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Tips, Techniques, and Questions -- Technical questions or tips

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  #541  
Old 2008-12-22, 3:57am
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Deb- I suggest you go back and reread the very first page of this discussion. There you will find out this was not based on the coping police nor the fact it was all about what ifs.

This thread may have deviated to the copying police and what ifs and much much more but , that was not how it started.

What I dont understand Deb is why you are fighting this so hard . Your tut right from the beginning says "Disclaimer: Please feel free to make beads using my technique, sell them, or give them away, but please do not sell or share this electronic file or give a copy of the printed file to anyone."

I am truly baffled why you have a hard time with this. I am assuming you thought out your words and decided to tell everyone its o.k so nobody was wondering, and you did just that. Whaala great. For you to even mention it in your tut I am assuming you thought it would be a question for some. I just dont get why you are fighting so hard against it when did it to begin with.

Anyways this has become quite the thread hasnt it. I want to thank most of the tut writers for being so open to this discussion and for listening and even for making changes. Will I continue to buy tuts, you bet with the authors that are up front of what they expect. Will I shy away from some, you bet but thats a good thing too because then they dont have to worry about what I am going to do with the tut because they havent been up front or are a little confusing about what they are saying. I save money and they save the hassle to, so its all good.

Thanks for making this a very interesting discussion.
Jen
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  #542  
Old 2008-12-22, 7:23am
Torch&Marver Torch&Marver is offline
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Originally Posted by glasscove View Post
And Moltenmuse if honesty sickens you - tough! Did I say that loud enough!
Your message is loud and clear -- as is the fact that you still don't see the difference between technique and design.

FTR, I have no designs I'm concerned with protecting. I have no tutorials to write (at least not any time soon). Yet, I remain affronted by the manner in which you've approached the subject.

On the other hand, you've helped me see that all the efforts to explain the difference will continue to fall on some people's deaf ears. You've also done a huge service to anyone considering giving a class or writing a tutorial. There will be no doubt that, regardless of the intent of the tutorial, beads will be copied because people feel they've "paid for that right". I'm not the copy police, people can and will do whatever they please. That's apparent. Nancy, at least I'm happy to see you do come up with your own designs. I had no way of knowing that by your initial reply. However, I get the feeling there are others around who simply want to pay for the "right" to produce and sell other people's work. If tutorial authors are okay with that, then there's no discussion. If they aren't, then the attitude of "I'm going to do it anyway" is pretty "in your face" and disrespectful of the beadmaker's time and energy spent making a certain design.

My biggest mistake was sinking to your level in my prior response. For that I apologize (to others who may be reading that is).

Last edited by Torch&Marver; 2008-12-22 at 7:27am.
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  #543  
Old 2008-12-22, 8:25am
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[quote=MoltenMuse;2271634]Your message is loud and clear -- as is the fact that you still don't see the difference between technique and design.[quote]





Obviously not loud or clear enough. It's not about whether you think I know the difference between design and technique.

