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Tips, Techniques, and Questions -- Technical questions or tips

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  #1  
Old 2010-07-11, 8:08pm
TBC Beads TBC Beads is offline
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Default Why Can't Glassmakers Repeat?

I realize that this is a rather large question, but I'm hoping I can get at least some direction to additional resources that can help me wrap my mind around this. Don't be afraid to recommend technical stuff, white papers, etc. either, please!

What I'm curious about is why glassmakers seem to have such problems with repeatability with the glass they make for beadmakers? It seems to me that as long as you test your raw materials for purity and consistency, measure accurately (including raw materials, heat, and time), monitor and control the process closely and handle the finished product the same way each time, you should be able to come up with the same thing, time and time again, consistently. Pharmaceutical companies do this all the time, as do plenty of other industries.

So, why can't glass makers do it? Is it that glass making is still a "mom and pop" operation for most companies, so they don't have the resources to do all the appropriate testing/process control/monitoring? Would it make glass too expensive? At this point I just can't buy the answer that the variables can't be controlled well enough, to be honest.

Edumacate me, please, if you have any information that applies here!
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  #2  
Old 2010-07-11, 8:16pm
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It's the nature of handmade that no two will ever be EXACTLY the same- hence the reason it can't be compared to something that is machine made/managed like the pharmaceutical allusion.
Some artists don't remember how they got a certain reaction, it's a little hard to write while you're making a bead
Sometimes glass batches vary, especially true w/ handpulled and silver glasses, thus making it impossible to know in the future if your effects are repeatable. Some may be oddlots and limited in supply.
And then there are artists who just don't have the patience to repeat a design over and over.
Hope that helped, Pam- I'm sure others will chime in, too!
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  #3  
Old 2010-07-11, 9:23pm
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Pam, If I understand your question correctly (Why can't glassmaking companies reproduce their own product?): don't know, it beats the heck out of me.

Bullseye manages. As for the other, I never did understand. I suppose the purity of the raw materials may have something to do with it, but then again, BE seems to manage.

Maybe better manufacturing techniques or more rigid culling techniques?
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Old 2010-07-11, 11:48pm
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I absolutely don't know if it is true but I always thought that perhaps the humidity in which base ingredients were stored, what was previously in the pot and the purity of base ingredients was the problem. I have never seen a batch of glass being made but in a production house, I assumed that the previous batch still left traces in the bottom and that was adulterating the next and that they made batches in a specific order because of that adulteration. In a lot of ways its a skill that was passed on from one generation to the next and probably resistant to 'new' production values.
I don't know how much control these companies can take of the base ingredients seeing that lampworking glass is such a small part of the glass making industry, they just may not have the financial oomph to do anything about it?

Kym
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  #5  
Old 2010-07-12, 12:04am
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They can't make yarn the same from dye lot to dye lot.
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Old 2010-07-12, 2:27am
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heck, I sorta like the serendipity of lot to lot variation. It's a pain in the neck sometimes, but every once in a while you win the lottery.
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Old 2010-07-12, 3:05am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevan View Post
They can't make yarn the same from dye lot to dye lot.
As soon as you can control the exact genetic makeup of each sheep that's sheared, the exact content and amount of the food they eat, and the weather and environment that each one of them is exposed to, this would become relevant.
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Old 2010-07-12, 3:26am
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Originally Posted by TBC Beads View Post
As soon as you can control the exact genetic makeup of each sheep that's sheared, the exact content and amount of the food they eat, and the weather and environment that each one of them is exposed to, this would become relevant.
No,it's relevant as it is. Dyes, pigments, colorants, all the same thing.

Don't you think they would make it perfectly the same everytime if they could? Or do you think they are all slackers and just say "the hell with it, that'll do?"
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Old 2010-07-12, 5:43am
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Oops, that's what I get for posting late at night- sorry, Pam, totally went over my head you were talking about the glass makers, lol.
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  #10  
Old 2010-07-12, 6:01am
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One problem with manufacturing is that your raw materials may change in subtle ways that will have an effect on the finished product. This is a real problem if you have more than one supplier for a component. Several years ago I did some testing for a medical device company and detected a sudden change in the performance of the product in a specific test. The assured me that nothing had changed on their end and we went 'round and 'round for a while. Turns out that they had changed the supplier of one key component. It was the same stuff, medical grade silicone is supposed to all be the same but the testing proved otherwise.
Even small changes in the composition of the flux or other component can make big changes in the end product in color, texture, workability, etc. even in fairly tight control operations.

