Did something stupid and paying for it

[Dale M.]

Originally Posted by squid

I don't think anyone wants flowers, blah blah blah, but being pretty much told you're an idiot when you've already posted your acknowledgement of being stupid - ie "I did a stupid thing" - is unneccessary and doesn't further the discussion or encourage people to ask questions.

Perhaps then the SAFETY forum should be abolished and people can continue to harm themselves out of their ignorance on how to protect themselves from invisible dangers and toxics involved in lampworling...

This is pretty much how a safety forum is... We tell it like it is...

Dale

[Peach Blossom Beads]

I know I'll get flamed for this but... Dale is right. Because it seems no matter how many times or how many ways you say it, people still think they can get away with something else. They still seem to think that not doing it right is ok.

Color Happy posted that they made a mistake, yes, great. But them went on to say, in a later post, that they thought a box fan would work. WTF?? So still, all the harping just didn't seem to be getting thru. Is it now? I don't know. I hope so. I'd hate to see her get really sick. It's almost like she needs a bit of "mothering" on the subject. (sorry - I can't think of a better word but don't want that to sound condescending.)

Color Happy - ask your questions. There are a lot of us reading this thread and we really want to help. No one is going to be rude to you. Please ask because we want you to be safe. But also, take the answers for what they are - true information based on science that will save your life.

[evilglass]

Originally Posted by Bear Rampant Glass

I know this probably sounds like a cop-out, but I just wanted to say that I have a baby that demands a lot of my attention most of the time. So, if my post seemed unfriendly or terse it was absolutely not meant to and I wholeheartedly apologize. It is just difficult to type around grasping fingers sometimes. I think it took a lot of guts to own up to what happened and ask for help to understand and correct the problem. I hope you get your situation fixed and get back to having fun torching.

You weren't one of the ones that prompted my statement

[dpglassworks]

Originally Posted by squid

Thanks for the lesson Jeff!

I'll add a vote for not bashing someone who is posting a mea culpa to begin with .

\


I vote for not bashing too

The cool thing about LE is that everybody here is always so helpful, but if we make it hard for somebody to come here and ask for help then we could see many more injuries in the future.....

[evilglass]

Originally Posted by Dale M.

Perhaps then the SAFETY forum should be abolished and people can continue to harm themselves out of their ignorance on how to protect themselves from invisible dangers and toxics involved in lampworling...

This is pretty much how a safety forum is... We tell it like it is...

Dale

No, Dale, I disagree. You don't need to get rid of a safety forum. You also don't need to rip folks a new asshole when giving them information. You didn't do that. Others did.

My point is simple: do you want folks to listen to you? If yes, you probably ought to *try* to be nice to them. If not, be nasty, rude, and condescending. You'll still be right, and they probably won't listen.

Look, people make mistakes. Happens all the time. They may not have the correct way to do it, even after they recognize an error.

How many people here had everything perfectly safe the first time they torched? Bet it's a small percentage. Folks learn. Ask questions, and *fix* their mistakes.

And very very few people respond well to being told off when they ask a question. I know I sure don't. I asked because I wanted info, not to be told I was irresponsible, and shouldn't be torching.

Here's my recent stupidity:

Was out torching, hubby doing yard work in the back yard. I've got the AC on, the vent on, the music on. He's running a weed wacker and something else off and on.

I hear a "hissing" noise. I turn everything off. listen for the sound more. Nothing. Turn it all on again. Nothing. Few minutes later, hissing noise. Stop again. Turn everything off. Hear weed wacker, and it sounds kind of like the hissing noise, due to how well insulated my studio is. Turned stuff on again, no more hissing noise, except for the weed wacker.

About 25-30 minutes later, caught the scent of propane. Realized I had a headache, and shut it all down. Turned all tanks off, told hubby I thought I had a leak. He checked it, couldn't see an issue, then redid my propane hose at the torch. By this point, I had a raging headache. Presumably, I had a leak and inhaled some propane.

We check the hoses regularly for leaks. Not every torching session, it's not needed.