Once again: There are thousands and thousands of beadmakers out there - and to think that anyone alone has come up with a technique or design is the downfall of the beadmaking community. Just because someone got it on the internet, or did a tutorial, or made a video etc etc first does not mean they came up with the design OR the technique first. Somewhere in the backwoods - days, months, or years ago -someone else probably came up with the same idea, design, technique etc and thinks they have also discovered something 'new'. The bead world is bigger, much bigger, than the ISGB, the forums and the bead shows.
All I am saying is newcomers don't get so caught up in the politics that you become afraid to do whatever you want.
And the sad fact is in the beadmaking world - this debate will still be going on 10 years from now.
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Last edited by glasscove; 2008-12-22 at 8:42am.
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  #544  
Old 2008-12-22, 8:46am
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Sorry but if any of you think that you truly have the protection of a copy right - think again. I have merely said what many many others think and don't want to speak up - mostly because somebody reading it might be 'sickened by their attitude'. I'm sorry, Nancy, if you believe that artists do not have the protection of copyright, you are wrong. They do have that protection, just as any artist does who publishes a work of art.
This has been a long going and disappointing debate mainly by beadmakers that somehow think they own techniques or designs. I don't believe that any artist that has participated in this thread has said one word, nor implied, that they own a technique.Can you imagine if the same nonsense was applied to the art of oil painting for example. Imagine if you will in your 'bitchest beadmaker voice' saying : "I paint mountains , they are my mountains, you can't do mountains or I paint a design of mountains with spruce trees and a lake so you can't.-" Subject matter, not design. No one owns subject matter. And the list can go on and on. Just as oil painting has been around for many many years - the art of beadmaking is 100's of years.
I lost all my patience for the beadmaker's ego of copying when I was once accused of copying someone who I had NEVER heard of NOR ever seen any of their work. After I was accused I did some research into the supposed artist that I copied and found out I had in fact done my 'design' many years before they did theirs. And just because someone sits in their studio creating glass instead of 'marketing themselves silly' so they can claim an idea etc does not guarantee they did it first or before the artists that doesn't belong to bead groups or forums. There is a big difference between getting it on the 'internet' first and actually creating it first. Techincally the artist I was accused of copying must have copied me since I did my design many years before her - but I am not stupid or ignorant enough to think that. I'm sorry you were accused of copying. In my opinion you are carrying a lot of rage regarding the copying subject, and perhaps rightly so, but it seems to me the logical response would have been, "I have been making this design for many years. There are actual incidents of copying in our community, but they are very few and very evident.
My point is: No matter what you think you have 'invented' there is guaranteed to be someone who has done the same thing before without the publicity attached to it. And considering the glass bead world has been around for hundreds of years - if you study the history of glass you'll find out that unless you are over 200 years old - you may think you have 'reinvented' the wheel - but you sure as hell didn't invent it.I disagree with this attitude wholeheartedly. Our glass world today is so different that the glass world 200 years ago. What you are saying is that all our innovations in materials and tools and the great knowledge we have built over those 200 years are nothing. They have not changed anything, and in my opinion that is just not true. We are only at the tip of the iceberg and there are so many, many things still to discover that can be done with glass.
What this copying crap accusations does is stiffle creativeness in new glass makers that get so hung up on the fear of copying someone. My message is get out there and have fun doing glass - and don't get hung up on the nonsense politics of it all. If someone teaches you a class - they have willingly gave you the information to you to do what you want with it. You've paid for that right. Yes, you have paid for that information and you should do what you want with it. The information you paid for are the techniques involved in making a certain style bead.I certainly don't go out to copy someone nor do I live with the fear anymore that I might! I am creative enough to come up with my own designs but not arrogant enough to think I am the only one in thousands of flameworkers to have come up with exactly the same idea. That's my point. Did I say it loud enough??
And please don't get me on the nonsense of being able to copyright anything you do on a glass bead. And Moltenmuse if honesty sickens you - tough! Did I say that loud enough!
Nancy, you appear to be so full of anger about an event that took place that you are basing all your opinons on that one event. I cannot count on both hands the number of times over the years that I have been attacked because of opinions I have held. Every incident stands alone and is as a result of circumstances present at that moment. I don't allow that to creep in and influence my future actions. To do so would color everything I do and my opinions would therefore be unreasoned and irrelevant.

With regard to the copyright issue, copyright exists for all artists' creations, but the ability to actually prosecute for copyright infringement is only for those with enough money to pursue it. A large percentage of the accusations of copyright infringement I have seen online are probably coincidence or from a barely remembered view of another's bead, but not all, and, to me, artists do have the right to complain should their designs be infringed upon.
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  #545  
Old 2008-12-22, 9:04am
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Nancy, you appear to be so full of anger about an event that took place that you are basing all your opinons on that one event. I cannot count on both hands the number of times over the years that I have been attacked because of opinions I have held. Every incident stands alone and is as a result of circumstances present at that moment. I don't allow that to creep in and influence my future actions. To do so would color everything I do and my opinions would therefore be unreasoned and irrelevant.

