Help! Hot head questions.

[Linas]

Ok.
I´ve been just reading this:

http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/ar...php/t-831.html

and this

http://mikeaurelius.wordpress.com/20...ot-head-torch/

I got my first Hot Head about 6 months ago. Due to problems getting the hose, I have not yet used it.
Today someone told me that the HH operates at 2 bar, and that the hose needs to be attached by machine and not by a hose clamp, since the pressure be to great for the clamp causing the hose to get loose...

I have no idea what to do now... You HH users, did you buy your hose with everything needed attached by machine? I´m getting mad at this, I´m so sick of it I could just cry...
I have a Volcano right now, and was so looking forward to use my HH. But I have searched high and low (in Sweden) for a place that has the right equipment to fix me the cable, and they just tell me to keep on searching.
The company that sold me the HH are the ones that told me to just use a hose clamp, kind of makes me wonder after reading about it and hearing that you NEED to have the right stuff, attached by machine (and not by hand).

HELP!

Can anyone help me sort this out?

/Lina

[laserglass]

depending upon the temperature where your tank is, the pressure inside the hose can be as high as 12 bar!!!!! hose clamps would be extremely dangerous, but IMHO, using a hose with a hot head is always dangerous, and i never recommend that people use a bulk tank with a hothead. of course i have only said that about 100 times in several forumns. i believe that mike aurelius also has given the same advice. people seem to shop around to find the oppinion that they want to hear to justify the things they are doing. one of these days, someone is going to go up in a hugh fireball when their 12 bar hose gets melted by a flying bit of glass, or cut by a falling tool. on that day i will be sad..

[Dale M.]

Actually at about 70° f. degrees (21° c.) the pressure in tank is about 125 psi (8.62 bar).....

And Yes I'm the guy that does not see quite the danger the others see if you use a good quality commercially manufactured hose from a reputable supplier...

"Hot Head Torch/Bulk Fuel - More than you ever wanted to know"...Most current update can be found here...

http://www.artglassanswers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7

And I do not subscribe to making your own hose from hardware store parts for same reasons Mark gives.

Dale

[Linas]

I had no idea...
I´ve been lampworking with my volcano for 2 years, and this is the first time I get this info about a HH. I don´t know what to do now really...

What would be the correct use for a HH then? Is it to put it on one of those long propane bottle like things? Where you don´t need a hose at all?

Your knowledge and advice really matters to me! I guess I´ll have to find out more about the HH and how to use it as it was supposed to... and I´ll stick to the volcano for a while more.

Thank you so much for the well needed info!!
I wish the seller would have given me this information.

/Lina

[Dale M.]

One of the problems is "sellers" are the least knowledgeable people when it comes to fuel gasses and connecting up torches like the Hot Head...

Here in US, there is dozens of places you can get hoses with connectors already machine crimped on or get individual parts and assemble hoses. This hose and connector style is very popular on camping applications...

One place that may ship international is MCMASTER.COM...

Search their site for "PROPANE HOSE"....

The major problem is going to be getting "connected" to tank and it may be that your "standard" tank connections may be different standard than here in US. A places that deals in high pressure gasses and fittings may be of help in this area.

Dale

[laserglass]

Originally Posted by Dale M.

Actually at about 70° f. degrees (21° c.) the pressure in tank is about 125 psi (8.62 bar).....And Yes I'm the guy that does not see quite the danger the others see if you use a good quality commercially manufactured hose from a reputable supplier...
Dale

actually the pressure of a full tank is as follows
9.8 bar at 21C
12.2 bar at 32C
16 bar at 40C
(From NFPA 58 )

and you are the ONLY guy that tells people it is oK to use bulk tanks with hotheads. it is fine to use a hose with a bulk tank, if the torch, tank, and the entire hose is outside. it is not OK to put the tank outside and bring the hose in through a door or window and use the torch inside.

