Upgrading from a HH questions

Gelly · #1 2009-07-03, 4:36pm

I'm seriously thinking about finally upgrading from my HH. I don't have the funds right now, but I never will if I don't start saving for it! In order to start, I need to know how much $$ to save.

I really thought I wanted a mini cc, but I think I've changed my mind and will go with a cricket. So, my question is... what do I need to buy besides a torch and oxycon? I already have bulk propane, so I don't need that.

I'd like specifics please!!

What are the hoses called that I will need? Regulator? Flash back thingie? Anything else?

Please keep in mind... I've only worked on my HH and I've NEVER seen any other set up before in person. I really don't know what the hell I'm doing.

TIA!!

tasminann · #2 2009-07-03, 5:22pm

Wow, Gelly, I didn't realize you were on a HH still. You do such amazing work!

OK, you know you need the torch and oxycon. To go with these you will need:

Set of hoses: Green for O2, Red for Propane. I think the Cricket takes a 1/4" hose, but you will want to confirm that. They need to be T-grade.

Propane Regulator (don't need one for O2)

Flashback arrestor for propane (don't need it for O2)

Quick-connects (Optional but useful)

Hose clamps (2, but they are cheap so get 4 just in case...)

Wrench, screwdriver.

tasminann · #3 2009-07-03, 5:26pm

Here are examples of hoses:

http://www.frantzartglass.com/index....oducts_id=1906

http://www.frantzartglass.com/index....oducts_id=1907

Example of a propane regulator:

http://www.frantzartglass.com/index....oducts_id=4772

Hose Clamps:

http://www.frantzartglass.com/index....oducts_id=5029

Use these prices as a place to start shopping around. For example, you might be able to find a better deal on a propane regulator from a welding shop. And hose clamps can be bought at Home Depot or Lowes.

Gelly · #4 2009-07-03, 5:31pm

Thanks bunches Gail!!

So, nothing is needed for the oxycon besides the hose (and clamp)?

Are the quick-connects used at the torch end? and do they replace the hose clamps?

Lol! I feel like such an idiot, but like I said, I've never seen these things in person.

tasminann · #5 2009-07-03, 5:45pm

I have quick-connects on both my O2 and propane, because when I started with my setup, I had to keep rolling my concentrators around; it was easier to use a quick-connect to move all my stuff. It's really optional.

For your concentrator, it's really a straight shot between the machine and your torch. But you likely will need those hose clamps to make sure there aren't any air leaks around the hose ends.

For your fuel, it's propane tank -> regulator -> flashback -> hose -> torch.

Just to stir things up, there are quick connects that have flashback arrestors built in (that's what I have). So in my case I am: tank -> regulator -> hose -> quick connect/flashback arrestor -> hose -> torch

Gelly · #6 2009-07-03, 6:21pm

You've been VERY helpful!! Thanks so much for taking the time to answer me!!!

tasminann · #7 2009-07-03, 6:26pm

You're most welcome.

NMLinda · #8 2009-07-03, 6:47pm

Gail has given you some great tips. The only thing I would expand on, given that you're doing your upgrade from scratch, is to mount your flashback arrestors as close to your torch as you can. Many torches come with hose barb fittings, meaning that you will need to have a short section of hose at your torch, anyway. If you keep that length, say, a foot or less before you attach your flashback arrestor (but not too short - you want to tuck your hoses under your workbench if you can to keep them out of your way), you should be in good shape.

If you are planning on having only one torch, you don't really need built-in quick connects, but if you think you might expand to a second torch someday and want to swap it in/out, Gail's suggestion is good. If you want to buy the quick-connects with the built-in flashback arrestor, be sure you look for the "Safety Quick Connect" kind. Frantz Art Glass, Arrow Springs, Art Co Inc and others carry them. If you go to a welding store, be sure to as for a Western QDF style safety quick-connect or equivalent. They may have to order it for you - most welding places seem to carry the QDB style, which has a reverse-flow check valve, but does not have the flashback arrestor built in.

Hope that helps!
Linda

Gelly · #9 2009-07-03, 10:32pm

Thanks for the additional info Linda! I'll be lucky to be able to save up for one torch and oxycon, so I'm not even close to thinking about having 2 torches running. I'll have my HHs if my kids ever really get interested in lampworking and want a setup for themselves.

If I ever am able to purchase all these items, I'll probably end up calling someone to walk me through the set up step by step.