With regard to the copyright issue, copyright exists for all artists' creations, but the ability to actually prosecute for copyright infringement is only for those with enough money to pursue it. A large percentage of the accusations of copyright infringement I have seen online are probably coincidence or from a barely remembered view of another's bead, but not all, and, to me, artists do have the right to complain should thei r designs be infringed upon.

Oh brother! This issue goes far beyond this one post here. I AM NOT FULL OF ANGER - I am merely sick and tired of people claiming they own a technique or a design etc etc, and casting guilt or fear on newcomers to this art - that God forbid they might do something that inadvertantly or purposely 'copies' someone else. I have yet to hear of ONE single case where a beadmaker has successfully won a copyright suit. Please keep me advised. In fact when I was 'accused' of copying I emailed the lawyer that the ISGB had a link to at that time to say "Hey I think this well known bead maker copied my design from over 7 years ago - please do something". I did it as a joke - but I made my point. If anyone thinks they have an absolute right via copyright they'd better be able to proove that someone, somewhere, sometime before them did not come up with the same idea/technique/design etc. Impossible. I am speaking for many many beadmakers when I post - not just my incident. I am not alone!

And please Pam, don't think for a minute I am full of anger over a single incident. This copying crap has been going on for years. As I mentioned in one of my previous posts - it has become the blunt of many many glass world jokes. I don't get angry over my incident - I find it laughable, I get angry over the audacity of some beadmakers stiffling the creativity of newcomers because they say 'you can't make this bead, or you can't do dots, or fish, or florals' etc etc etc. Or when someone does a fish or a floral on their own and they hear "Oh that looks like so and so's work". And trust me I have heard all of the above! I have heard some dillies from the 'egos' but probably one of the most bizzare I had heard, with my own ears, was a beadmaker teaching a class and then told the students they had to pay $1.00 to her everytime they made that bead. And now selling tutorials saying they can't make and sell the same bead - how crazy is that??

And as far as tools, techniques, and designs changing over the past 200 years - of course they have. But when you now have thousands and thousands of beadmakers worldwide with access to this new age, common sense alone is going to say - more than one person is going to come up with almost identical color schemes, designs and techniques. In the art of Beadmaking there are only so many things that can be done to a bead, and when another advancement has been made - guaranteed someone else, whether in the same city, or on a different Continent, has also came up with the very same idea.
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Last edited by glasscove; 2008-12-22 at 9:42am.
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  #546  
Old 2008-12-22, 9:31am
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I really think some people should read a subject before posting on it, instead of just trying to stir the pot.. but thats just IMHO...

I think this whole thread started out of honestly wanting some answers over a relative non issue... as has been discovered through this discussion. so it was a good talk..

Now its all about taking someones words and seeing how many freakin times you can rearrange them put your spin on them, read between the lines and make a whole new argument over.

I dont have room for this negativity in my ART, or Life.

Im going to go make beads, maybe a new tut..

Happy Holidays to you and yours!
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  #547  
Old 2008-12-22, 9:33am
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It's bRunt...not blunt. Blunt means not very sharp.
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  #548  
Old 2008-12-22, 9:40am
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Just tryin' to help.
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  #549  
Old 2008-12-22, 9:41am
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one more thing , cuz this blew me away...

Quoted from Nancys last post
"In the art of Beadmaking there are only so many things that can be done to a bead, and when another advancement has been made - guaranteed someone else, whether in the same city, or on a different Continent, has also came up with the very same idea."

Youre kidding right? there are only so many things that can be done to a bead?
To me, lampworking is no different a medium than painting, you have your canvas you have your pigments,
Where you go with that is totally in your own creative imagination, its absolutely endless.
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  #550  
Old 2008-12-22, 9:43am
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Nancy, we will have to agree to disagree on the copyright protection issue. However, there could be no copyright on dots or fish or florals. That is just illogical. Copyright does not cover those things. Copyright is just what it says, a right of copy for a specific design. And beadmakers are not the only ones in the glass community who discern a problem with copyright infringement. There have been several issues just in the past couple of years in the glassblowing world, even some that went to court.