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  #11  
Old 2010-07-12, 6:09am
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Glazes are the same with Tim's pottery. I think it's the nature of the minerals removed from the Earth's crust. They're just different. I remember when he purchased Copper Oxide that didn't act the same as his last batch of Copper Oxide, and boy was he ever peeved. It is intriguing, though, that BE seems to have a knack for consistency.
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  #12  
Old 2010-07-12, 6:11am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TBC Beads View Post
As soon as you can control the exact genetic makeup of each sheep that's sheared, the exact content and amount of the food they eat, and the weather and environment that each one of them is exposed to, this would become relevant.
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Originally Posted by Kevan View Post
No,it's relevant as it is. Dyes, pigments, colorants, all the same thing.

Don't you think they would make it perfectly the same everytime if they could? Or do you think they are all slackers and just say "the hell with it, that'll do?"
it's relevant "as is" because even ACRYLIC & other types of purely synthetic yarn ends up with "weird" changes in dye lots--and sheeps have nothing to do with that

even drug companies have "issues" with things--I take synthetic thyroid replacement & cannot take any of the generics--they don't process properly for me & my levels with fluctuate wildly--yet the "real" (read brand name ) will work for me--tell me WHY that is? I've tried multiple times to get on a generic (multiple manufacturers) but all it ends up costing me is multiple symptoms & lots of blood work because I totally de-stablize my blood levels...now, on the same theory of glass making, it's just "ingredients in a pill", right? how the freak hard is it to get it right??? (yet here I am 20+ years later with the same freakin' $37 a month "not covered by insurance 'cause it's not a generic" issue!!! yet, they'd love for me to get blood drawn every 2 weeks to "try & determine a dose" Thanx, no...we try every 5 years or so for 6 months & it doesn't work )
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  #13  
Old 2010-07-12, 6:28am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrissij View Post
Glazes are the same with Tim's pottery. I think it's the nature of the minerals removed from the Earth's crust. They're just different. I remember when he purchased Copper Oxide that didn't act the same as his last batch of Copper Oxide, and boy was he ever peeved. It is intriguing, though, that BE seems to have a knack for consistency.
My dad was an artist and often he would mix his own paints from pigments. He did complain of the differences from one batch of oxides to another. Yes, I do too wonder how BE manages it.
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Old 2010-07-12, 10:18am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevan View Post
No,it's relevant as it is. Dyes, pigments, colorants, all the same thing.

Don't you think they would make it perfectly the same everytime if they could? Or do you think they are all slackers and just say "the hell with it, that'll do?"
Kevan, I'm not being facetious, but yes, I think that's exactly what they do. I think certain companies figure it will sell no matter what and feel no reason to improve on performance.
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  #15  
Old 2010-07-12, 10:22am
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Dye lots in yarns (except hand dyed yarns) do not vary to the degree that some glass does, at a minimum they are in the same color family. It is usually far closer than glass lots. I have glass that I do not consider remotely close to the color I thought I was ordering. Not only have these glasses sold, many of them have sold at premium prices.

Last edited by KEW; 2010-07-12 at 10:26am.
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  #16  
Old 2010-07-12, 10:35am
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From what I understand, some companies have only so many furnaces. One batch they will pull green glass, the next batch blue, the next another color. I heard that they will work from dark to light. But being that it is all chemistry, I would guess that if there were any residual oxides or ingredients, it would influence the next batch.

Anyone hear of that?
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Old 2010-07-12, 11:06am
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1) Drug companies have budgets in the hundreds of millions of dollars. Glass companies do not have that kind of funding. And with that kind of funding, drug companies charge a fortune for their product. I would not want a glass company to decide to charge $100 for a quarter pound of rod.

