Old 2013-02-21, 12:34pm
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Default How to connect natural gas line to torch

I have a Bobcat that I'd like to run on natural gas- putting a gas line into that room is no problem. The problem is how to connect the gas line (copper) to the torch- as it is not allowed (in the UK building regulations), to use a push-on flexi hose and a hose clip.

Any ideas? I can use screw fittings on a flexi-hose, but not a push-fit one. But obviously screw fixings don't attach to the torch! Is there a way to adapt something? Or do you know anything I can tell my gas engineer to convince him otherwise?

Making beads outside is a nono (I don't really have an outside- my 2m2 yard is right of way for someone else, so i can't build anything on it, and the allotment is 1 mile away and with no electricity). I could pipe propane in through a window and remove it every time.. but thats a pain in the ass, and it seems ridiculous when there's a gas line right there! I just can't work out how to connect to it in a way that is allowed!

I'll praise you forever if you have a solution! Thanks for any help,

Charli
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  #2  
Old 2013-02-21, 1:52pm
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Not being in the UK, it's only a guess that they want to see a threaded end on a gas line
http://www.eriks.co.uk/Caterflow-Gas...Assemblies/677

You should be able to change out the barbed hose fitting on the fuel side to a threaded connection or flare, depending on what is needed there. Find out what the applicable methods of attachment are from your plumber or gas installer
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Old 2013-02-23, 12:12pm
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Yup they want a threaded end.. but how do you connect a threaded end to the torch?

The torch end (I have a bobcat, but a minor looks largely the same):


So how on earth can I connect this if I can't use a hose and a jubilee/hose clip?
I used to just use a hose like this:


But now eleven different plumbers/gas engineers have told me I can't do this. They prefer I have a propane tank inside, or dangle a 30-ft hose through an open window- both of which sound less safe than letting me connect to the natural gas line!

Any ideas at all? You're my last chance! A hobby that doesn't involve fire just wouldn't be the same....
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Old 2013-02-23, 1:40pm
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A couple of suggestions....

1) Contact your local building codes administrator and see what the actual codes are that apply to your torch needs. In some cases, they do not specifically apply or do not cover a lampworking torch.

2) Locate a local lampworking person, group or shop and see what they are doing in regard to UK rules.

3) Ask GTT for suggestions as they sell torches all over the world. And see what they have to say about UK connection issues.

The overall problem is that lampworking is an uncommon use and most plumbers try to apply the standard rules. As most have never seen a lampworking torch.

Keeping a propane tank inside IMO is against all rules. However, once again the UK rules could be different. But from a safety standpoint that tank should ALWAYS be outside.
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Old 2013-02-24, 12:31pm
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Wait, eleven different plumbers cannot figure out how to change from a 1/8" npt-1/4" barb fitting to a 1/8" npt- 1/4" flare fitting?

Seriously? Just unscrew it. The problem is they don't know because it isn't an appliance.
Can they run a gas line with a shut off valve and just CAP IT?

After looking thru the International Residential Code you can use copper (K or L) tubing and flare fittings to connect gas "appliances", this isn't rocket science!

Check out the other gas thread, and show them the picture with the valve and fire suppressor and see if they can do that
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Old 2013-02-24, 2:49pm
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It is maddening! I finally get the opportunity to do this all 'properly', yet i'm not allowed!

I have spoken to the gas-safe certification people, utterly useless, as i am not gas-safe certified all they can tell me is the phone numbers of people who are (ie all the plumbers I've called). They won't tell me anything technical.

In theory I can keep a propane tank inside, but it voids my hosue insurance, and doesn't seem a very good idea. Regulations don't stop me doin it- but they do make my insurance useless if i do.

I have spoken to GTT (they phoned me all the way to the UK! Awesome people!). They recommended a hose and a permanent hose-clip (ie one i couldn't just unscrew)- tthat plumbers are telling me I can't have. Other people in the UK have it set up this way- but my (now 12) gas-safe certified plumbers all reckkong they can't do it (have they warned each other about me?)

They won't just run a line and cap it- they have to actually hook it up to the appliance (apparently). Have no idea how this would work in a kitchen re-fit or something where the appliance wasn't ready to go in yet.. so i might phone up and try this angle.
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  #7  
Old 2013-02-24, 2:55pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by houptdavid View Post
Wait, eleven different plumbers cannot figure out how to change from a 1/8" npt-1/4" barb fitting to a 1/8" npt- 1/4" flare fitting?

Seriously? Just unscrew it. The problem is they don't know because it isn't an appliance.
Can they run a gas line with a shut off valve and just CAP IT?

After looking thru the International Residential Code you can use copper (K or L) tubing and flare fittings to connect gas "appliances", this isn't rocket science!

