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  #61  
Old 2009-03-07, 9:47am
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Like so many of these kinds of posts... I agree w/ what the OP is saying, but not how it's being said. BUT I can understand, as this kind of situation is very disappointing and has happened to me.

Regarding the suggestion that tut writers should provide a list of supplies which can be reviewed before purchasing the tut... I made that suggestion quite a few months ago when lots of tuts were coming out. Except for one comment from someone who was surmising that some of the writers didn't want to release that much info before the tut is out, my suggestion was ignored. HOWEVER one week later someone else made the exact same suggestion and was lauded. I really believe a supplies list needs to be included in the preview so purchasers can make a fully informed decision.

If I'm trying something new, I want to do the tutorial using the same glass as being suggested in the tut. As a relative newbie, I don't always know what I can substitute.

So to the OP, I don't think you're crazy... I think I get what you're saying.
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  #62  
Old 2009-03-07, 11:11am
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I thought I was out of this thread but I guess I'm not. My tutorial does say that COE 104 can be used on the shells.
#2 and most importantly. These girls are lampworkers NOT professional authors.
They were soooo excited when they were working on this tutorial and so excited when it was finished. How cool it is to put something like this together for ALL of us.

Then there's a problem and the nastiness starts. You know what.....they didn't purposly set out to deceive anyone! Oops they made a mistake and didn't add a couple of words.
You that are free from mistakes "Please speak up"
We all learn by our mistake right? Whether it's making a bead to cooking dinner to our jobs we all forget something because we just DIDN"T think about that situation.
So cut these ladies some slack. Buy it, Don't buy it but geez people be nice about it!
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  #63  
Old 2009-03-07, 11:31am
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I actually agree with the tools and glass list to be shown in advance, so folks will know what they need to make the project. I am going to do that. I think with tools, it's a bit of a different story. Tools are expensive and sometimes cannot be substituted like glass can. I am an experienced bead maker and I would know how to substitute glass. If I was a newbie, I still would not have posted this issue in this fashion. I would have contacted the author and than maybe started a thread with no innuendoes about who's tut I was referring too, and just make a generalized statement or maybe a poll on this issue and hashed it out that way.

I do though, understand what Birdy is trying to get across.
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  #64  
Old 2009-03-07, 11:42am
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Diane and I want to thank you all for your support. We have gone back and added a list of the glass types we used for the beads we made in each tutorial in our Etsy stores just to avoid future confusion. We hope that ALL of you will have fun going forward as you learn to make shells and animal prints using our tutorials. And PLEASE feel free to contact us with ANY questions you may have. We're happy to offer our help.
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  #65  
Old 2009-03-07, 11:50am
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Just to let you know. I have been only on a hothead for ten years and I have moved completely to bullseye and it works like a charm! I was told years ago by two bead makers that I could never use rubino on a hothead as well. When I am told I cannot do something, I am more determined to make it work. Please give bullseye a try. Easy peasy!


Quote:
Originally Posted by granny View Post
I believe that was added afterward...
I am happy with the tutorials, I think I can and will learn a lot from them
Just dissapointed in the fact that I have no Bullseye and don't plan on getting any in the near future, I am on a HH and have enough trouble with melting 104 lol!
I'm sure at some point I will try to match up some of the 104 colors with those of the bullseye line...or just take a stab at it....but it would have been nice to try to make one like pictured in the tutorial first....

granny
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  #66  
Old 2009-03-07, 11:53am
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Also, when I opened my lovely tutorials from these sisters, I was a little surprised to learn they used BB but I make a quick "phew" when I remembered I am fully stocked with both glasses now.

I do get Birdy's concern but I also agree it could of been handled much better!

Always conduct business concerns privately first.

I believe there are lessons to be learned in this thread by both customer and seller.
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  #67  
Old 2009-03-07, 12:13pm
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Irene brought up something I find important: It's new stuff, and things can be incomplete. In my experience lists of all sorts are notoriously incomplete.