Lisi · #10 2009-07-04, 3:47am

Please don't ever sell your HH set-up, because you may find out there are things you like better on your HH. For example, I get much better pinks in Bullseye on the HH than on my Bobcat.

My reds are nice, very close to the rod color with the HH, and with the Bobcat, all are shades of brown and mahogany. No matter what I do, how slow I melt, how far out in the flame, I get brown.

NMLinda · #11 2009-07-04, 11:34am

All - I noticed a mistake on the part number prefix in my post, so I've edited it.

Linda

Birdy · #12 2009-07-04, 3:21pm

Just wanted to add one tip to all of the great info that you have gotten already:

Don't bargain-hunt when it comes to your propane regulator. Recently, I helped set up a studio for a beginning lampworker. She had purchased the lowest cost items that she could find, and everything was OK except the regulator. It doesn't hold the setting very consistently, and there are a lot of unwanted changes in flame chemistry. The regulator cost her just about $80, and was listed as "light duty".

I think your choice of a Cricket is perfect. Have been using mine for about 3 months, and absolutely love it. Was using a Red Max when I could afford the tanked oxy, and a Minor with a 5 lpm oxy-con. HUGE difference between the Minor and Cricket on the oxy-con. Cricket is an amazing little torch!

Birdy

blindmonkey · #13 2009-07-05, 6:40am

wow, what a great thread. I too just decided to start "saving up" for a cricket and this is really helpful!

Flonche · #14 2009-07-07, 6:06pm

Just my humble opinion, but for the type of work you do, Gelly, I believe the Cricket's flame might be a little bit too narrow compared to what you're used to with the Hot Head. I'm guessing you're used to the HH's nice wide flame with good radiant heat. I switched to the Cricket myself (with one old 5 lpm concentrator) from the HH 6 months ago and was amazed how close to the flame I could bring my fingers without a burning sensation. Also a lot more thermal cracks in the beginning.
The way I see it, Cricket's flame is hotter in the flame, HH's flame is hotter around the flame. But maybe I don't know flames at all or how to work with them...
As much as I love my Cricket (and it really is a perfect torch for me), I wonder if your piggies would be happy in it.
Then again, I don't know nothing and Pipyr does boro sculpture on Cricket + concentrator, so... don't mind me!!

metalbone · #15 2009-07-07, 6:56pm

bang for buck, the cricket is hard to beat. I sold my hothead 2 seconds after using it because it was frustratingly slow on 90 coe with a downright annoying noise level. The cricket can even melt boro. Try making a large bead on a HH and a Cricket and you'll instantly notice the time savings. Plus you can get a true oxiding or reducing flame on a oxy-fuel torch that the HH can't compare with. Best thing is, you can enjoy music while you work by not using a HH.

Spend a few dollars more and get a used 10 lpm oxycon and you will be a happy camper. BTW, the cricket flame width can be both wider and longer larger than a HH flame depend in how you run it, and can run a super small flame for fine detail work, unlike a HH. In short, you'll love the Cricket and my guess is the HH will collect dust, after which, just sell it.

I am not sure why you would need a flashback arrestor for your propane tank is you use a surface mix torch such as a cricket (or a minor), as there is no chance of an internal explosion forcing its way back to the tanks (as can occur with a premix). So you can scratch the flashback arrestor off your list.

As far as propane regulators, do a search for Fisher Regulator Propane...they are top quality, can run down to 1/4 PSI or less, and run about $35 plus another $7 or so for a guage.

Bare minimum is as follows:

Cricket - $139
Used oxycon - $200 to $300 (use craigslist, bargain hard, and pay cash)
1/4 hoses - $25
Propane regulator - $45
Hose clamps - $4

Enjoy.

SassyGlass9 · #16 2009-07-07, 9:41pm

And don't forget to check Craigs List for a concentrator - sometimes you can get one for an amazing price!

ETA; looks like Metalbone and I were posting the same idea at the same time.

NMLinda · #17 2009-07-07, 9:56pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by metalbone

I am not sure why you would need a flashback arrestor for your propane tank is you use a surface mix torch such as a cricket (or a minor), as there is no chance of an internal explosion forcing its way back to the tanks (as can occur with a premix). So you can scratch the flashback arrestor off your list.

Enjoy.