2) Why blame it on the glass company? Even if the glass is identical, is your torch setting identical to the last bead you made? If your first bead took 4 minutes to make and the next bead took 4 1/2 minutes would they come out the same? If your studio is 95 degrees in the summer and 40 degrees in the winter will the summer beads be exactly the same as the winter beads? Etc., etc...........

3) Are you a mass production person or an artist? I do not want any of my work to come out identical!

No offense; just some thoughts on this subject.
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Old 2010-07-12, 12:42pm
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Originally Posted by gmkcpa View Post
Are you a mass production person or an artist? I do not want any of my work to come out identical!
I'm an artist that makes a lot of beads and there are a few that I can't make anymore because the once rich color is too washed out these days. The ones I used to make with that color used to bring in a lot of money to help me pay my bills. So yes, it does matter to some of us.
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Old 2010-07-12, 1:43pm
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If I am making a set of beads, I would not want them identical, but I do want them to look matched and coordinated and look like a 'set'. I own glass that varies in color so much from purchase to purchase that that is impossible. The colors are nowhere near close, they are frequently not even the same color. All my glass has been purchased from large, reputable sellers.

If you are making something for a specific project in a specific color range and only have 3 rods in the original (a color that bears a name and number and hue that reflects traditional aspects of that color and is a regular color on the manufacturer's palette) color, you can spend weeks trying to find a way to stretch those rods to achieve the desired effect. I've done it. I repeat, I am not talking odd lots here, I am talking regular numbered supposed to always be available colors in the manufacturer's palette.

Most of the time it doesn't make a difference. But when it does, it's a big deal.


There are many easy ways (for me anyway) to accomodate a mismatched dyelot in yarn so it is not noticeable. I have never had a yarn that varied so greatly that careful easy placement wouldn't make it blend just fine. I can work with paint, might take a little time, but I bet I can get darn close. With glass, it's a whole 'nuther ball game and incredibly time consuming.

Last edited by KEW; 2010-07-12 at 1:51pm.
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Old 2010-07-12, 2:24pm
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It depends really.

There are issues with the purity of the materials used, a difference in where the silica you used to batch was mined in the quarry can affect it's make up for example, this will affect the glass that's made.


Many manufacturers use cullet to help the pot along. The mix of glass forming this cullet will vary from batch to batch and will cause shifts and variation.

Chemicals used to color the glass might change from supply run to supply run, and some of them may degrade over time as well. So if you ordered a ton of cadmium, but the time you exhaust your supply the chemical may have changed, may have acquired dust from the air that mixes in and causes a subtle shift, etc. We're not exactly talking about Intel level clean rooms here.

Where in the pot a glass is pulled from can affect the color as a fresh pot will be hotter than the glass pulled from the bottom of the run, so some of your glass could effectively be 'pre-struck' slightly changing your user experience.

Recipe's change over time too to make adjustments for brittleness, COE shift, etc. And while the recipe may make 90% of the user's happy, that 10% that's used it for years will rise up and complain.

For the record, BE has color shifts too, but their quality control is a little higher because they offer up compatibility guarantees on so much of their product, but they still have odd lots. I suspect that a lot of their cullet used to produce new glass is glass recycled from their own runs, so you see less outside interference. Keep in mind that BE supplies stained glass folks, fusers, and lampworkers, so they're customer base is massively larger than CIM, Northstar, Glass Alchemy, Moretti, etc.
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  #21  
Old 2010-07-12, 6:00pm
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Okay. I like this thread. Now-how about clear glass? There are many companies that make it, and they each have a different formula. The only difference I ever heard about with clear boro rod is you'll get a better halo using Pyrex than using Simax when you implode flower petals made of NS Caramel. Are there other differences?
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Old 2010-07-13, 5:44am
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Originally Posted by gmkcpa View Post
Okay. I like this thread. Now-how about clear glass? There are many companies that make it, and they each have a different formula. The only difference I ever heard about with clear boro rod is you'll get a better halo using Pyrex than using Simax when you implode flower petals made of NS Caramel. Are there other differences?
That's interesting to know, and I believe I know what you mean by halo on the implosions. I'll keep that in mind. The one thing I will say about boro clear is that it's so perfectly clear and bubble free, I wish it were that easy to have those qualities in soft glass!
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Old 2010-07-13, 6:37am
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I think it also has to do with the reason we don't like to often make the same beads over and over again, it is boring. I think that the people you see making small batches of glass rods are experiementing to see if they can find something really unique...but it is hard on the beadmakers...
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Old 2010-07-13, 6:47am
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Thank you so much Tom for all this information!
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Old 2010-07-13, 8:25am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmkcpa View Post
1) Drug companies have budgets in the hundreds of millions of dollars. Glass companies do not have that kind of funding. And with that kind of funding, drug companies charge a fortune for their product. I would not want a glass company to decide to charge $100 for a quarter pound of rod.