I've been doing this for years. I made one mistake in that situation. I assumed my husband's weed wacker was the cause of the noise, rather than checking my hoses. I had a reasonable cause for the noise. I *should* have checked the hoses at that point, though when hubby did it, he found no leak. He did redo the hose and put pressure up and had me go in and sniff and check. And he checked all the hoses for leaks again. And we left it with pressure up for like an hour and then checked it all again. Of course, my studio was vented completely a couple of times during this process.

I almost didn't post about it at all, due to the attitude some folks get when replying.

[Kalera]

A box fan can, indeed, be enough... if it's set up in front of your torch, sucking fumes AWAY and blowing them OUTSIDE, and if (BIG IF) you have a makeup air source coming from BEHIND you. It's not the most efficient method because it has to move a whole lot of air in order to be effective, making it impossible to keep your torching area heated or cooled.

A box fan blowing fresh air into your room is not enough. Where is the bad air going to go? With no vent, fumes get mixed with fresh air and recirculated around the room, and you end up breathing it before some of it escapes through various routes. You've basically created a slightly pressurized bad-air tent, if you don't have a vent for the fumes.

As for whether the AC provides sufficient make-up air and data relating to that, maybe this will be helpful: http://home.howstuffworks.com/ac2.htm

In order to be effective a window air conditioner MUST recirculate room air. Most also have the option of bringing in some outside air, but it is only a small amount.

[beadsofpassion]

Just wanted to say... I hope you feel better soon.

[Dale M.]

Originally Posted by evilglass

No, Dale, I disagree. You don't need to get rid of a safety forum. You also don't need to rip folks a new asshole when giving them information. You didn't do that. Others did.

My point is simple: do you want folks to listen to you? If yes, you probably ought to *try* to be nice to them. If not, be nasty, rude, and condescending. You'll still be right, and they probably won't listen.

Look, people make mistakes. Happens all the time. They may not have the correct way to do it, even after they recognize an error.

I'm sorry the safety forum does not read like a Daniel Steel or Harlequin Romance novel........

Obviously you have never read industrial safety manuals.......

And sorry I don't know how to put all the flowers in my comments that you seem to require... I just know how write enough to say what I feel is the best solution for dealing with a problem.....

If you don't appreciate my style either don't read my posts or stop visiting forums I post in..... Because I am probably not going to change.

Dale

[evilglass]

Originally Posted by Dale M.

I'm sorry the safety forum does not read like a Daniel Steel or Harlequin Romance novel........

Obviously you have never read industrial safety manuals.......

And sorry I don't know how to put all the flowers in my comments that you seem to require... I just know how write enough to say what I feel is the best solution for dealing with a problem.....

If you don't appreciate my style either don't read my posts or stop visiting forums I post in..... Because I am probably not going to change.

Dale

I also want to apologize, Dale. My comments about manners did not apply to your responses. Your responses aren't condescending or mean.

I've read technical manuals, and safety manuals. I've yet to see one saying things like

"I do not understand the people that know that they need ventilation and just don't bother"

Or

"Don't torch again until you become responsible enough to do so"

Or

"You don't need "data""

or

"You may not cough til it's too late."

A safety manual would say something like "proper ventilation is required to prevent physical injury due to inhalation of harmful gases"

or

"these are the short term and long term effects of inadequate ventilation and inhalation of harmful fumes"

You know?

[squid]

Originally Posted by evilglass

I also want to apologize, Dale. My comments about manners did not apply to your responses. Your responses aren't condescending or mean.

I've read technical manuals, and safety manuals. I've yet to see one saying things like

"I do not understand the people that know that they need ventilation and just don't bother"

Or

"Don't torch again until you become responsible enough to do so"

Or

"You don't need "data""

or

"You may not cough til it's too late."

A safety manual would say something like "proper ventilation is required to prevent physical injury due to inhalation of harmful gases"

or

"these are the short term and long term effects of inadequate ventilation and inhalation of harmful fumes"

You know?

I agree.

None of the comments about keeping the thread positive were directed at Dale, that I can tell. Straight shooting is good! Condescending and snarky is bad.