[laserglass]

Originally Posted by Linas

I had no idea...
I´ve been lampworking with my volcano for 2 years, and this is the first time I get this info about a HH. I don´t know what to do now really...

What would be the correct use for a HH then? Is it to put it on one of those long propane bottle like things? Where you don´t need a hose at all?
/Lina

there is a lot of info here and at wetcanvas on this topic. all you need to do to learn is use the "Search" button.

[Vangy]

Hi Linas,

I use a HH, but not with bulk propane. I have not gone the route of bulk because of concerns about having that much fuel inside the house - even with the tank outside. As well, I have found propane to be a very dirty fuel and it makes my glass sooty looking!

I use 1 lb MPS gas canisters. The cylinders are easy to find here in Canada. I find them in the plumbing section of the hardware store.

Vangy

[x_phoenician]

I've been using a HotHead for almost 3 years and spent all last Spring and Summer using the HotHead attached to a barbeque size tank of propane with a purchased hose.

Nothing bad happened to me, but I stopped using it out of safety concerns. The bulk tank was outside and I had the hose come inside through an open door by my work area. I found the hose in the camping section of a farm supply store (Tractor Supply).

Before that, I used 1 pound canisters of propane, not MAPP. I started out on MAPP but it's too expensive so switched to propane. Sometimes I had problems with sooty looking beads but I think that had more to do with a dirty torch/holding the bead too close to the head than the propane. I've made plenty of beads that didn't get "dirty" using propane canisters.
I don't think it's worth the risk that something bad could happen but it's your choice. I would NOT use a hose that someone just clamped together on a HotHead though. No way.

[Linas]

Originally Posted by Vangy

Hi Linas,

I use a HH, but not with bulk propane. I have not gone the route of bulk because of concerns about having that much fuel inside the house - even with the tank outside. As well, I have found propane to be a very dirty fuel and it makes my glass sooty looking!

I use 1 lb MPS gas canisters. The cylinders are easy to find here in Canada. I find them in the plumbing section of the hardware store.

Vangy

Can you pls post a picture of what it, so that I can find out if we have it here in Sweden, thanks.

/Lina

[Vangy]

Hey, I am getting better at this. My daughter usually takes all the pictures and directs me (or takes over) the posting. She is getting her beauty sleep right now.

Hope this helps you find the gas you need, Linas.

[lunamoonshadow]

Originally Posted by x_phoenician

I've been using a HotHead for almost 3 years and spent all last Spring and Summer using the HotHead attached to a barbeque size tank of propane with a purchased hose.

Nothing bad happened to me, but I stopped using it out of safety concerns. The bulk tank was outside and I had the hose come inside through an open door by my work area. I found the hose in the camping section of a farm supply store (Tractor Supply).

Before that, I used 1 pound canisters of propane, not MAPP. I started out on MAPP but it's too expensive so switched to propane. Sometimes I had problems with sooty looking beads but I think that had more to do with a dirty torch/holding the bead too close to the head than the propane. I've made plenty of beads that didn't get "dirty" using propane canisters.
I don't think it's worth the risk that something bad could happen but it's your choice. I would NOT use a hose that someone just clamped together on a HotHead though. No way.

You know...you can blow up the hoses on a *regular* oxy/propane torch by snapping hot glass onto them too you know (something people seem to forget when they're trashing the hothead/bulk-propane concept) It's all just in how careful you are & where you run your hose(s), etc.

(Hi Tracy!)

[theglasszone]

OK, Mark and Dale, I have a question for 'ya! (And by the way, I am on a HH, am planning - or at least WAS planning - on switching out to a Propane Tank and hose since MAPP in my area is going bye-bye)...

I've purchased a Regulator, Flashback Arrestor, 10 foot hose (professionally fitted on each end), Gas Gauge, and will be buying a fresh Propane Tank which I plan on using in my garage! Do you think the use of a Regulator and Flashback Arrestor will significantly reduce the danger of using a bulk tank?

