Universal Bead Release

[redbearmountain]

Hello,

I bought this new universal bead release that everyone was bragging about. Well it cracks and comes off the mandrel while in the flame. Really screws things up! Does anyone else have this problem with this bead release? It does go on the mandrel real smooth. I am letting it air dry also and when dry I can see tiny cracks all over the mandrel even before I use it. What should I do? I currently use fusion bead release which I never have a problem with I love that stuff. Niya

[squid]

http://lampworketc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192580

[emoon]

Originally Posted by redbearmountain

Hello,

I bought this new universal bead release that everyone was bragging about. Well it cracks and comes off the mandrel while in the flame. Really screws things up! Does anyone else have this problem with this bead release? It does go on the mandrel real smooth. I am letting it air dry also and when dry I can see tiny cracks all over the mandrel even before I use it. What should I do? I currently use fusion bead release which I never have a problem with I love that stuff. Niya

Good looking dog!!!

[PiP]

Niya - Did you contact Tim? I would add your comments regarding your issues in the original thread. He'll respond and work with you. I think Tim put his contact information there too. Just follow the link that Squid supplied.

My guess is that your release is too thick. I thinned mine ever so slightly and like how it works even better than I did originally. As you can tell, I'm a fan.

[redbearmountain]

I noticed that when I dipped my mandrels the bead release ran down the mandrel some, I don't think it is to thick mine looks way thin it was pretty soupy. I am also using Donna"s bead rollers and it was coming off the mandrel when I use my rollers.

[PiP]

I would use the other thread and communicate your issues to Tim. He might have some great suggestions. I'm really sorry that you're having a hard time with this release. I really do love it.

When you post on the other thread make sure to mention where you are and the batch number written on the bottom of the bottle.

[guaranteed]

Started a thread some time ago after I got the new Universal. It will just not work. I put message on Forum and emailed and called with complaint but thus far have not had any response rom Frantz. NOt looking for a refund just some answers. They have always been fair with me. I just orfdered another 60.00 from them but any answer would help. Happy its not just me. My sister-in-law also bought large and had same problem. Always go to the Frantz blast and think they are great but some kind of answer would help. Probably a bad batch.

[2tumblingdragonz]

yeah, I'm still having problems, too. I gave up. I thought it was good, and right after my last post I noticed cracks when it dried.
I don't have this problem with any of the other 5 bead releases I've tried and used.
I am hoping Tim figures this out, when it works, it sounds great, there just must be something we're not figuring out between all of us. I wonder if heat or cold during shipping or storing could have effected it?
(too lazy/tired to look for the other thread).

namaste
Rowyn

[cheng076]

No Frantz bash this year...

[Sheila D.]

Don't forget we're having a "no bash,bash" at American Heritage campground in August!
http://lampworketc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188152

[polka dottie]

I have used the new Universal Bead Release and found it wonderful to dip, and while it cracked when I heated it in the flame, it did not flake off the mandrel and working my bead was not hampered in any way by the cracks. It held up and worked the way I would hope from a quality bead release. I was skeptical when I saw the cracking but did not notice any problem whatsoever while working. I did some pressing and high heating and cooling and still the release held and performed. My only reservation about it was that it was a bear to clean out of the bead holes. I use a dremel tool and many beads took some time to clean. Other than that, I love this new bead release and would reorder in a second. It is the closest to Bucket O' Mud I have seen and I was a huge fan of BOM. I detest the bead release that is gray and drops grit in my work area and kiln. Just hate that. Universal Bead Release is not gritty in any way and if it cleaned out of the beads easier, I would think it was a clone of BOM.

[Lisi]

Are your mandrels completely dry before dipping? Wet mandrels will make those cracks all over because when you dip, you are trapping the water between the release and the mandrel. That water doesn't absorb into the release which is what most people would assume. When it dries quickly on the outside, the wetter area trapped inside will make those cracks.

I had this problem on occasion for years until I finally figured out what was causing it. For about 4 years now, I haven't seen it happen again.

[GlassGalore]

Originally Posted by polka dottie

I have used the new Universal Bead Release and found it wonderful to dip, and while it cracked when I heated it in the flame, it did not flake off the mandrel and working my bead was not hampered in any way by the cracks. It held up and worked the way I would hope from a quality bead release. I was skeptical when I saw the cracking but did not notice any problem whatsoever while working. I did some pressing and high heating and cooling and still the release held and performed. My only reservation about it was that it was a bear to clean out of the bead holes. I use a dremel tool and many beads took some time to clean. Other than that, I love this new bead release and would reorder in a second. It is the closest to Bucket O' Mud I have seen and I was a huge fan of BOM. I detest the bead release that is gray and drops grit in my work area and kiln. Just hate that. Universal Bead Release is not gritty in any way and if it cleaned out of the beads easier, I would think it was a clone of BOM.