[sleekbeads]

Give me a break, Tera.
I am not asking for fluffy feathers and unicorn horns here.
I am simply stating that jumping down the throat of a person coming here to get questions answered is not the only way to handle the situation.
You could have gotten your point across by stating the facts and not being so nasty. Perhaps you don't realize how you come off when you write in that tone, but the guests here can certainly sense it... I can see I'm not the only commenting on it.

Usually, when people treat me like that, I pretty much tell them to fuck off.
If I come here with a solid question, telling a story of something that happened to me, like the original poster did, I would be looking for answers, not sarcasm and personal opinoins of what YOU think of me.

and I'm sure she probably feels the same way.


I mean, really, do you ever stop and look at what you write?
"Don't torch again until you become responsible enough to do so"
Who the hell do you think you are?

And Dale, none of my comments were aimed at you originally, but now that you're acting like a condescending ass, well, take it and run!

[Peach Blossom Beads]

Originally Posted by sleekbeads

Give me a break, Tera.
I am not asking for fluffy feathers and unicorn horns here.
I am simply stating that jumping down the throat of a person coming here to get questions answered is not the only way to handle the situation.
You could have gotten your point across by stating the facts and not being so nasty. Perhaps you don't realize how you come off when you write in that tone, but the guests here can certainly sense it... I can see I'm not the only commenting on it.

Usually, when people treat me like that, I pretty much tell them to fuck off.
If I come here with a solid question, telling a story of something that happened to me, like the original poster did, I would be looking for answers, not sarcasm and personal opinoins of what YOU think of me.

and I'm sure she probably feels the same way.


I mean, really, do you ever stop and look at what you write?
"Don't torch again until you become responsible enough to do so"
Who the hell do you think you are?

And Dale, none of my comments were aimed at you originally, but now that you're acting like a condescending ass, well, take it and run!

Who the fuck are you taking to? I didn't mention fluffy feathers and unicorn stuff. Dale did. Nothing I posted was directed at you either. Do you have to do this every time? When we post in the same thread, you take my post out of all of them and pick it apart. Not to mention you ALWAYS read it wrong! And, when you do reply, it doesn't make any sense! Go away and don't bother talking to me. I'm sick of you. If you don't like my posts then either don't read them or put me on ignore, which is where you're going right now. So don't even bother responding. Nothing you say makes any sense anyway.
How's that for fluffy?

Anyone who doesn't understand why I'm so pissed... well, Joanne has a long history of pulling this & other kinds of crap with me and I've had it! I've asked very simple questions and she's jumped down MY throat for no reason at all. So I don't know what she's complaining about!

And color-happy - I apologize. Apparently everyone here read my post with much more malice and rudeness than was supposed to be there, which is my fault. I'm sincerely worried. Go back and read it again but look at it with concern. Part of it was even supposed to be funny. I always answer question in this forum b/c I like to be helpful. Screw it... I'm not explaining. I meant what I said just not the way everyone took it - damn internet!

ETA: You know, I said this too: "I hate sounding so mean and I think maybe you learned a lesson, which is unfortunate (the WAY you learned it), but I really can't stand seeing people getting sick and don't want to see anyone else die of metal poisoning."

[FourTailsLampwork]

I third, fourth, or fifth the notion of keeping this thread light and civil.

I think, when people say they are using a box fan (as I do), they have something similar to my setup. I torch with my torch facing the open window. In the window sits one of those Holmes twin window fans, set to exhaust (i.e. sending the inside air OUT). Above the fan is a concrete backerboard that I screwed to two pieces of wood, so that it sits above the fan to protect the window (it's never even gotten warm, but ... ) and does not block the fan. Under my workbench is the AC vent for the house. Behind me I have the door to the outside wide open. Unfortunately there's no door between the kitchen and the rest of the house, so I close the hallway door (shutting off the AC thermostat so it doesn't run) and tack up a sheet in the kitchen door way.

Other people with box fans are working in garages. I know a couple who have "window" unit ACs sitting at their feet cooling them off, even though it is virtually outdoors.

Do an incense or paper towel test--burn something where your torch flame is (where you hold the glass in the flame.) If all the smoke goes away and you can't smell the incense, you should be okay.

Of course, I don't fume or work with enamels, not until I can afford a real vent hood, which will be a looooong time away.

