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Jelveh Designs - Glass Beads Torched One-by-One

Beads of Courage


 

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Safety -- Make sure you are safe!

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  #1  
Old 2010-04-15, 6:02am
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Arrow Disoriented, Chest Hurts, Need Help Please

A brief history: The first time I torched was with a professional studio w/ great ventilation oxycon and nat. gas. I was fine. The next 5 times or so I torched at a different place that had no (NO) ventilation, an oxycon and tanked propane. I would get a headache and disoriented. The last time I became really sick, totally out of it, couldn't even remember my way home at first. So I stopped going there.

My husband built me a studio in the basement, had a custom hood made for me with sides that we metal taped to the table and an 850 cfm squirrel cage fan. The problem (I thought) was that our appliances were gas and I didn't feel like I was getting enough make up air from the open window vs. the amount of fumes that were being sucked by the hood from the appliances. Same feeling - headache, disoriented, chest hurt. So I stopped torching for about a year and a half. I was using an oxycon and natural gas and I tried the incense trick which got sucked right up and out the hood.

This past weekend we moved the studio up to the garage. Same set up as the basement except that I now use tanked propane. I also open the garage door for make up air. I thought I was golden. HOWEVER....I'm back to the disorientation and heavy feeling in my chest after torching. This set up functions even better - I can actually feel the cool air from the garage air moving past my face to go up the hood. Incense trick passed fabulously.

So my question is, what is wrong? Why do I keep feeling this way? I thought about contacting the lady who taught me and seeing if I could buy some time on her set up to test if I feel this way even on hers, because the first time I didn't. What should I do? Help!
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  #2  
Old 2010-04-15, 6:18am
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Are you remembering to actually breath.....

I can't give a specific answer, but it you have checked system over several time and are completely confident it is working not only incense test but smoke test, them maybe its not your ventilation, but you are having a bad reaction to something in the "process"....

Have you had your blood tested recently for any build up of heavy metals or anything adverse to your "normal" condition, have you actually consulted with a medical person about this condition..... Sounds to me as if you are suffering from a form of oxygen starvation or carbon monoxide poising....

I think for a start some research, maybe starting with site below is in order.....

http://www.carbon-monoxide-poisoning.com/

I think next thing is to do is see a doctor and discuss situation, then do some really exhaustive testing on your ventilation with some "heavy" smoke sources....

Dale
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  #3  
Old 2010-04-15, 6:25am
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Hmmmmm. Read the article from the link you posted. Sounds a lot like how I feel. I did forget to mention that I have a CO2 detector that I actually hung on my hood at face level but it never went off. I think what I need to do is get my hands on a pulse ox and check myself out when torching. I have a few friends in the medical community so I think I can get one to borrow for an evening. Thanks for answering, Dale. My husband and I frequently refer to your articles and postings. Oh, and I know it sounds silly, but I've actually thought to myself, "Am I breathing right? Am I holding my breath??" LOL
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Old 2010-04-15, 6:42am
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Something else to keep in mind is body posture while torching. Sometimes we hold ourselves in a "fixed" position while we torch....or.....we are relying on our back/side/chest muscles to hold us erect and to hold our arms in an unusual, forward, elevated position for hours. This isn't our natural posture.

The results of this can be myofascial trigger points in the muscles of our back/upper back/chest and sides....all of which can produce a tightness in the chest as well as shortness of breath and etc.

It's important to take breaks when we torch, to stretch out...much like we should do if we sit at a computer all day long. Some type of arm support...something to rest your elbows on when you torch would also be really helpful....if your problem is muscular/posture related.

You could ask hubby to do a massage on back,side and chest muscles ()...and if he comes across any really sore spots....he can compress those for about 15 seconds. Trigger points will be really tender...but you can work them out.

Just thought I'd add that bit of info to the already great recommendations.

I do believe that proper ventilation is priority one when we torch...sounds like you've got it covered....but I'll leave that to the others to comment on.
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  #5  
Old 2010-04-15, 7:09am
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Based on what you posted, and if your hood is on the order of three feet wide and about 2.5 feet above the table, I would suspect that your vent system is sized about right. That said, I second Dale on doing a smoke test - the smoke should get pulled into the exit of your hood in less than 2 seconds (hard to measure with incense). If not, you might be exposed to more fumes than you realize. Also, is the torch completely under the hood? If not, fumes may be exposed to eddy currents in the area around you and you might be getting some 'blow-back'.

Are you working with heavily silvered glass (like DH and TAG), fuming, doing skeleton keys or working with copper inclusions? If so, you might want to see your doctor (probably a good idea anyway) and get checked for heavy metal poisoning.