Before I go to all the trouble of putting everything together (with the help of a pro. at my local "Air Gas" distribution/sales center), buying the bulk tank, etc., I'm wanting to do the "right thing" and I might as well do it now than later.

Thanks in advance for your advice - I appreciate and admire that you're willing to voice your perspective and concerns for the benefit of all us Hot Head users!

DeAnne in CA

[theglasszone]

MORE QUESTIONS...

If I decide to switch to a Mini CC from my HH:

1. Can I use the 17lb. Propane Cannisters and have them inside? (they'd be in my garage) away from my work area, but still within "the building";
2. Would I want to use the Gas Gauge/Regulator/Arrestor with this set up?
3. What type of OxyCon should I look for?

SHEESH!!! Now I'm getting worried - would sure appreciate the feedback asap! Thanks everyone!

DeAnne in CA

[Dale M.]

Originally Posted by theglasszone

I've purchased a Regulator, Flashback Arrestor, 10 foot hose (professionally fitted on each end), Gas Gauge, and will be buying a fresh Propane Tank which I plan on using in my garage! Do you think the use of a Regulator and Flashback Arrestor will significantly reduce the danger of using a bulk tank?

DeAnne in CA

Unless you are willing to run regulator at 60-75 psi, its all for nothing, because Hot Head requires at least 60 psi to even fire off.....

Being the style of torch a hot head is, it does not require or will benefit from using a flashback arrestor....

There is not much you can do to reduce the danger of a bulk tank and Hot Head than to abandon Hot Head and go to a fuel/oxygen torch with tank outside (where all fuel tanks are supposed to be anyway) and either go to tanked oxygen or oxygen concentrator.

Dale

[Dale M.]

Originally Posted by theglasszone

MORE QUESTIONS...

If I decide to switch to a Mini CC from my HH:

1. Can I use the 17lb. Propane Cannisters and have them inside? (they'd be in my garage) away from my work area, but still within "the building";
2. Would I want to use the Gas Gauge/Regulator/Arrestor with this set up?
3. What type of OxyCon should I look for?

SHEESH!!! Now I'm getting worried - would sure appreciate the feedback asap! Thanks everyone!

DeAnne in CA

Yes a Mini CC is probably going to make you happier than a Hot Head ever would.

Again ALL PROPANE tanks should be outside. PERIOD!.

Oxycon should have at least 5 LPM output at a pressure of 7-9 PSI... There is a lot written about oxygen concentrators on this site... Several people who frequent this site are also vendors of concentrators... More information from them will probably be added soon. Most of these are medical units that have been refurbished and sold for "non-medical" applications only...

Dale

[theglasszone]

Oh, Dale - Thanks so very much!!! I dread the thought of having to upgrade the whole thing, and then there's the learning curve thing on a new torch................

..............and then there's the thought of blowing the roof off my garage, and taking most of my face along with it!

I'm going to look into options. NOW!

Would I want to keep the Regulator/Arrestor if I'm working on a Mini CC?

I really can't thank you enough for the input...

DeAnne in CA

[Linas]

UPDATE:

So thanks to all the info here and found on the webb this is what´s happening wiht me:

Since I am moving to a house, I will get a safety box to have outside (not near the house) with ventilation and lock. I will setup a working area OUTSIDE the house, on the big balcony, all open air and 50 square meters, so quite huge, on the bottom floor, nothing under it!
Also I am getting a regulator (the place where I bought the HH did not inform me of this either) to get only the pressure needed for the HH.

So I am moving my studio outside. For starters. And this will give me a change to revalue my studio inside and fix it.

First steps towards safer torching.

/Lina

[WeeMary]

Take a look at tuffnellglass.com in the UK, they sell hose, regulator and adaptor all crimped and ready to go.

[laserglass]

Originally Posted by lunamoonshadow

You know...you can blow up the hoses on a *regular* oxy/propane torch by snapping hot glass onto them too you know (something people seem to forget when they're trashing the hothead/bulk-propane concept) It's all just in how careful you are & where you run your hose(s), etc.