Also, newbie that I am, I'd experiment with different glass, but I have a very small number of tools, and listing the tools required is more important to me than listing the glass (I personally wouldn't care much if my first attempt at e.g. shells is a mixture of blues and greens).
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  #68  
Old 2009-03-07, 12:54pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebekah View Post
I can understand your wanting to alert tut publishers to the fact that some people might prefer it if the supplies were listed in the tutorial...How about: I just purchased a few tutorials and love the information I received, but would like to offer a suggestion to the authors. Can you please specify in the ad which COE is to be used and if there are any specialty glass or tools that I need to make this piece?...
I think Rebekah said it so well - back in the early replies to Birdy's post - and it is a fair point that was being made. I can give Birdy that much. Of course, recognizing that although Becky and Diane are long-time, skillful lampworkers and teachers, this WAS their first published tutorial, so I think they would have been completely open (and probably thankful as well) to receive and consider positively proffered suggestions of how to improve tutorials published in the future. Now, maybe, we'll be lucky if they dare venture into this genre again!

Using words like "weirdo glass", "higher ethical standard" and "fair and honest disclosure" seem to cross the line, though, IMHO. When you start to call into question these things, you imply intent; in other words, I simply can't believe that Becky and Diane went in with an intent to deceive, and I think these words were inflammatory and uncalled for!

Birdy~~~Don't get me wrong...I sympathize with your perspective, to some degree, and appreciate the part of what you're trying to convey is intended to help tutorial writers help their customers. On the flip side, though, I think when you start injecting positive suggestions with negative and inflammatory words, the gloves come off and the point gets clouded in hurt and defensiveness.

Becky and Diane~~~I'm sure you are both hurt by some of what has been said here in this thread - and maybe even privately in PM. I hope that you will both find the strength within yourselves as well as with the support that is being shown you here - to dust yourselves off, stand tall and proud and know that the general lampworking community sincerely applauds and appreciates you and the true kind-spirited intentions behind so much good you do for us all!

I have an interesting point to throw out there, too: I purchased a tutorial recently where specific "secrets" and "tricks" (involving easily self-fabricated tools and glass treatments/colors) were at the core of tutorial itself! If it were to have been "revealed" or otherwise discussed on the front side, with pre-purchase revelations such as "Tutorial purchaser requires *blank* products, available at Michael's or Hobby Lobby" or "Customer needs to prepare for this tutorial by fabricating *blank* tool, which can be accomplished using *blank* basic materials found in any lampworker's arsenal", that would have blown the entire reason for purchasing the tutorial in the first place.

With all this in mind, I think everyone should come away with some important lessons from this, and let go of the anger, hurt, defensiveness, etc. as best they can that has become fodder in this thread. Here's a few of my suggestions:

* Tutorial WRITERS should strongly consider doing the best they can to help prepare their buying customer to purchase, in advance, the bare necessities of what will be utilized in the tutorial to accomplish it step-by-step, all the while alerting them of the possibilities of "alternatives" that can be used. As we've seen, this is probably best accomplished by listing this information on their ad or promotion pages;

* Tutorial PURCHASERS should be sensible in their expectations - and if the above information isn't available at the time the Tutorial is announced and/or published, I think a potential purchaser should be obligated to make an inquiry of the WRITER to provide them with that information - BEFORE PURCHASING! As consumers, we should ask in advance of making a purchase so we can make an informed decision as to whether or not we want to proceed and purchase the particular Tutorial. In addition, we should keep in mind that not every little nuance, tip, technique and/or "secret" is going to be revealed to us PRIOR to purchase, as this would be defeatist of the Tutorial itself.

Just my humble opinions!

De
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  #69  
Old 2009-03-07, 1:35pm
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Cynthia, please release your TUT. PLEASE...I am so hoping for a Peepers Tut, but understand if it is not. I so love your Peepers.

I agree that the wording Birdy used could have been better BUT she did warn people by naming the thread RANT, so therefore one should expect some harsh words.

I aslo think that attacking back is bad customer service. Sorry but it is. By saying something like, I hope its your meds talking and when you wake up from that drug induced stuper.....aaa yea. Wish I could say that to my customers when they come into the store and get a bit snotty with me. I would not have any customers......

I do agree with Birdy that full disclosure is a must. Tools, Type of Glass, if any thing like enamels, pixie dust, silver foil, and the like are needed in order to get similar effects. You are selling effects when you are using silver glass...yes you are. I cannot get ANY of the silver glass to do anything for me and I have tried and tried. So by suggesting an alternative to Terra, by using TerraNova would mean nothing to me. I too would be pretty upset to find out after the fact that expensive silver glass was needed in order to get the same effects.

Also I don't think its good or fair to expect buyers to email every tut writer they are interested in buying from with questions before making the purchase.