Some folks are much more sensitive to the fumes produced by the combustion of the torch fuel and to the metals present in the glass and in anything special they are doing. You might be one of those. There are several members here on LE who find they need to take extra precautions above and beyond superb ventilation. They wear P/N100 face masks and cover their skin to the greatest extent possible, for example.

I hope you discover what's causing your symptoms. Please let us know how you are doing and if we can continue to help in any way.

Linda
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  #6  
Old 2010-04-15, 9:15am
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You also may be leaning into the "zone" The area that is around your flame. A lot of people find when their eyes change and they need prescription or readers to see close up they hover over/closer to the torch to see what they are doing.

Also they hover closer in for small detail work.

You can also try wearing a respirator. I wear one all of the time, because I am extra sensitive to fumes of any kind.

Good luck and please tell us what you discover as it could help other lampworkers too..
Lorraine
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  #7  
Old 2010-04-15, 6:31pm
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One other thing to check is the setting on your propane regulator? What is your gas setting? It should be about 1 lb. of propane and about 15 lbs of oxygen. If it is set higher, you're letting too much propane out into the air around you.
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Old 2010-04-15, 7:36pm
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Originally Posted by Melanie_M View Post
One other thing to check is the setting on your propane regulator? What is your gas setting? It should be about 1 lb. of propane and about 15 lbs of oxygen. If it is set higher, you're letting too much propane out into the air around you.
Not so....... IF to much propane is coming through torch you have big giant bushy out of control yellow flame..... And any propane going though torch valve is ultimately under the "volume" control of valve irregardless of supply pressure.... The only real issue is if pressure is to high it makes the torch valve more sensitive to adjustment....

Typically for soft glass (soda lime) propane is 1 psi for for every 3 psi of oxygen... So if oxygen is at 15 psi, propane should be at 5 psi....

For boro it is recommended that you use 1 psi of propane to ever 2 psi of oxygen.... So if you are at 15 psi oxygen, propane should be at 7.5 psi...

IF you have a regulator that is real funky at very low pressures 0-3 psi, it is also recommended to bump it up to 6-7-8 psi no matter how oxygen is set....

Dale
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  #9  
Old 2010-04-15, 8:38pm
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Some of us do strange things while we torch - hold our breath, grind our teeth, forget to blink etc etc. The mind is also very powerful. Not to negate the safety aspect of this, but maybe this is related to your previous bad experience and your brain just sees that torch lit and causes your body to react.
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  #10  
Old 2010-04-16, 6:25am
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I went through this too back in 2005 and found that my torch was not close enough to being under my hood and I was getting "blow back". Check via the smoke test and you might be surprised...

I hope you find the solution, it is frustrating and definitely scary!
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  #11  
Old 2010-04-16, 12:20pm
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Maybe your o2 concentrator isn't up to snuff?
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Old 2010-04-16, 1:26pm
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Maybe your o2 concentrator isn't up to snuff?
That will only effect flame, has noting to do with respiratory distress or studio ventilation.....

Dale
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  #13  
Old 2010-04-16, 5:38pm
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Last night I tried wearing an N95 mask and made sure to back up between putting glass on the mandrel and centering the bead. I'm a hoverer, I get right up on the bead. I'm also thinking that perhaps my torch is too close to the edge. Thanks so much for all the great tips everyone!
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  #14  
Old 2010-04-16, 5:39pm
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BTW.....what's the deal with the regulator anyway? I have one on my propane tank and it always stays the same, never moves, neither gauge. It's brand new, just got it from Howaco. Doesn't seem broke or anything. I'm thinking I just don't know how to work it since this is my first time with a regulator. Tips anyone?
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Old 2010-04-16, 7:19pm
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Pressure in propane tank is a function of temperature..... Since propane is a liquid, it take temperature to boil it off the liquid into a vapor .... Vapor is what you draw off to power torch.... As long as temperature is constant and there is liquid in tank to produce vapor, tank pressure will stay constant.... Only time(s) you will see drop in tank pressure is if tank gets colder or your are at the "VERY END of the tank" (almost no liquid left in tank).... You will see a rise in pressure as temperature rises (as long as there is liquid in tank)..

Note temperature vs. pressure on chart below...

http://www.flameengineering.com/Propane_Info.html

As for the output gauge it will not move UNLESS you change the pressure adjustment of regulator or bleed the line down then it should drop to zero...