Check out the other gas thread, and show them the picture with the valve and fire suppressor and see if they can do that
I'm not trying to be nasty about the neighbourhood plumbers.. but most of them don't seem to want to think, they only want easy jobs! I've struggled to get them to even put a gas line upstairs (as gas appliances are not allowed in bedrooms- even though the room in question will never be used a sa bedroom), they won't install into rooms without 'professionally installed ventilation' (which will be installed, but isn't yet). Just no one wants to do anything slightly unusual.

I shall show them that pictures (from the other thread), and see if anyone is brave enough to take it on! What they're saying it that they can run a copper pipe, no problem, then they can end that with a screw fitting, and screw a hose on. but the other end of threaded hose fitting has to connect straight to the torch (which obviously has a barbed bit on it, and GTT say I shouldn't just unscrew this- as that is originally what i hoped to do). I don't want to ruin the torch by unscrewing it.. but at this point I'm willing to give it a try anyway, as i have no other ideas (and no other way to use the torch anyway!).

Shall let you know how I get on when i do the ring-round of all the plumbers tomorrow!

Any more ideas they please let me know.. It seems like it really shouldn't be this difficult!
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  #8  
Old 2013-02-24, 4:51pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charli! View Post
GTT say I shouldn't just unscrew this- as that is originally what i hoped to do).
I don't quite understand why they would say not to?

I would see if you can do this, add pigtails to the torch with crimps
Crimp type hose clamps


Pigtail ends for barb to thread


See if there is a welding shop (or knows of a shop) that can attach swage hose fittings to the barbs
If not sell the torch and get a Bethlehem with the hoses attached
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Old 2013-02-25, 10:27am
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Thanks for your help, but GTT have confirmed that you can't unscrew the torch fitting

'There is no way to remove the stud from the torch and replace with a screw in fitting.

There is no room in the torch for that and also, no fitting with the right size thread. The hose would have to be clamped on to anything coming from the torch.'

And a twelfth plumber has now refused to touch it. So.. anyone want to a buy a brand new Bobcat? Or an oxycon thats still in the box? Beware if you're in the UK and you'd like a setup indoors, unless you know a dodgy/friendly plumber its apparently no longer legal!
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Old 2013-02-26, 2:15pm
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Two alternative routes...

See what the folks say at the welding supply shops. In some cases welding torches are run off of natural gas. And some jewelry repair firms use a natural gas compressor as part of their torch setup. Can not imagine that a hand held torch would have to be connected to rigid copper tube!! One would think that there is a solution. Just that the plumbers have no experience in your needed area.

If all this fails then it would be time to contact your local assembly men. Or your local city counsel representative as a suggestion. If that fails then a MP or their staff if they are willing to assist.
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  #11  
Old 2013-02-27, 8:21am
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Ummm.... Never heard of the problems you are having before.... Maybe you are not asking the right question or in right context.....

IF all else fails, use long hose through window and propane tank outside (disconnect after each use) ... I know some will get on me for this advice, because I have always been against it, but its time for desperate moves..... ANY TORCH you get will have same issues with connection (or so it seems) with the people and rules you are dealing with...

Other solution is to move studio to location where it easier to connect gas to...

Dale
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Old 2013-02-27, 11:20am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaska View Post
Two alternative routes...

See what the folks say at the welding supply shops. In some cases welding torches are run off of natural gas. And some jewelry repair firms use a natural gas compressor as part of their torch setup. Can not imagine that a hand held torch would have to be connected to rigid copper tube!! One would think that there is a solution. Just that the plumbers have no experience in your needed area.
The rules for non-dwellings are vastly different, as far as the gas engineers have told me then if you're on commercial premises and people don't live there- you have a lot more leeway and can use as many push-on hoses as you like, the rules are only really stringent because i want my studio setting up inside my house.

In the mean time, when the house renovation is finished (as if that will be anytime soon!), I shall look into renting a garage or something somewhere and running there off propane.

Other people in the UK do run their torches on natural gas, and setup within their homes- they just obviously found brave plumbers!
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  #13  
Old 2016-05-02, 7:00pm
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I have the same problem here in Canada, Ontario. I want to use Alpha torch on NG and oxycon. I have a capped gas line within 5 feet of my lampwork place in the laundry room on the main floor of the house. I asked the heating contractor company (who seem knowledgeable as they did a good job in our other house over the years) to bring NG line closer to the torch and install extra shut off valve, so that I can connect T-hose to it. The contractor said that he can do the job, but first he needs to make sure that the torch is CSA certified. He also said that the red T hose cannot be used with NG because the hose also should be CSA certified. He said that he would connect the torch to NG with TSSA pipe and fire check is not needed. I know they want it to be safe. But there are all kinds of torches sold and manufactured in Canada, yet there is no clear regulation on their use. We have gas stoves used in houses, but the little bench burner is a problem ? I called Artistry in Glass where I ordered Alpha, and they said that the torch is classified as a bench burner that does not need to be CSA approved. Will try another gas contractor (:
P.S. The video of kids learning glass art https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2sYfaD7wRE
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Old 2016-05-04, 11:12pm
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My goodness, what a huge hassle you get put though.. Unreal. You must have talked to some of the most brain dead plumbers on the planet.