[sleekbeads]

Tera, point taken. I really didn't mean to take you down with my comments, but rather show you how it looks when people post like that. As I can recall, we've only gotten into it once before and that was a different thread, different subject. I understand that you may be genuinely concerned for people's safety, and that's a great thing, and I think this is an excellent forum for learning and being safe... it was just the way it sounded. Maybe you didn't mean it the way it sounded.... fine! You accuse me of "reading your post wrong", not sure how that's done. I just read what's in front of me. It sounded a little harsh. Just saying, you catch more bees with honey.
You might get through to someone having safety issues a little better if you come off a little gentler. That's all I'm trying to say. Didn't mean to start a pissing match... and after I thought about it last night, I was really no better for saying the things I did. My apologies to you for that, and to Dale.
I realize that safety is an important issue and am not looking for sugar coating, but perhaps approaching it directly, but nicely would make people recieve your advice a little better. Just MO.

Jo

[squid]

Originally Posted by sleekbeads

Tera, point taken. I really didn't mean to take you down with my comments, but rather show you how it looks when people post like that. As I can recall, we've only gotten into it once before and that was a different thread, different subject. I understand that you may be genuinely concerned for people's safety, and that's a great thing, and I think this is an excellent forum for learning and being safe... it was just the way it sounded. Maybe you didn't mean it the way it sounded.... fine! You accuse me of "reading your post wrong", not sure how that's done. I just read what's in front of me. It sounded a little harsh. Just saying, you catch more bees with honey.
You might get through to someone having safety issues a little better if you come off a little gentler. That's all I'm trying to say. Didn't mean to start a pissing match... and after I thought about it last night, I was really no better for saying the things I did. My apologies to you for that, and to Dale.
I realize that safety is an important issue and am not looking for sugar coating, but perhaps approaching it directly, but nicely would make people recieve your advice a little better. Just MO.

Jo

I too read Tara's post the same way you did, Jo. To me also, she sounded condescending, harsh and belittling of the original poster. Tara, you may not have meant it that way, but that is how it read. I think Jo's post about "do you stop and look at what you write?" is a valid point. I have read a number of posts by you where you appear to be outraged or something similar.

<shrug> So, whatever. I wasn't going to post anything, but decided to after seeing Jo's last post. Her apology doesn't mean she didn't have valid points.

[hawleyclan]

I've got to say, I can definitely see that safety is key.

My hubby worked as a temp at a copper plant for a short time, and in just a few day he started having killer headaches, then about 5 days into it he was puking, pale, and having chilled shakes. After scaring me to death, and then recovering for a weekend, I insisted he take a paint respirator mask- and low and behold, he had no symptoms... but lost the job for wearing it. Turns out that many of the workers there were also ill and puking, but management insisted that the ventilation was up to OSHA standards- what a crock. People getting totally ill just and scared to wear safety gear because they would lose their job.

I know copper isn't glass, but ventilation and safety gear could have saved a lot of people a lot of grief.

Sorry you had this experience in your glassworking studio. Remember, ventilation and safety first.

[Dale M.]

Originally Posted by hawleyclan

I've got to say, I can definitely see that safety is key.

My hubby worked as a temp at a copper plant for a short time, and in just a few day he started having killer headaches, then about 5 days into it he was puking, pale, and having chilled shakes. After scaring me to death, and then recovering for a weekend, I insisted he take a paint respirator mask- and low and behold, he had no symptoms... but lost the job for wearing it. Turns out that many of the workers there were also ill and puking, but management insisted that the ventilation was up to OSHA standards- what a crock. People getting totally ill just and scared to wear safety gear because they would lose their job.

I know copper isn't glass, but ventilation and safety gear could have saved a lot of people a lot of grief.

Sorry you had this experience in your glassworking studio. Remember, ventilation and safety first.

But there is a lot of glass colors the have copper base... Granted exposure is probably a lot less working glass, but why take any chances...

Best thing for hubby was probably loosing that job... Think of the poor souls still there...

Dale

[Dasi]

I also have heard of people using a very large fan placed in the window. I started out that way with the fan mounted in wood over 3 years ago. I took the fan out of the frame and mounted it in wood. All was fine the first few months and then the wind changed direction.