I'm sorry to have to disagree with you, but that's an unfortunate myth that gets propagated. It simply isn't true that there is no chance of getting a flashback going back to the tanks. How do I know? There's always someone who figures out how to be the exception to the rule, and in this case, that's me. I managed to generate a flashback on my sturdy, well-balanced and well-behaved Minor. Thank goodness I had flashback arrestors because I DID blow one!! It's been a while, but I think how I caused it was by letting my propane tank run out as I worked - a very easy mistake to make. Kimberly/kbinkster posted a very interesting analysis not too long ago on how the internal mechanics of a surface mix torch can produce one under the wrong circumstances.

Surprised the heck out of me, as I'm sure you can appreciate, and is not an experience I'd like to repeat. I figure, if it can happen to me, it can happen to anyone, so I ALWAYS recommend flashback arrestors on at least the propane side!

Linda

kbinkster · #18 2009-07-07, 10:52pm

This is what I posted on another thread about flashbacks:

Flashbacks are more likely to happen on premix torches, but they can certainly happen on surface mix torches given the right set of cirumstances. For a flashback to occur on a surface mix torch, there has to be a mix of oxygen and fuel inside one of the chambers of the torch. When it ignites, there is an explosion. Sometimes, the fire from the explosion travels upstream out of the torch and up one of the lines. It usually travels up the oxygen line.

It's important to understand how fuel and oxygen can mix inside the torch. There are at least two ways that this can happen.

The most common cause of the premixing that can cause a flashback is a leak inside the torch. If there is a leak inside the torch, gas from one chamber can enter another chamber and mix with its gas. Since we usually turn on the fuel first, it is most common for the fuel to leak into the oxygen chamber, instead of the other way around. When the torch is lighted and the oxygen turned on, there is a very loud "POP." That is the explosion inside the torch and it could continue to burn and go upstream and out of the torch. If you follow the POOP procedure (Propane, Oxygen, Oxygen, Propane) for turning on and shutting off your torch, the explosion will have happened in the oxygen chamber of your torch. This is part of the reason, I believe, that flashbacks tend to go up the oxygen line and not the fuel line.

But a leak is not the only way a flashback can occur. You can have a premix inside a surface mix torch even if there are no leaks. It is very rare that this can happen, but it can and does. If fuel somehow travels back into the torch, you can have a premix. A change in line pressures can sometimes cause this, too. Another thing to look out for is shutting off your valves all the way. If you ever turn your fuel valve off almost all the way but not quite all the way, a tiny stream of fuel will still bleed out of the torch. Sometimes, it finds its way back into the torch, going up in through the oxygen ports. If it does this, then it can pool inside the oxygen chamber of the torch and when you go to light up, you will have fuel in the oxygen chamber and this will cause a premix and possible flashback.

How do you know if the premix was caused by a leak or by the fuel bleeding back into the torch? Well, if it is a leak, it will happen repeatedly. If it never happened before, and has not happened since, then, the premix was likely caused by not turning the fuel off completely.

So, what about the role of flashback arrestors(FBAs)? Well, where ever the FBA is installed, that is where the FB will be stopped. If the FBAs are installed at the torch, that would keep the flashback from traveling further up the lines to the source of the oxygen (most likely path) and fuel (less likely, but I guess still possible). Some people insist on putting the FBAs at the regulators for added protection against line failure, but I don't agree with this.

The way that I understand FBAs to work is that the explosion from the premix that causes the flashback triggers the valve in the FBA to close. It's the pressure change (the burst from the explosion) that triggers the FBA to shut. If you burn through a line, the pressure actually drops in the line and the gas still flows. Unless you have a FBA that has the added feature of closing due to overheating, the FBA valve will not be triggered shut and it will do you no good.

metalbone · #19 2009-07-07, 11:53pm

Translation: flashbacks rarely happen with surface mix torches, unless the torch is junk and has an internal leak (probably due to bad soldering or poor quality tubing), or in a strange and almost impossible situation where the propane somehow overcomes pressure in the very small diameter oxygen port and works itself all the way back into the oxygen chamber, or there is a vacuum in the oxygen line that draws the propane in.

Given that the propane has to first leave the propane port and enter the atmpsphere (where it would dissipate) before it could travel back through the small oxygen ports, both of these options are not at all likely to occur, especially if the oxygen line is hooked to a tank or oxycon that would prevent a vacuum from forming. It really is a non-issue with surface mix torches that have been manufactured with a basic amount of craftsmanship and have been leak tested.