Dale
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Old 2010-04-17, 2:14pm
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Cool, thanks Dale. I'm getting the hang of this....
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Old 2010-04-22, 6:51am
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I've been wearing the N95 mask and torching everyday since last week. I don't feel "out of it" anymore since wearing the mask, but what I did notice today is that my lungs feel congested. Every night after shutting down my chest feels heavy. I'm going to do several things to abate this issue this weekend:

1. Move the torch further under the hood
2. Add a piece of plexiglass to the hood area that is right in front of my face to prevent me from hovering.
3. Forgot about a real smoke test but will do that tonight and post the results and maybe even pics if there's a real problem.

I use regular coe 104 glass in transparent & opaque, no heavy metals, no fuming. Garage door is all the way up. I would go to my doctors, but I live in a small town and I'm most certain they'd look at me like I had 3 eyes. I am considering borrowing a pulse oximeter from a friend to test my blood oxygen levels when I torch, but I have a feeling that it's a buildup of something in my lungs. Either propane or glass fumes. The last thing I want to do is shorten my life span from making beads. Anyhoo, I'm going with propane blowback. My other idea is to use a floor stand fan behind me to encourage any blowback fumes/propane to go up instead of back onto me. Adding the plexiglass "hover protector" might do the trick. I swear, I've been at "perfecting" my ventilation literally since spring 2007.

Thanks for hanging in w/ me everyone, and for all the great, valuable advice.









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Old 2010-04-22, 7:59am
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You need a N100 or P100 respirator.
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Old 2010-04-22, 9:28am
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Other than fan/blower "looks" a little small for hood opening..... I don't really see anything that sets off any alarm bells.....

The idea of a second fan blowing air into your breathing space is probably not a really good idea.... IT can possibly cause a turbulence that will actually cause the "bad" air to come out of the hood and cause more problems.... Generally a single fan is all that is really needed in "system" so air flow is in a sustained direction, usually into the low pressure area caused by the fan in hood chamber.....

Dale
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Old 2010-04-22, 11:07am
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The symptoms you mention point to some form of contamination that is getting inhaled. As Dale says in one of his posts it is unlikely that it is propane. A product of combustion or contaminate from the glass is most likely. Go in that direction first... do a smoke test with the torch lit and you in working position and watch carefully for eddy currents and flow directions. It looks like you are in a garage; are there things in the garage that the fan may be pulling toward you and concentrating around you such as paint, lawnmower gas, lawn chemicals, cleaning chemicals, etc.?

You may be one of those that are very sensitive to torching "fumes" so keep looking and you'll find the culprit.
PJH
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Old 2010-04-22, 11:35am
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If you are in a garage, is there a gas water heater or a gas fired furnace in there with you?.....

Dale
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Old 2010-04-22, 11:52am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Truewealth View Post
Something else to keep in mind is body posture while torching. Sometimes we hold ourselves in a "fixed" position while we torch....or.....we are relying on our back/side/chest muscles to hold us erect and to hold our arms in an unusual, forward, elevated position for hours. This isn't our natural posture.

The results of this can be myofascial trigger points in the muscles of our back/upper back/chest and sides....all of which can produce a tightness in the chest as well as shortness of breath and etc.

It's important to take breaks when we torch, to stretch out...much like we should do if we sit at a computer all day long. Some type of arm support...something to rest your elbows on when you torch would also be really helpful....if your problem is muscular/posture related.

You could ask hubby to do a massage on back,side and chest muscles ()...and if he comes across any really sore spots....he can compress those for about 15 seconds. Trigger points will be really tender...but you can work them out.

Just thought I'd add that bit of info to the already great recommendations.

I do believe that proper ventilation is priority one when we torch...sounds like you've got it covered....but I'll leave that to the others to comment on.
Before I scrolled down to read this post, I was going in the same direction. It sounded like you have a decent set-up and taken all the precautions. However, what are you doing for yourself???

Take into consideration what you have eaten, have you stretched, and your posture. If you don't have a well balanced diet, it can affect many things like the function of our brain and our body. Are you drinking enough water? Lampworking is very dehydrating. Are you on any medications? Side affects?

Depending on posture our body may not be used to how we are positioned for working at the torch. With our hands and arms propped out in front of us, it can create tension in our head, neck and shoulders. This can cause lots of issues like head ache, dizziness, strain, which can lead us to hold our breath too. I don't have one, but I like the idea of the creation station. It looks like a great way to balance out some of the weight from our arms.

Where is your mind when you torch? Are you at ease, or a bit nervous? Take this into consideration, if we are uptight it takes a toll on our body. I know when I get a bit in over my head on a glass piece, I certainly tense up and have to take a break after. Stretch!


One last idea, if we have feet or jaw issues, this affects many things in between like your knees, hips, back, neck, head, etc. If you are clenching your teeth wile working, this could be an issue. If being mindful to relax your jaw doesn't work, look into a splint/appliance like a night guard, or sports guard for your teeth.