When the wind was blowing toward the fan it caused major problems!!! IT caused the fan to hiss sometimes and I was sure it was not drawing out the fumes. I had used a giant osilating fan but the wind still caused problems so I purchased a real hood and vented out the ceiling.

[hawleyclan]

Originally Posted by Dale M.

But there is a lot of glass colors the have copper base... Granted exposure is probably a lot less working glass, but why take any chances...

Best thing for hubby was probably loosing that job... Think of the poor souls still there...

Dale

Yeah, we were pretty relieved to be honest, and hubby went on to get a great job in a machine shop which has turned into a career.

My only regret was that we didn't report the company to OSHA. They have closed since then though, so they can't keep making people sick anymore.

[cherylsart]

I work in a 12x12' metal shed that has a big door that stays open all the time I'm torching. I position a fan to blow the fumes away from me toward the door. I want to move the fan behind me, because I think it would do a better job of venting the fumes out the door. The table I work at is close to the door. I work on a Hot Head and I don't know if that makes a difference. But I take breaks every 1.5 hours or so, and I haven't had any problems as far as I know.

So how much worse do you think the glass fumes are than cigarette smoke or big city smog? I've long been curious about that. I don't have any problems with lampworking, but the few times I've driven through Phoenix or San Bernardino I got sore throats and ear aches.

ETA: Hey Dale, I asked a question about my kiln power cord and I was hoping you'd have some advice for me. It's in this part of the forum.

[Dale M.]

Originally Posted by cherylsart

I work in a 12x12' metal shed that has a big door that stays open all the time I'm torching. I position a fan to blow the fumes away from me toward the door. I want to move the fan behind me, because I think it would do a better job of venting the fumes out the door. The table I work at is close to the door. I work on a Hot Head and I don't know if that makes a difference. But I take breaks every 1.5 hours or so, and I haven't had any problems as far as I know.

So how much worse do you think the glass fumes are than cigarette smoke or big city smog? I've long been curious about that. I don't have any problems with lampworking, but the few times I've driven through Phoenix or San Bernardino I got sore throats and ear aches.

ETA: Hey Dale, I asked a question about my kiln power cord and I was hoping you'd have some advice for me. It's in this part of the forum.

With the description of your setup I would not classify it as ventilation, I would classify it as recirculation with possibly some fresh air exchange....

Think you need to consider a system with a direct route outside for exhaust/fumes and a dedicated fresh air intake....

Dale

[cherylsart]

I've been trying to figure out to do this in a 12x12 foot metal shed. If you have any suggestions I'd appreciate it. Thanks.

Cheryl

[Paul Ewing]

You will need to cut a hole in the wall of one side of the shed for the exhaust to go out. If you do it in the back or towards the back of one of the sides, you can use the door as your makeup air source. Just make sure that the exhaust is 10 feet from the door measured around the corner if it is on the side. You would then make a hood or enclosure to go over the torch to trap the fumes so the exhaust fan can easily pull them out.

[cherylsart]

My Dad isn't going to let me cut a hole in his shed, that's for certain. I sit about 4 feet from the door of the shed. The door is probably 6 feet wide and 8 feet tall. About the only other thing I could do is put the table so the torch is pointing directly out the door. There's plenty of holes at the ceiling of this shed because it's made of corrugated metal. I really can't see running out of make-up air since the thing is only 12x12 and has so many openings in it. It's almost like working outside. I take plenty of breaks and I haven't noticed any problems. No coughing, no headaches, no shortness of breath.

Cheryl

[Dale M.]

Of shed is as porous as you say , you might be ok.... Be sure that fan bringing air in is in doorway though and take breaks often.....

Dale

[tiggybubba]

Ok I am going to get yelled at here I'm sure but this is my set up....
I have a 24" box fan in my window directly in front of my torch. It is blowing to the outside. The rest of the window is blocked so that air does not come back in. My fresh air supply is coming in from the adjacent bedroom windo that is about 15" away. I have a pass through between the two rooms. When I have the fan running, you can feel the fresh air rushing into my room from the other room.
However, I too have a problem with wind. I choose not to torch when it is too windy as it will literally stop my fan. No ventilation happening then not to mention it is hard on the fan motor.