I have complete faith that the Cricket's internals (and those of the Minor, Mini, or any other commonly available torch) are properly constructed (it's not difficult to get a good solder seal), that there will be no internal leakage between the gas ports and oxygen chamber, and that no flashback arrestor will be needed due to internal leakage. And the other mechanisms where propane can enter the oxygen chamber are impossible or extremely unlikely to occur or unlikely to occur with enough volume that a flashback could work it's way back to the O2 tank or oxycon. But sometimes folks like to buy insurance even when the risk is virtually non-existent because it makes them feel safer, and this may be the case with a flashback arrestor with a surface mix torch. I suppose it doesn't hurt to be safer than sorry.

But to realistically characterize the likelihood of a flashback with a surface mix torch or at least draw an analogy...it probably ranks right up there with winning the lottery...not gonna happen to you or me.

metalbone · #20 2009-07-08, 12:09am

Quote:

Originally Posted by NMLinda

...so I ALWAYS recommend flashback arrestors on at least the propane side!Linda

Interesting! My understanding of the Minor is that the propane is passed through multiple tubing ports (through the oxygen chamber to the face) and the oxygen is routed around the propane tubing to the face of the torch. If propane somehow got into the torch body/oxygen chamber and flashed, the flash would travel back down the oxygen line some distance, and also forward out of the torch face, to the open atmosphere. This being the case, and unlike a premix where the propane tank has a direct connection to the mxing chamber, there is nothing that would direct such a flash (from the oxygen chamber to the face) backwards down the physically separate propane ports and line because the open atmosphere would not serve as a chamber to direct the pressure. Although you experienced a startling flashback, it did not make it back to your propane tank for a reason.

tasminann · #21 2009-07-08, 5:11am

Rene and Metalbone have a good idea with Cragislist, but with one caveat. Make sure you can try out the machine first. Meaning at the very least, turn it on and let it run for at least 5 minutes. Check to make sure the nozzle where the hose will connect doesn't have any cracks/leaks.

I recently (about 2 weeks ago) got a concentrator off Craigslist for $50. What I didn't see right away was that the nozzle was cracked, so that had to be replaced. Then while DH was replacing that, we noticed that some of the interior tubing was in the process of cracking. So DH replaced all that as well.

Now that it's all done, I do have a very nice machine for $50 (plus about another $10 for more tubing), but if you're not handy, or don't know someone who is, be careful of any "bargains".

NLC Beads · #22 2009-07-08, 9:47am

*hug* Good luck to you, Gelly. Switching scared the hell out of me, I'm glad Brian set it all up!

Lisi · #23 2009-07-08, 9:48pm

I think, for your little pigs you may need a soft bushy flame like the Mini CC.

I have both the Mini CC and a Bobcat, and there is a significant difference in the type of flame. The Cricket, I've tried it, it's cute. But I got a lot more oomph out of my Bobcat.

The GTTs are wonderful and very hot, but the flames are narrow and there is very little radiant heat surrounding the flame to keep sculpture warm as you work different areas on your piece.

I love the Mini CC for sculpture, and I made a 34mm rose in transparent pale aqua Moretti, with a barrel bead as a base, and individual petals (12) that I placed one by one. I was a newbie, and that thing did not crack! It still hasn't, and I have to say it was more the torch than me that got it right.

Go with the Mini, you won't regret it. There is one in the Garage right now, I think.

Lorraine Chandler · #24 2009-07-09, 6:45pm

Hi, here is another great idea from De:

Look at post # 12 I think it is...De had these optional elbows put on so the hoses were at a different angle.

http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...cricket+elbows

Lorraine

NMLinda · #25 2009-07-09, 9:11pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by metalbone

Interesting! My understanding of the Minor is that the propane is passed through multiple tubing ports (through the oxygen chamber to the face) and the oxygen is routed around the propane tubing to the face of the torch. If propane somehow got into the torch body/oxygen chamber and flashed, the flash would travel back down the oxygen line some distance, and also forward out of the torch face, to the open atmosphere. This being the case, and unlike a premix where the propane tank has a direct connection to the mxing chamber, there is nothing that would direct such a flash (from the oxygen chamber to the face) backwards down the physically separate propane ports and line because the open atmosphere would not serve as a chamber to direct the pressure. Although you experienced a startling flashback, it did not make it back to your propane tank for a reason.