(Hi Tracy!)

true, but there is a big differernce. for a regular hose, the fuel pressure is in the 0.25 to 10 psi range, but for a hothead torch the fuel pressure is in the 100 to 250 psi range, so a small hole becomes a very big leak. for that reason, i cover all of my hoses, with a steel braid to keep hot bits of glass, or knicks from becoming a problem. so stop rolling your eyes, and look at this picture.

[laserglass]

Originally Posted by Linas

UPDATE:

So thanks to all the info here and found on the webb this is what´s happening wiht me:

Since I am moving to a house, I will get a safety box to have outside (not near the house) with ventilation and lock. I will setup a working area OUTSIDE the house, on the big balcony, all open air and 50 square meters, so quite huge, on the bottom floor, nothing under it!
Also I am getting a regulator (the place where I bought the HH did not inform me of this either) to get only the pressure needed for the HH.

So I am moving my studio outside. For starters. And this will give me a change to revalue my studio inside and fix it.

First steps towards safer torching.

/Lina

you do not need a regulator for a hothead. save your money. you can safely use a a bulk tank with a hothead if you do it outside. you should see if you can figure out wind shields to keep wind gusts from complicating your glass activities. good luck.

[lunamoonshadow]

Mark--you'll notice I *did* say "it's all in how careful you are, & how/where you run your hoses, etc."
I think the steel braid is pure genius--I just find it annoying when people gloss over the fact that there is still some danger of melting through ANY unprotected hose with ANY torch & that ALL propane is flammable! (and then folks go off thinking they are 100% safe & protected from *everything* when they upgrade their torch--often without upgrading their ventilation, eye protection, etc. first & then start playing with bigger glass & other things!)

[theglasszone]

Thanks, Mark and Dale! I'm thinking I should just quit.................

.........piddling around with my Hot Head, that is! Maybe now it the right time to upgrade to a "Big Girl" torch with the proper hoses for oxy and fuel, and stop farting around with expense and possible danger trying to make the Hot Head work for me.

I've been torching close to 2 years now (actual time, that is; linear hands-on-when-I-can-get-them-to-stop ANNOYING me torch time is much less!)

There are many things I'd like to try to accomplish on a torch with adjustable fuel/oxy (such as "striking", for sure!) and I'm looking into an oxycon from Brent and a Mini CC. The minds says: "Just DO IT!" The pocket book says something all together different!

Gratefully,
DeAnne in CA

[Dale M.]

You have to just do it!!!!!

After all its the American thing to do to help the economy....

Dale

[NLC Beads]

Originally Posted by theglasszone

Thanks, Mark and Dale! I'm thinking I should just quit.................

.........piddling around with my Hot Head, that is! Maybe now it the right time to upgrade to a "Big Girl" torch with the proper hoses for oxy and fuel, and stop farting around with expense and possible danger trying to make the Hot Head work for me.

I've been torching close to 2 years now (actual time, that is; linear hands-on-when-I-can-get-them-to-stop ANNOYING me torch time is much less!)

There are many things I'd like to try to accomplish on a torch with adjustable fuel/oxy (such as "striking", for sure!) and I'm looking into an oxycon from Brent and a Mini CC. The minds says: "Just DO IT!" The pocket book says something all together different!

Gratefully,
DeAnne in CA

I have 5 years on a Hot Head, with a bulk tank kept outside... It's not as bad of a torch as people think, really. I can reduce some of the silver glasses (I don't use all of them) and the only thing I can't do well is big boro (I make wicked spacers, though ) and dichro... But I think the dichro is lack of practice, not the torch. I'd rather spend the money on glass and keep using a torch that works for me.

[Vangy]

I work with both a minor and a HH. I prefer the HH for sculptured beads, making stringer, and blowing small vessels. I like the minor for larger works. I know the HH is wasteful of gas. However, the ambient temperature keeps my sculptures from cracking and I have better control with it.