Make it as clear as possible what is needed in order to get the desired effect/end result. How is that expecting too much from the the writers?

J
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  #70  
Old 2009-03-07, 1:40pm
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Oh and just because I have only 105 post as of now, means nothing and is not indicative of my knowledge of glass. I know of many many people on here who are new to LE not new to glass.

J
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  #71  
Old 2009-03-07, 1:47pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBeads View Post
Cynthia, please release your TUT. PLEASE...I am so hoping for a Peepers Tut, but understand if it is not. I so love your Peepers.

I agree that the wording Birdy used could have been better BUT she did warn people by naming the thread RANT, so therefore one should expect some harsh words.

I aslo think that attacking back is bad customer service. Sorry but it is. By saying something like, I hope its your meds talking and when you wake up from that drug induced stuper.....aaa yea. Wish I could say that to my customers when they come into the store and get a bit snotty with me. I would not have any customers......

I do agree with Birdy that full disclosure is a must. Tools, Type of Glass, if any thing like enamels, pixie dust, silver foil, and the like are needed in order to get similar effects. You are selling effects when you are using silver glass...yes you are. I cannot get ANY of the silver glass to do anything for me and I have tried and tried. So by suggesting an alternative to Terra, by using TerraNova would mean nothing to me. I too would be pretty upset to find out after the fact that expensive silver glass was needed in order to get the same effects.

Also I don't think its good or fair to expect buyers to email every tut writer they are interested in buying from with questions before making the purchase.

Make it as clear as possible what is needed in order to get the desired effect/end result. How is that expecting too much from the the writers?

J
i'm really on the fence about this. a lot of times you're purchasing the tutorial for the secret..for whatever material it takes to make that particular bead. so if they promote their tutorial as silver and enamel effects... you need _____ glass and _____ enamel .. then you will know the secret before you purchase the tutorial. know what i mean? then they wont sell as many, because they're giving too much away.

i do not think authors need to disclose every material you need to make the bead.
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  #72  
Old 2009-03-07, 1:56pm
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I agree with Ali here and besides that, what happened to trying something else on your own? Why not grab a rod of plain old red and see what happends, or try whatever glass you have. I get the most satisfaction when I get to play with glass, I get to pick the colors and I learn most because I did grab some ivory and topped it with rubino, I did encase coral, I did burn all color out of my reds, and reduced the crap out of my turqoise.

To me making beads is a continues learning experience, and tutorials are only a very pleasant addition to it but thats just my humble opinion.

If I'm buying a tutorial I am buying a technique wich I will try to make my own one way or another, and sometimes I just buy them because I really want to support the artist who took so much time and efford to create something beautiful.
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  #73  
Old 2009-03-07, 1:58pm
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forgot to add: I think there's a destinct difference between a tutorial on how to make *insert type of bead here* and a recipe on what's exactly in the bead, how long was it worked, what exact colors did you use and so on. I think this might be a major difference in approach. You learn how to use your pots and pans, now all you need to do is add your favorite ingredients and flavours to the dish.
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  #74  
Old 2009-03-07, 2:10pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suzanne View Post
forgot to add: I think there's a destinct difference between a tutorial on how to make *insert type of bead here* and a recipe on what's exactly in the bead, how long was it worked, what exact colors did you use and so on. I think this might be a major difference in approach. You learn how to use your pots and pans, now all you need to do is add your favorite ingredients and flavours to the dish.
suzanne, you literally put what i have been trying to say in simple words. thank you. that was great.
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  #75  
Old 2009-03-07, 2:24pm
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You all just need to remember that not everyone buys tutorials just to learn the technique and incorporate it into their own designs. Many buy them to make the exact bead in the tutorial. They may be missing out but that's their prerogative.
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  #76  
Old 2009-03-07, 2:31pm
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You all just need to remember that not everyone buys tutorials just to learn the technique and incorporate it into their own designs. Many buy them to make the exact bead in the tutorial. They may be missing out but that's their prerogative.
True, I just hope some will change their view reading this and learn so much more
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  #77  
Old 2009-03-07, 2:50pm
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You all just need to remember that not everyone buys tutorials just to learn the technique and incorporate it into their own designs. Many buy them to make the exact bead in the tutorial. They may be missing out but that's their prerogative.
You are so right, Amy. And I think that is where the problem comes in. Some people consider they are buying a pattern and some people consider they are buying instructions on a technique. The author needs to make that determination and list it on the tutorial.