^^THIS^^ !! I agree with everything above. And although it's more difficult to clean out that BOM is, it's still easier than many of the other releases out there today. Just ordered another large bottle of Universal!

ETA from seeing Lisi's post afterwards, yes, perfectly dry mandrels. And I've thinned my bottle down slightly with some distilled water and it improved the dipping performance but I still get the crackling effect.

[Planet Glass Products]

Thank you all for your input and advice... I am learning a bunch of things about release I never knew. I have been following this thread everyday... I just didn't want to chime in until I actually had something new and constructive to say.

I took two steps back and really thought about the issues of UBR cracking before it was dry and popping off the mandrels. Although I realize that there is no single release that will be perfect for everyone, I still have to ask myself “Is this acceptable?” and “Is this truly the best UBR can be?”… Until I can answer both of those questions “yes”, I still have work to do.

I experimented for about six months with different formulas and procedures to batch release. I ended up with two different mixes that seemed to work great “mix A” and “Mix B”. The main difference between these two mixes is that “mix B” has half as much silica flour in it. I sent both mixes to a network of testers across the country with a questionnaire. The results were 50/50 as to which mix was the best (although most testers thought that both mixes were great… I made them choose a favorite.)… I ended up choosing “mix B” as the UBR formula because it was less expensive to produce and less hazardous… a win/win situation.

I private messaged the few people from this thread that was experiencing issues with UBR cracking before it was dry and popping off the mandrels and asked them if they would be willing to receive a sample of “mix A” to compare with UBR. All three agreed to do a test for us. I also sent a few samples to beadmakers that already really liked UBR.

We just received word from the three testers that experienced trouble with UBR and the results are good. None of the three experienced any cracking or popping issues with “mix A”. The few testers that already liked UBR reported that “mix A” seemed to perform a bit better than UBR as well.

I still want to do a few tests, but if everything still points in this direction, we will most likely re-formulate UBR to “mix A”.

Any thoughts?

[Firebrand Beads]

Hi Tim - I have been using your UBR lately as I test the new TAG Taxco frit. I do see a few of the cracks but not much if any flaking from those cracks. But I have been using it thin and have not been making very large beads. And the only ones that tore free while winding on were mandrels dried in the open kiln door not in the open air, and frankly I don't think they had dried as completely as they should.

In my experience, tapping excess release off the mandrels before drying them gives a more consistently thin, even coating on the mandrel, whether you do single or double dips. So I was dipping the mandrel in the UBR, tapping it against the side of the container about a quarter inch from the tip, then tapping it straight down on the inside of the lid. This shook extra release down to the end of the mandrel again, and it did not drip down the mandrels or pool up unevenly on them anymore. Thus, even coverage. And fewer tears and cracks. And all the excess stays in, or goes back in, the jar.

FWIW...

Oh, and it sounds like upping the silica may be a good idea for a more all-purpose, one-size-fits-most approach? <3

[GlassGalore]

Based on this >

I private messaged the few people from this thread that was experiencing issues with UBR cracking before it was dry and popping off the mandrels and asked them if they would be willing to receive a sample of “mix A” to compare with UBR. All three agreed to do a test for us. I also sent a few samples to beadmakers that already really liked UBR.

We just received word from the three testers that experienced trouble with UBR and the results are good. None of the three experienced any cracking or popping issues with “mix A”. The few testers that already liked UBR reported that “mix A” seemed to perform a bit better than UBR as well.

I think that reformulating to Mix A sounds like it may be the right track. However, I hope that it doesn't make removal of the bead from the mandrel or the cleaning of the bead hole ANY more tough than it is currently, else I'd have to shop around again.

[Planet Glass Products]

One of our UBR testers makes a lot of 3" long beads... she has had troubles getting some of her beads off the mandrel with UBR. She wrote me to say that she is now breaking the bead loose and sliding off the mandrel before any soaking (or exposing to water in any way)... She said that she was very shocked at how easily the beads come off with this technique.

Of coarse we need to be mindful that there is some silica in release that is hazardous in dry (respirable) form... so a good mask or great ventilation is suggested.... She still cleans the bead holes under water.