I added to my furnaces gas line, added a valve and a pipe to B fitting nipple for about $20 and screwed the hose on it. It is that simple, use the yellow tape made for gas to seal the tapered threaded fittings.

Its so simple I am shocked you folks find such incompetent boobs when you go to enquirer about a simple job like that. Very sad.
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Old 2016-05-05, 8:03am
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Too many lawyers chasing plumbers (and everyone else) for liability insurance money these days.

I did a black pipe to hose barb connection on mine, then bar b que hose to another hose barb connector to "b" fitting male connector to my torch hoses.

What you may need to do is find a plumber willing to tell 'you' what 'you' need to do to make it work with your own hands.
That way they have no liability issues.

Around here there is this "home as castle" doctrine that states that a person can do pretty much what ever they want to to their own home even if it does not fit building codes but a hired professional MUST comply with every stinking legislative mind quirk or they can lose their license and get taken to court for all they are or ever will be worth.
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Old 2016-05-05, 9:10am
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Professionals installed both a NG and propane line for me. After they left I was arranging things in the studio. I kept telling DH I was smelling propane. He thought it was just residual from the work they did. Finally I mixed up some soapy water, and started checking their connections. Yep, the professionals hadn't bothered to check their own connections and propane was leaking from the outdoor tank into our basement. Asshats! Their carelessness could have blown up our house and my children. I no longer trust professionals!
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Old 2016-05-05, 10:18am
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Snoopdog, Phill, thank you guys for your support. No, I did not give up. I just got $300 estimate from another gas certified plumber. He never saw or heard of glass torch but he did understand what I need. He will extend NG pipe with TSSA pipe to bring it with the shutoff valve near my table. It will come through the floor from the basement. From there I can use my red hose to connect to the torch. Alpha is a surface mix, but I still try to get a firecheck from Carlisle to add to the setup. I will post the picture when it's done next week.
In Canada, too, the owner can do the work but for some work need a permit/inspection. It's just the gas work I prefer professional to do. We did electrical, structural and water plumbing while renovating and found that the inspectors are the most helpful to deal with. The previous contractor guy wanted to attach the torch as an appliance so nothing would ever move or tip over. He just wanted to see CSA stick on the torch and connect it with rigid pipe instead of hose. One his suggestion I would follow though - to secure the table to the floor so it does not move.
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Old 2016-05-05, 6:23pm
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You should check with your gas company to see what pressure the gas comes into your house. i plumbed for natural gas here in the states, only to discover that gas came into the house at such a low pressure, I couldn't use it. Ernie Wagner
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Old 2016-05-05, 10:38pm
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Aye, I bought the GGT Cricket just because it said it was designed to be used with house hold natural gas pressures in the US.

And being able to get by with a 5lpm oxycon was also important to me.
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Old 2016-05-06, 12:18am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ewagnerfrog View Post
You should check with your gas company to see what pressure the gas comes into your house. i plumbed for natural gas here in the states, only to discover that gas came into the house at such a low pressure, I couldn't use it. Ernie Wagner
My gas company will give me 5 PSi no trouble but for now I have standard house pressure and am not using it right now with a Phantom and Mirage both hooked up I need propane right now.

My new shop building will have a high pressure gas line after I get it all done.
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Old 2016-05-06, 6:39am
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I will be updating about the progress so it helps others. I hope to use as little energy as just needed for a medium but detailed bead. I saw some build a kind of a heat shield that keeps heat around the flame. I am still waiting for my alpha. Will see how it will do on house NG and 1 5lpm oxycon.
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Old 2016-05-07, 8:17pm
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My Betta worked fine on HH NG with one 5 lpm and a holding tank. The Scorpion works great on HH NG, but I feed it oxy with an M-15 and a holding tank.
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Old 2016-05-17, 11:49am
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I have a bit of a progress to let you guys know. I have my NG line with shutoff near my table now, and here is a picture of the parts to connect to my Alpha. I will update when it's all up and running. Cost me about $600 CA to extend NG line + parts. I will have to replace one red hose fitting.
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Old 2016-05-20, 1:59pm
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I just tested my NG / oxycon / Alpha set up, and I am really pleased how it works. Very different to HH on small propane canisters. I made a medium aquarium bead of Effetre glass on a low gas and oxy set at 2 LPM, just to try how it feels. Here are the pictures of the connected torch.
P. S. The torch is attached with screws, then the gaps sealed with aluminum tape so no hot pieces get under it.

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