2) Why blame it on the glass company? Even if the glass is identical, is your torch setting identical to the last bead you made? If your first bead took 4 minutes to make and the next bead took 4 1/2 minutes would they come out the same? If your studio is 95 degrees in the summer and 40 degrees in the winter will the summer beads be exactly the same as the winter beads? Etc., etc...........

3) Are you a mass production person or an artist? I do not want any of my work to come out identical!

No offense; just some thoughts on this subject.

Original poster wasn't talking about the end products..our work such as beads. Original poster was wondering why there are differences in colors, textures etc from batch to batch with the rods of color glassfrom glass rod makers. It's a very valid question. We have all asked that or had angst over it at some time.

For years we loved EDP 254 all of a sudden it changes. WHY!!?? Opal yellow for years was fabulous..now not so much...why? Dark Ivory..had several batches that were die for!!!

As for your statement with an exclamation point that you do not want any of your work to come out identical! There are lots of times as beadmakers we want exactly that. Especially if we are trying to figure out a new technique or new color combo or new shape. or for making a tut. Or worse case senario a customer loses a few beads or an earring to a set and wants a replacement.
No offense...just some thoughts on your post.

Last edited by Lorraine Chandler; 2010-07-15 at 9:32pm.
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  #26  
Old 2010-07-14, 4:52am
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I appreciate everyone's thoughts and comments here! After spending some time reading here and talking with some manufacturing process type friends, I've pretty much decided that it's certainly *possible* for glassmakers to repeat color formulations much more closely than most currently do, but it would take too much of a capital commitment in terms of testing raw materials and equipment (individual furnaces per color, etc.) than is feasible or desirable for most glass manufacturers. In addition, brilliant marketing on the part of some manufacturers has made the "odd" or "special" glasses desirable, sometimes even commanding premium prices, rather than what they truly are: mistakes that aren't up to the quality they should be! That's not being "slackers", but it is making a silk purse out of a sow's ear. The more demand for odds and specials there is, the less important making a truly consistent product becomes to the bottom line.

Re: the whole wool/acrylic fiber thing, I admit to being a fiber snob and so rarely buy acrylic yarn, but I have noticed in the past the notation "No dye lot" on acrylic yarns. So yes, it's certainly possible for yarn to be consistent in color...IF the company puts the effort and expense into making it happen.

And yes, I'm one of those people who want to buy a raw material (which is what glass is to those people who melt it) and want it to be consistent, so that I can plan to use it the same way I have in the past. I think that's the difference in thought process between those who see glassworking from a craftsperson's point of view, as opposed to those who look at it as artists. Both are equally valid viewpoints, but they would have very different feelings about their materials IMO.

It's about chemistry and manufacturing techniques. I'm convinced it CAN be done, but probably WON'T be by many manufacturers, for whatever reason.