[polka dottie]

Tim, I look forward to hearing about the latest results from the testers. Lisa and I have had the same experience with UBR. I dip my mandrels, tap them and make sure the release has dripped off the tip, then I let them air dry for a full 24 to 48 hours before using them. I have had slight cracks when I am working but without incident and no problem whatsoever with completing my bead. I find my beads come off the mandrel just fine. My only problem, like Lisa's, is getting the bead release cleaned out of the hole. I use a dremel with a diamond bit to clean them but the release is resistant to coming out. Will the new mix have this problem?

[2tumblingdragonz]

I've not been having the cracking issues with either mix. Bead removal is stiff. I soak and use a little scrubbie to get the release off and then I use lockjaw pliers to hold mandrel and then a towel around the bead and twist. Longest bead I've tried is just shy of 2". I'll see if I can do a long one or two today.
Weather has been hot and humid so the central ac has been running.
I think the cracking I was having was when the ac was not on.
I also have been tapping, not in the jar, but on the table. that could be the difference?
I'll dip some and not tap today.
thanks Tim and everybody.
angel blessings
namaste
Rowyn

[patienthand]

I got this recently and dipped my mandrels sevral weeks ago, just havent been in the shop.. today I tried a few... here is something I figured out pretty quick...

if I brought the mandrel too close to the flame as I drove off the moisture it cracked right away, if I did it further back, it was fine

[Planet Glass Products]

Originally Posted by polka dottie

My only problem, like Lisa's, is getting the bead release cleaned out of the hole. I use a dremel with a diamond bit to clean them but the release is resistant to coming out. Will the new mix have this problem?

Lisa has been kind enough to A/B test the mixes for us and let us know how they compare when it comes to bead removal and the cleaning holes. It will be a week or so before she receives the sample of "mix A"... My fingers are crossed.

[mz glitz]

I am in dry West texas. I tried two different times with my new release and had alot of trouble with cracking and flaking, lost several big beads. I gave up. I was so excited to see all the great comments about it but it did not work for me.

[Rareripes]

I have Fusion from Mike Frantz..it is wonderful! Its very easy to remove the beads with minimal soak and I hardly ever have cracked release when torching.I also have some brand new fosterfire I bartered for just to try that as well..but haven't yet.I am super happy with Fusion.

[DreamMuse]

I live in NY and I like Universal Bead Release a lot. I watered mine down so it's pretty thin, and I pull the mandrels out slowly. It looks translucent at that point; I can see the mandrels through the release. When it dries, it's opaque and looks like a thicker coating. I thinned it with tap water, even though the recommendation was to thin it with distilled water.

I don't heat the mandrel to glowing before I apply the glass. I rotate the mandrel under the flame until the release gets to be a darker gray, and then it's hot enough to add glass. When I'm done making the bead, I give the bead one final heat soak, then I make sure to heat the mandrel in the flame on either side of the bead, and everywhere there is bare bead release, before putting it in the kiln.

When the bead comes out, all the bare bead release flakes right off, and I don't have any trouble getting the bead off. If I forget that last step, the bare bead release has to be washed off or scraped off, and the bead is usually harder to get off.

[SerendipityArtGlass]

I have also had problems with UBR cracking and flaking off. Mandrels are dipped and air dried 24 to 48 hours. I also tried flame dry..and BION it seemed to work better for me.

[2tumblingdragonz]

Still no cracking with either blend for me. I do need elbow grease to get it off the mandrels with a scrubbie but it's cleaning out of the bead holes nicely.

I'm stumped, but thrilled that I'm not having any cracking anymore.

namaste
Rowyn

[devonlynn]

This morning was my first time using UBR and I was so frustrated that I had to quit. I was able to make only 5 beads in 2 hrs. 45 min. where the release did not crack. These were relatively small beads and no beadroller used that would crack the release.

The release was the same consistency as the Foster that I use, so I figured it would be okay. I dipped these 3 days ago. There were no cracks on any of the mandrels before I started using them. In fact, the coating was extremely smooth on the mandrel.

I am really bummed. The batch number is 106. After reading some posts I will thin out the UBR to see if that will work better. I'm hoping....

Devon

[Flame Ryder]

When I was at Franz I bought the large bottle and it is still 98% full.

It has flaked, cracked and broken a lot so I just gave up on it and went back to KRAG Mud and BoM.

Should have know better and just stick with what works rather than looking for something else.

Mike...

[Lisi]

I have this bead release and it's really good! Not as easy to get the beads off as the KRAG Mudd, but easier than Fusion and Dip n' Go Sludge. It's stronger so it would be great for boro, I'm sure.

[jennilee]

I also have batch #106 and I can't use it without it cracking and flaking and ruining beads. I have given it several tries just to make sure it wasn't me. Glad I only bought the small 4oz bottle. Very disappointed