(I went toward this direction because I'm a dental assistant, and I work in a medical office. I'm also a strong believer in chiropractic.)

Hope you find your answer and have lots of fun making your glass.
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Old 2010-04-22, 4:48pm
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I'm with PJ, Dale and Lorraine - your set up looks good, and other than what might be some leaks at the expander you have between your fan and hood at the hood (in the pics, it looks like the tape joints might have broken), you're perhaps either leaning into the flame plume without realizing it, as Lorraine suggests, or you may be pulling fumes in and from behind you from somewhere in the garage, as PJ and Dale suggest. I think your torch is sufficiently under the leading edge of the hood for the fan to pull the fumes, but it would be wise for you to do the smoke test. You may have an eddy current from the open garage door doing something unexpected to the air flow.

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Old 2010-04-22, 9:20pm
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Moonglow, just a thought here from my own experiences - do you keep your mouth open when you torch? Like, breathe through your mouth or sing, etc? I finally realized I was hanging over the torch singing with the radio merrily inhaling all sorts of stuff. I backed up and shut my mouth (always a good practice for me, lol) and the headaches and dizziness went away.
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Old 2010-04-23, 6:13am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale M. View Post
If you are in a garage, is there a gas water heater or a gas fired furnace in there with you?.....

Dale
This occurred to me as well. My husband insists I turn the furnace off while I'm torching because every time the furnace turns on it affects the air movement in the area. He said I could get carbon monoxide poisoning.

I do have return fresh air but it doesn't seem to be enough, and the furnace is quite large AND it's right beside my torch area.
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Old 2010-04-23, 8:59am
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I did the smoke test with a rolled up piece of newspaper and the smoke got sucked up the hood in a matter of a second or two.

No water heater or any appliances.

I SING! I sing the entire time I torch. So tonight, I'll try torching without singing and post my results. I've always sang while I torched.

AND.....I'm a tense, teeth clencher, so maybe when I'm not singing I'm clenching or grinding. Thanks for the wonderful advice everyone!
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Old 2010-04-23, 8:22pm
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When I used to sing out loud in the car (where no one can hear me, lol) I would find myself feeling light-headed and tight-chested. That would last for hours, and eventually it didn't go away at all. I quit singing and paid attention to a regular breathing rhythm, and everything did get better.

I'm hoping this is the case for you!
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Old 2010-04-27, 10:01am
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Have you consulted your dentist about clenching? Believe it or not, this can trigger many areas of your life. I encourage anyone who clenches or grinds to wear a night splint for many reasons, and if you are clenching at other activities, you may want to wear it then too.

Clenching can cause TMJ, jaw pain, headaches, stress in the forehead (and wrinkles), tightness in the neck, shoulders, back. This then can trigger breathing issues, shaky hands, vision, acid reflux, bad posture, fatigue, etc.

Please look into it, google it. And find a good dr who will do a good job treating or helping you. There are good and bad dentists out there, listen to your gut, and interview a few to see who you feel is good for you. Ask me how I know this!!!!!!
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  #29  
Old 2010-04-29, 6:56am
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AVTrout AVTrout is offline
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Oh I'm one step ahead of you....I've been wearing a custom mouth guard for almost a year!

I've woke up with headaches since I was 20 years old (I'm 35 now). Last year when I went to the dentist, he noted that my front teeth were starting to wear down and again recommended I get a mouth guard for sleeping, so I took the $280 plunge and did it. For about 10 months I had no morning headaches! It was awesome! Lately though I've been waking up with the horrible morning headaches I had for literally over a decade. Mouth guard looks perfectly fine, albeit a smidge worn down, but nothing drastic. It's one of the clear acrylic kinds. And I do find myself clenching off and on during the day.
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Old 2010-04-29, 9:38am
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Lorraine Chandler Lorraine Chandler is offline
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My main concern is your lungs. You seem to have taken care of the other areas. If your chest still feels tight you are doing or not doing something your lungs need.

I tried wearing a mask but it didn't get a good seal and I would still feel the tightness. Maybe you could purchase a half mask respirator at Auto Zone or a paint store with the cartridges with N-100 or P100 and see if that helps any better. It's hard to sing with a mask on. Maybe you could hum?

When I am doing silver foils, silver glasses, enamels or even frits etc. I wear a full face and when I remove it after torching I feel the same as when I started. That is the goal for me to feel the same after torching as when I started.

I have spent 4 years tweeking my studio and I just nailed it a few days ago got it where I am happy with it. So don't give up.

The answers are there for your lungs too. I am with you on the safety part, my lungs are precious to me and I will treat them with the utmost respect and care.

Lorraine
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