"This is a pattern tutorial and you will need the following list of materials and tools in order to copy this bead."

"This is a technique tutorial. By using this tutorial I hope you will learn to use the techniques I used to create a bead similar to the one pictured. You may use whatever glass you wish, but within the tutorial I do list what glasses I used to achieve a bead similar to the photos."
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  #78  
Old 2009-03-07, 2:55pm
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Pam great idea!
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  #79  
Old 2009-03-07, 2:59pm
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pam you always have amazing advice, you rock!
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  #80  
Old 2009-03-07, 3:13pm
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If you write a tutorial, it's a good idea to list the materials and tools you use before purchase.

If the materials are a secret and the whole point of the tutorial, then say that instead.

If you don't know enough about what you're buying to feel sure you won't need to make an additional investment you don't want to make, ask.

I don't think it's really all that hard


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  #81  
Old 2009-03-07, 4:03pm
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I remember, back in the day and not so long ago at that, when there were NO tutorials. We either had Corina's book, or Cindy Jenkins' book, or no books, and learned by looking and doing. A year and a half ago I was wondering if Cynthia would ever consider doing a tutorial on her beautiful pleated style beads, and I think I even sent her a message asking her, because the likelihood of getting to LA to study with her was nil. And she said she didn't travel. (Oh please, Cynthia, do publish your tutorial!!!!)

Shortly after that tutorials starting being written. They are a godsend because we cannot always fly to Seattle, or Maine, or Texas or wherever to take someone's class, and I personally have gotten something out of every tutorial I have purchased. Along the way, though, I started to get the sense that some people expected that by purchasing a tutorial all the answers would be given...all you had to do was "plug it in" and you too would be making great beads.

I see the tutorial as a gift from the artist, who still makes some money, doesn't have to travel either, and we all win. And the challenge is there to improve, learn, perfect, grow, and maybe buy a few rods of a new glass, or a new tool (or learn to do without so many tools and really study the properties of glass), and maybe even go off on a new and exciting tangent.

I am not going to comment on the rant or the answers...you have all covered that so well, but I would like to suggest that anyone working in glass relax and enjoy the journey, even if you were not counting on turning off on that particular road...there is ALWAYS something to learn. And by the way, look at some real shells and figure out, with what you have, how to make glass ones that look like them....therin lies is the great challenge and the fun. xiola
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  #82  
Old 2009-03-07, 4:13pm
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Originally Posted by xiola blue View Post
i remember, back in the day and not so long ago at that, when there were no tutorials. We either had corina's book, or cindy jenkins' book, or no books, and learned by looking and doing. A year and a half ago i was wondering if cynthia would ever consider doing a tutorial on her beautiful pleated style beads, and i think i even sent her a message asking her, because the likelihood of getting to la to study with her was nil. And she said she didn't travel. (oh please, cynthia, do publish your tutorial!!!!)

shortly after that tutorials starting being written. They are a godsend because we cannot always fly to seattle, or maine, or texas or wherever to take someone's class, and i personally have gotten something out of every tutorial i have purchased. Along the way, though, i started to get the sense that some people expected that by purchasing a tutorial all the answers would be given...all you had to do was "plug it in" and you too would be making great beads.

I see the tutorial as a gift from the artist, who still makes some money, doesn't have to travel either, and we all win. And the challenge is there to improve, learn, perfect, grow, and maybe buy a few rods of a new glass, or a new tool (or learn to do without so many tools and really study the properties of glass), and maybe even go off on a new and exciting tangent.

I am not going to comment on the rant or the answers...you have all covered that so well, but i would like to suggest that anyone working in glass relax and enjoy the journey, even if you were not counting on turning off on that particular road...there is always something to learn. And by the way, look at some real shells and figure out, with what you have, how to make glass ones that look like them....therin lies is the great challenge and the fun. Xiola
great post!!!
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Old 2009-03-07, 4:27pm
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Oh, thank you Irene and JBeads. I am going to publish my tut very soon. It's getting a test run right now. I think Irene brought up a point that was partially my motivation for wanting to write a tutorial. I don't like to travel at this time in my life because of home and family, and I thought this was a great alternative. I didn't think a long time back that I was going to ever write one, but It's a great way to teach without leaving my home. And also, these are pieces that I don't teach in my classes.

