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Safety -- Make sure you are safe!

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  #1  
Old 2011-05-28, 8:42pm
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Default Barley Box Confusion

My husband and I have been working on some plans for ventilation. We saw this: http://www.artglassanswers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=90 thread and were going to follow those instructions. We went out to look for all the supplies and to price everything out and he expressed some concerns with the sturdiness of the foam board. I told him if he wanted to build something else, I was fine with that but, it needs to be tried and true plans.

One of the things that has me most confused about the plans in the link I posted is the flex ducting. He uses flex ducting but everyone I have seen post
in here says DO NOT use flex ducting. This could pose a big problem for me. Also, all the talk of squirrel fans but the link says a box fan is sufficient... It's getting me really confused right now.

I have a wooden table that is 3ft long by 2ft deep. I have a piece of sheet metal on top with screws and washers holding it down. I would like to build the barley box to fit right on top bracing it to the table OR, I could measure the material 1" longer and screw it in directly to the ledge. I am okay with either way.

I am unsure how tall to make it and I know I need a baffle. This is all good for me and I want to make it right. Then comes the actual ventilation and ducting. I have a couple of options but, I was HOPING that I could do a box fan method especially now that flex ducting is out. I live in an apartment so I don't have a lot of choices as far as building in something permanent so I need good ventilation that won't be hard to move later on.

I will be running a Cricket with an oxycon and my propane will be outside my window while I work and hooked back up to barbecue when I am not *laughs* I have a total of five windows in my room in an L-shape and I am hoping to do a box fan method right up again the small part of the L. I am not opposed to doing a squirrel fan but, at the moment, it's a bit cost prohibitive.

How much of the above link can I push forward with doing? Instead of the Foam board, can I use plywood covered in sheet metal against the back or will I need to cover the entire inside with sheet metal? For the time being, I am going to be using my HotHead until I get new hoses for my Cricket and figure out how well I can get a barley box to work.

Thanks for any and all input.

--Monica
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  #2  
Old 2011-05-29, 8:25am
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Dale M. Dale M. is offline
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Ok.... First though its called by some a "Barley Box" (because it first appeared in use by Michael Barley) its actually a "fume cabinet" that came along in the industrial/medical/scientific communities long before adapted to glass work.

As for using a "box fan" as opposed to a "squirrel cage" blower, if you build a unit and place large box fan at back end of unit and if fan is up against a open window (fan must be sealed to window frame), there is nothing wrong with concept.... Many box fans (20 inch size) can flow up to 1250 cfm (or more) on high speed (assuming a 3 speed unit)... Its all about air flow and how fan is placed.... Also remember your make up air source (replacement air) coming into studio has to be an equal amount as the air being extracted from studio or the "ventilation concept" is useless...

As for construction of "cabinet" it can be non-flammable foam board, sheet metal or maybe a modified (cut down) cabinet from discarded appliance (old clothes drier) or plywood or clear Lexan (plastic ) sheeting... The main concept is it is a way to channel the air flow, it has to direct the incoming fresh air flow in such a way it comes into room basically from behind you and over your shoulders and around your head and through cabinet and out of cabinet into the outside where nature can dilute the NOX and CO gasses into their more harmless parts... Cabinet does not have to be build like a "army tank" but it has to have enough rigidity to be self supporting or secured to wall so it will not come crashing down while you are working at torch. If it supports a blower (on top) yes you have to consider the weight and vibration factor of the blower... Remember its only a way to channel air flow and not anything "structural"...

As for ducting and squirrel cage fans, if your fume cabinet does not use a box fan in back end, yes you need other type of fan/blower and some sort of duct work... Selecting a fan becomes a art form when getting fan with proper amount of air flow and way to connect it to any duct work. Ideally using rigid metal ducting is the way to go and there is charts and formulas for selecting fan size and duct size to get air flow up into a safe level and not cause air to move through ventilation like a uncontrollable hurricane... While most people speak against flex duct (and I am not a great fan of it) it has its uses and places.... First it has to be the small ribbed metal type not not the wire and vinyl type found in clothes dryers and home air ducts. There is to much resistance to air flow (static pressure)... Do not use 4 inch dryer ducting it is to small. IF you can get metallic flex duct in 8-10 inch size and with small ribs and you size fan accordingly you can get proper air flow and have a safe effective system...

Whole concept is just "moving air"...

Dale
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Old 2011-05-29, 2:28pm
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Dale: Okay! Thank you for all that. I think I am going to go the box fan route. Right now it is the simplest, most inexpensive and portable way for me to go. I am not crazy about having to find a way to support ducting.

If we were to use plywood and paint the inside with flame retardant paint, would that be flame proof enough? I have read in safety on LE and in the link above that even galvanize metal can produce fumes if heated too much. Home Depot doesn't carry foil covered foam board and Lowe's only carries foam board covered on one side.
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Old 2011-05-29, 3:11pm
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If you have enough heat to burn plywood, and heat galvanized sheet metal to a point it is smoking or off gassing fumes, you should have realized long before that you are in trouble.....

Dale
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Old 2011-05-29, 3:14pm
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Ummm. Okay. Thanks?
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  #6  
Old 2011-05-31, 7:01am
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I used solar board (like what they use for solar shield roofing) which has heavy foil attached to the plywood on one side. I have acrylic on the front. I simply cut a hole in the top, lined it with weatherstripping, and sat an 8inch inline fan (600 CFU) in the top. That's attached to 8inch flex duct that goes straight out a window about 18" away. Works very well for me.
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  #7  
Old 2011-06-05, 5:20am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale M. View Post
If you have enough heat to burn plywood, and heat galvanized sheet metal to a point it is smoking or off gassing fumes, you should have realized long before that you are in trouble.....