Interesting evaluation, however, my Minor happens to be well constructed, each candle has always been perfectly balanced (unlike some I've seen), and has never had any apparent leak in the 15 or so years I've used it. If it were junk or poorly made, as you suggest in your other post, I suspect I would have had other problems with it, but it's been bullet proof and perfectly behaved. At the time I had my event, I wasn't smart enough to put the FBAs at the torch, but had them mounted at the regulator on my tank, so the flash DID travel all the way back the hose to the tank and blew the FBA before it got to the regulator - or the tank. It's been so long, however, and to be clear, I don't remember if it blew the oxygen or the propane FBA (was on tanked O2 at the time, also with the FBA at the regulator on the tank).

As a result of my experience, I use FBAs on both propane lines and 02 lines, the latter regardless of whether I'm using tanked 02 or an oxycon, and have them mounted as close to my torch as possible. Gelly's initial post focused on an oxycon rather than tanked, and I'm sure you are aware that there are two schools of thought on whether an FBA is needed for an oxycon. If she had mentioned using tanked 02, I would have promoted them on both 02 and propane sides.

Wish I could tell you more about the circumstances of my event. Like Kimberly, you clearly have an understanding of how gas flows occur in a torch, and if I could remember more, perhaps what happened might make more intuitive sense to you. Doesn't mean it did't happen, however.

Quote:

Originally Posted by metalbone

But to realistically characterize the likelihood of a flashback with a surface mix torch or at least draw an analogy...it probably ranks right up there with winning the lottery...not gonna happen to you or me.

Well, since it DID happen to me (and I probably still have the blown FBA hanging around somewhere to prove it), I probably should have bought a lottery ticket that week!

I appreciate the point you're trying to make, and since it never happened to me again (I never let my tanks go dead after that....), I can only attribute my flashback event to pilot error on my part, something that could just as easily happen to anyone else. Also, it is possible that occaisionally someone might get a faulty torch. Given the high quality standards almost all two-fuel torch-makers use, it isn't likely, but it's not a zero possibility either. For these reasons I think its only fair to let others know that although something isn't probable, it doesn't mean it's impossible. That way, they can make more informed decisions about the level of risk they'd like to take.

Linda

kbinkster · #26 2009-07-09, 9:48pm

Most of the bead torches are made fairly well - some definitely better than others. There is one, however, that I was literally scared of when doing my torch/concentrator testing and that was the Wale Firebird. IMHO, it is NOT a well-made torch and I am not bashful about saying so if that means that it will cause someone to take some extra caution when using it.

BTW, leaks are not unheard of in some of the popular bead torches. There is a reason that some of the manufacturers tell the user to dunk the torch in a bucket of water before the first use and occassionally after that.

Listenup · #27 2009-07-10, 12:24am

Here's a question for you who are "in the know" because I'm also thinking of upgrading, but it will probably be to a bobcat (or cricket). Why is a propane regulator not needed on the BBQ propane tank when hooked to a hothead and one is needed when hooked to a bobcat or cricket?

tasminann · #28 2009-07-10, 5:13am

Hi Kay,

As I understand it, the HH has an internal regulator built in, which is why you don't need one at the propane tank.

lunamoonshadow · #29 2009-07-10, 7:36am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Listenup

Here's a question for you who are "in the know" because I'm also thinking of upgrading, but it will probably be to a bobcat (or cricket). Why is a propane regulator not needed on the BBQ propane tank when hooked to a hothead and one is needed when hooked to a bobcat or cricket?

Because the hothead is much like a "plumbers torch" & needs *full* tank pressure to operate properly--not a "reduced pressure" like an oxy/propane torch does.
The hothead draws it's own "oxy" from the airholes on the side at whatever rate it needs--therefore, no regulators/regulation on *that* side either.
That's the best description I can give from all the reading I've done over the last (omg...when did I join WC?...) too many years.

metalbone · #30 2009-07-10, 7:50am

Linda, I think Nortel makes a great torch and that they are good quality, not pieces of junk at all (they are like timex watches, takes lickin and keep on tickin). I didn't at all mean to imply that minors are junk, sorry for a confusing post.

I suppose there are all sorts of things that can happen, and the fact that a flashback made it back to your arrestor with a surface mix means that maybe the risk is greater than I think and it is better to play it safe for a few dollars.