I know how hard it is to learn lampworking alone and with no instruction. I wish these were available when I started out. Who knows though. I think I might not have learned what I did if I did it any other way. I have purchased three tutorials myself and I really enjoyed making the pieces. It's nice to do something different and totally new. It breeds all kinds of ideas and that's what I hope to accomplish for the folks who buy mine.
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  #84  
Old 2009-03-07, 4:51pm
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Originally Posted by glassactcc View Post
I am going to publish my tut very soon. It's getting a test run right now.
If you need an extra tester I'm available!
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  #85  
Old 2009-03-07, 5:10pm
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PaulaD PaulaD is offline
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Birdy,
I Have made lots and lots of shells out of 104 glass. Try white with pink frit, anything brown with iris gold frit, CiM Cirrus, CiM Desert Pink, any pink...The list goes on and on. Recently I used cobalt blue with raku frit for a funky blue shell..Sorry no photos. They get gobbled up as soon as I make them!
Paula
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  #86  
Old 2009-03-07, 5:30pm
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Jill Hoblick Jill Hoblick is offline
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Hi Becky & Diane! Great tutorials - you girls rock!!!! Jill
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  #87  
Old 2009-03-07, 6:42pm
Reenie Reenie is offline
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Originally Posted by glassactcc View Post
Oh, thank you Irene and JBeads. I am going to publish my tut very soon. It's getting a test run right now. I think Irene brought up a point that was partially my motivation for wanting to write a tutorial. I don't like to travel at this time in my life because of home and family, and I thought this was a great alternative. I didn't think a long time back that I was going to ever write one, but It's a great way to teach without leaving my home. And also, these are pieces that I don't teach in my classes.

I know how hard it is to learn lampworking alone and with no instruction. I wish these were available when I started out. Who knows though. I think I might not have learned what I did if I did it any other way. I have purchased three tutorials myself and I really enjoyed making the pieces. It's nice to do something different and totally new. It breeds all kinds of ideas and that's what I hope to accomplish for the folks who buy mine.
I second being a tester. If I can do it...anyone can
Thanks for not stopping your tutorial.
My problem isn't by "Choice" I'm jus stuck at home but I'd take a class if I could...any and all! I love learning
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  #88  
Old 2009-03-07, 6:50pm
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Originally Posted by xiola blue View Post
I remember, back in the day and not so long ago at that, when there were NO tutorials. We either had Corina's book, or Cindy Jenkins' book, or no books, and learned by looking and doing. A year and a half ago I was wondering if Cynthia would ever consider doing a tutorial on her beautiful pleated style beads, and I think I even sent her a message asking her, because the likelihood of getting to LA to study with her was nil. And she said she didn't travel. (Oh please, Cynthia, do publish your tutorial!!!!)

Shortly after that tutorials starting being written. They are a godsend because we cannot always fly to Seattle, or Maine, or Texas or wherever to take someone's class, and I personally have gotten something out of every tutorial I have purchased. Along the way, though, I started to get the sense that some people expected that by purchasing a tutorial all the answers would be given...all you had to do was "plug it in" and you too would be making great beads.

I see the tutorial as a gift from the artist, who still makes some money, doesn't have to travel either, and we all win. And the challenge is there to improve, learn, perfect, grow, and maybe buy a few rods of a new glass, or a new tool (or learn to do without so many tools and really study the properties of glass), and maybe even go off on a new and exciting tangent.

I am not going to comment on the rant or the answers...you have all covered that so well, but I would like to suggest that anyone working in glass relax and enjoy the journey, even if you were not counting on turning off on that particular road...there is ALWAYS something to learn. And by the way, look at some real shells and figure out, with what you have, how to make glass ones that look like them....therin lies is the great challenge and the fun. xiola
Bless your heart, Penny!
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  #89  
Old 2009-03-07, 6:54pm
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I guess this is a great thread to tell anyone looking for Bullseye Pinks that I have a pile of them! I did stealth away some for myself after reading the tutorials! I really loved the right hand left hand thing that you offered too!
Paula
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  #90  
Old 2009-03-07, 9:48pm
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I used raku glass in my goddess bead tutorial. I also said you can use any glass, but might want to stay away from dark ivory to start out with.

I just used the raku to show how to strike glass. That's all.

Any glass, any COE, any color.
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