Dale
In other words your torch is out of place or your fume hood is undersized. Both of which you should realize are a problem early on...

One good choice for hood material that is not supporting much weight is concrete backer board. The kind used behind tile floors/walls. It's combustion point is so high as to be fire proof in this application. It can be joined with metal angel brackets and bolts.

You should have a fire extinguisher within reach while torching inside. Try to keep it off the floor, that way you can keep an eye on any fire while getting the extinguisher. Think about what is combustible in the area and put the extinguisher in a different area. You don't wand to have to reach into flames to get it. (yah, I know, common sense stuff, but overlooked way to often)

One other thing to consider is the torch table height. Make sure your table is high enough to stand or sit at. Most windows will allow you to set up so this is possible. if you have to make a choice between standing or sitting, pick standing. It's better for your health and weight http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=192944
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Old 2011-06-05, 9:23am
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This is the Barley box my hubby made for me. We used MDF covered in Aluminum flashing. I have a piece of plexiglass that comes down with just enough room for my elbows to go in. I think the plexiglass that low was overkill since I cant reach the back of my box! We got rigid ducting at lowes. I have make up air coming in behind me via an open door.

Here is a picture
http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=186713

Hope that helps a little. I really like my box!
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Old 2011-06-05, 12:25pm
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This is the box setup I built for the studio in our old house. It is framed with 2x4s and the back is cement tile backer board (Hardie Backer). The sides and top are sheet metal used for roof flashing. It was fairly inexpensive and quick to build.

http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=64554

Cheers,
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  #10  
Old 2011-06-05, 4:13pm
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Paul> Your "Ghetto" setup is actually pretty cool.

Caroline> That is REALLY nice. I love it. Last night we were at Home depot about to buy supplies when my husband started talking to a sales person. The sales person convinced him he needed different supplies. Not to be a jerk but, the guy didn't really understand what we were trying to do and he barely spoke English. Yet, my husband felt it necessary to consider his suggestions. I was so ticked and decided against buying supplies last night.


Tom & Paul> Do you all think that if I were to use a box fan for my exhaust that my 24" table depth would be deep enough? I think I have enough scrap lumber around to make a "ghetto" set up. I would just need to get some flashing. My worktable is 24" deep by 36" wide. If I built up the sides to 30" high, do you think I have enough workspace to keep things from warming up? I know that if things warm up that "I have other problems to worry about". but, I just want to make sure that I don't start building something that isn't going to be good right off the bat. The dimensions I have to work with are based on a table I have and the space I have to work with. I don't have a whole lot more flexibility space-wise.

thanks for your help!
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Old 2011-06-06, 7:52am
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YEs a box 24 inches deep is large enough... And for the most part it is not the heat produced from the torch that is worrisome, and almost any air flow will carry the heat away..... Its the carbon monoxide (CO) and Nitrogen oxides (NOX) created by the combustion process that is the major concern and these combustion by products are the thing that cause health issues and the main concert is to evacuate these things from your breathing space..

The main item here is create a controlled environment for fresh air flow into your breathing space and evacuation of the combustion by products, of course the more flame proof the materials used to accomplish this the better, but its not the main criteria in constriction of proper ventilation...

Perhaps some more reading...

http://www.artglassanswers.com/forum...php?f=22&t=150

Dale
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Last edited by Dale M.; 2011-06-06 at 7:55am.
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Old 2011-06-13, 10:51am
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Default Temp increases

As Dale says too many people get the idea that ventilation is about getting rid of the heat and forget that in the case of glass working it's more about getting rid of nasty byproducts. Below is a pic of my setup. I use a Kabuki torch. It's a big torch. It has three flame rings and shoots a flame out 3 feet when full on. My hood is aprox 34 in above the bench top. After 5 to 10 minutes of full flame the hood metal temp only raises about 10 degrees; still cool enough you can lay your cheek against it without any discomfort (actually it feels rather good).

PJH
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Old 2011-06-13, 11:02am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheng076 View Post
As Dale says too many people get the idea that ventilation is about getting rid of the heat and forget that in the case of glass working it's more about getting rid of nasty byproducts. Below is a pic of my setup. I use a Kabuki torch. It's a big torch. It has three flame rings and shoots a flame out 3 feet when full on. My hood is aprox 34 in above the bench top. After 5 to 10 minutes of full flame the hood metal temp only raises about 10 degrees; still cool enough you can lay your cheek against it without any discomfort (actually it feels rather good).

PJH
I have seen this set up before while I was looking through safety and I REALLY like it. I just don't think I will be able to mount it into the wall. I am in a rental and need everything to leave as little damage to walls as possible. I already have a lot of pictures and art on the walls, I am thinking this would mar up the wall something fierce.

But, I do love it. It's exactly what I envisioned making.

--Monica
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Old 2011-06-13, 12:37pm
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You could make something like this, bench mounted, there is no rule it has to hang off wall or ceiling... That is beauty of fume cabinet.... Put it up against a window and vent out top of window with a simple box fan.... Some 20 inch box fans have up to 2000cfm on "high" position...

Excellent example of what can be done here.....

http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=197831

Just tailor cabinet dimensions to fit your situation....

Dale
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Last edited by Dale M.; 2011-06-13 at 12:41pm.
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Old 2011-06-19, 10:49am
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Wow, thanks Dale! That is my cabinet. We took notes from all of your threads and that is what we came up with. I can't tell you how helpful all of the things you share have been! I should mention we sealed that fan into the window with canned spray insulation. The fan can be removed now that it is dry, but it fits in like a puzzle piece nice and tight. Once we did that, the fan pulled so much more air. It made all the difference in the world.

Last edited by Mountain Snail; 2011-06-19 at 10:57am.
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