Thanks again to all who have posted here.
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Old 2010-07-14, 10:30am
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I appreciate everyone's thoughts and comments here! After spending some time reading here and talking with some manufacturing process type friends, I've pretty much decided that it's certainly *possible* for glassmakers to repeat color formulations much more closely than most currently do, but it would take too much of a capital commitment in terms of testing raw materials and equipment (individual furnaces per color, etc.) than is feasible or desirable for most glass manufacturers. In addition, brilliant marketing on the part of some manufacturers has made the "odd" or "special" glasses desirable, sometimes even commanding premium prices, rather than what they truly are: mistakes that aren't up to the quality they should be! That's not being "slackers", but it is making a silk purse out of a sow's ear. The more demand for odds and specials there is, the less important making a truly consistent product becomes to the bottom line.

Re: the whole wool/acrylic fiber thing, I admit to being a fiber snob and so rarely buy acrylic yarn, but I have noticed in the past the notation "No dye lot" on acrylic yarns. So yes, it's certainly possible for yarn to be consistent in color...IF the company puts the effort and expense into making it happen.

And yes, I'm one of those people who want to buy a raw material (which is what glass is to those people who melt it) and want it to be consistent, so that I can plan to use it the same way I have in the past. I think that's the difference in thought process between those who see glassworking from a craftsperson's point of view, as opposed to those who look at it as artists. Both are equally valid viewpoints, but they would have very different feelings about their materials IMO.

It's about chemistry and manufacturing techniques. I'm convinced it CAN be done, but probably WON'T be by many manufacturers, for whatever reason.

Thanks again to all who have posted here.
Then would you mind leaning on the Chinese distributors (who now control most of the world's chemical supply) to PLEASE be clean, and consistent, and make sure their chemicals are really pure?? Sure, and they'll get the melamine out of their milk too, and lead out of their kids toys.

Yes, fluctuations in the chemical market can even mess up your clear 104. Speaking as a team member at one of the smallest color companies, we wish we could make the glass EXACTLY the same every time, seriously we do, but slight variation is the name of the game, especially with small-batch silvered colors.

If we could mine all the chemicals ourselves, process them, assure ourselves of the consistency of the chemical deposit in our personal mine, AND never tap it out - well, then we could have more control, and you'd be paying a thousand dollars a pound for the glass.

BTW, I know some people really hate the variation in the Effetre corals. If you are not aware, they are made with cadmium, and those kind of colors are extremely difficult to control for shade. They change radically under a number of different conditions, and sometimes you just can't really effect the weather.
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Old 2010-07-14, 10:49am
TBC Beads TBC Beads is offline
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Jenny, you seem to be offended by my post, and I'm sorry about that. I guess I didn't clearly communicate what I was thinking: that although it is possible to ensure more consistency, it's probably not economically feasible for small glassmakers to do it. I'm putting the onus on the market forces, here, and I'm sorry if you felt like this was some kind of personal attack on your business. While most of the issues I've seen mentioned here *can* be accounted for and corrected with the correct application of technology, that approach does take money. Sometimes, lots and lots of it. And in looking at the balance sheet, it's most probably not feasible for glassmakers...which I felt I had said.

However, I still stand by my comments about specials and odds. I dislike the apparent "Oh, this didn't come out like it usually does, let's call it special and sell it anyway" mentality. That's MY personal take on it, which obviously, others don't share. But as I said, I certainly accept that other opinions than mine are valid.

Thanks for commenting; you're the only person (to my knowledge) actually involved in a glassmaking company to post in this thread, and I'm glad you did.
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Old 2010-07-14, 10:50am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Firebrand Beads View Post
Then would you mind leaning on the Chinese distributors (who now control most of the world's chemical supply) to PLEASE be clean, and consistent, and make sure their chemicals are really pure?? Sure, and they'll get the melamine out of their milk too, and lead out of their kids toys.
The Chinese were kind enough to remove the lead from the kids toys. They substituted cadmium (it's more toxic, but cheaper).

Robert
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Old 2010-07-14, 10:52am
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PaulaD PaulaD is offline
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The news out of China is even worse for glass makers. They have now restricted exports of their rare earths to 20% of production. And they own most of the rare earths in the world. My advice is that if you find a color that you can't live without then hoard it! Personally I don't mind the variation. As for Bullseye they have an entire line of something called "Curious, Furious" which is glass that didn't come out exactly the way they wanted it to...Paula
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