I am in a townhouse. I cannot vent out the roof like I would certainly do if I could.

I do want to upgrade my ventilation. Im just not sure of the best way to do so.

This is my idea. I want to get a range hood and build a box for it so it sort of contains my work area. I would then have to connect it to a piece of plywood that would be installed in my window (it has to be a temporary connection, I cant do anything permanent) In order for this to work, I will have to use either flexible ducting or have several bends. Any idea of how many cfm's I need?

Also by venting to outside, if someone was in the unit beside me, with their window open, is there any hazard to them.

I try to be responsible. I have a respirator that I wear when doing enamels and I will wear it if I do any fuming. But I am worried that it is not enough.

Im sorry for the very long post but I welcome any suggestions or ideas.

Leslie

[Norskiglass]

Originally Posted by color happy

I was in my shop Saturday night and it was hot outside (I live in Florida) so I had the window air conditioner on. I have 6 windows and a door in my workshop which is 16' x 20'. The windows were closed with the exception of a box window fan. I have a Barracuda with tanked Oxygen and propane. I started coughing and did not stop working right away. My husband came out to check on me after about an hour and was very upset that I was still working. He stated that the smell was very strong inside the room. He immediately opened all windows and doors to get the odors out.

Today I am still having a hard time taking a deep breath.

I usually only work with the doors and windows completely open and have had no problems. It was 87 degrees in the workshop before I turned on the air conditioner.

Is the only option a hooded vent?

I am not a stupid person but really blew it this time.

Sounds to me you had symptoms of acute asphyxiation. I strongly recommend you to look at getting a fume hood built and a ventilation fan installed before taking any more risks.

After years of lampworking I have made constant improvements to ventilation systems in my studio due to the fact I have have several negative reactions and symptoms due to over work (10hrs a day) lack of fresh make up air or lack of ventilation.

There is a great deal of info on here as well as Milon Towsend's book not to mention Contemporary Lampworking I & II both have sections on ventilation set ups for you to work from.

~Enjoy!

[Norskiglass]

Originally Posted by Dale M.

NOPE....... Safety is serious........ Either you want to be safe or not... This is not a flowers and wine and cheese thing on patio topic. This is your safety... IF you want flowers and sweet things go to the "family room".

So come join us, get dirty and help others, swing that hammer, build ventilations and get propane tanks outside ...

Do not be offended here, because we only tell it like it is...

Be safe!

Dale

Very well put Dale! ~Thank you for your continued support,technical info, and generosity as it has made a great deal of impact on others here and elsewhere!

~W~

[Mustang Dawn]

A good ventilation system is not an option, it is a MUST have. You would not believe the number of students I have taught that said there 1st lampworking class said nothing about ventilation. I tend to believe people think that they will be ok with out one or with a fan blowing. This really scares me being a retired chemist. There is a lot of nasty stuff that is being inhaled not to mention if you use frit & enamels.

This thread is wonderful because it is one more thread that someone might see and think to themselves that they really need a ventilation system.

One more thing that really bothers me is glass studios who teach 8 to 10 students with out a proper ventilation system. If your thinking about taking a class ask if the studio has a system in place. If they say they open a door or a window with a few fans... Hang up the phone. I have declined 2 classes with awesome artist because there was no ventilation system.

Dawn

[Norskiglass]

Originally Posted by Mustang Dawn

One more thing that really bothers me is glass studios who teach 8 to 10 students with out a proper ventilation system. If your thinking about taking a class ask if the studio has a system in place. If they say they open a door or a window with a few fans... Hang up the phone. I have declined 2 classes with awesome artist because there was no ventilation system.

Dawn

Very simply put......as for the studio I have built there are 10 stations with an accumulation 10,000cfm 4 port system each individually powered,along side that a dual intake for fresh make up air.The system meets all standards for processing glass with immense burners running full time. The exhaust pull makes it difficult for people to open the gallery door. ~I wouldn't have it any other way.

Air is what we breathe.