I don't recall ISGB ever having a link on the website to an attorney, but I do recall discussing having an attorney draw up a cease and desist letter that could be forwarded to those who felt they had a copyright claim.

I'm not going to bother discussing the whole "tutorial" thing with you. As I said before, I don't know of any tutorial writer who has said a person cannot copy the bead. I have said that I do not believe that should be the reason to buy a tutorial. I think buying a tutorial is the same as taking a class, the opportunity to advance your knowledge about how to work with glass.
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  #551  
Old 2008-12-22, 9:47am
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It's bRunt...not blunt. Blunt means not very sharp.

Thats the point - not very sharp!
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  #552  
Old 2008-12-22, 9:52am
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Satava went to court over his jellyfish paperweights and LOST.

The judge ruled that both his designs...and the designs of the person he accused of copying him...were BOTH based on a natural subject matter and not alike enough to warrant copyright protection.

The paperweights look very very much alike although the execution quality is different. They use the same basic techniques, orientation of the design and subject matter..but still Richard lost.

I really don't see how there is any winning. Satava would NOT have taken this guy to court unless he truly thought he could win...but he didn't.

Reading that case for myself years ago when I found it, I decided right then that I would NEVER try to accuse anyone of copying. Funny thing is that it didn't stop someone from accusing ME. LOL

I've been there, Nancy. But I still believe there are new things to happen. If there weren't...what are we all doing this for? A quick buck on etsy? A pat on the back from our peers? A kick in the ass from real artists who mock us behind our backs?

No. I can't speak for anyone else, but I do this for the love of it. The rest is gravy. Gravy that I've become quite dependent on not to put too fine a point on it...but still, gravy.

I'd do it anyway and honestly not give much care to what you or anyone else thought of it.

~~Mary
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  #553  
Old 2008-12-22, 9:56am
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Originally Posted by Ever After View Post
one more thing , cuz this blew me away...

Quoted from Nancys last post
"In the art of Beadmaking there are only so many things that can be done to a bead, and when another advancement has been made - guaranteed someone else, whether in the same city, or on a different Continent, has also came up with the very same idea."

Youre kidding right? there are only so many things that can be done to a bead?
To me, lampworking is no different a medium than painting, you have your canvas you have your pigments,
Where you go with that is totally in your own creative imagination, its absolutely endless.
Your post 2 above this one says it all :I really think some people should read a subject before posting on it, instead of just trying to stir the pot.. but thats just IMHO...


Please read all my comments before picking out of context. Currently there are only so many things that can be done to a bead - in a day that may change - my point is when it does, no one should assume they are the first to come up with it.
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Last edited by glasscove; 2008-12-22 at 9:59am.
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  #554  
Old 2008-12-22, 11:11am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ever After View Post
one more thing , cuz this blew me away...



Youre kidding right? there are only so many things that can be done to a bead?
To me, lampworking is no different a medium than painting, you have your canvas you have your pigments,
Where you go with that is totally in your own creative imagination, its absolutely endless.
This is why you are one of my favs Laurie!!! (Oh...please do a new tut!!!!)
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  #555  
Old 2008-12-22, 1:12pm
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Im really done here..but I wanted to say thank you to Karen, Very kind words, made my day!
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  #556  
Old 2008-12-22, 5:28pm
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I think I may have derailed this thread a couple of times, and I guess that wasn't quite appropriate.
I think there are premises here with which some can agree:
1) Unless specifically prohibited, you can copy and sell the beads from the purchased tutorial.
2) IF you choose to copy and sell the specific bead from the tutorial, there may be those who will think less of you as an artist, and will label you as a copycat.
3) THERE IS A DISTINCT DIFFERENCE between technique and design. Unfortunately (or fortunately, whatever), many of the tutorials sell design, and not technique. (Unless pulling stringer and encasing are now design.) There are only so many ways to make a realistic flower.
4) EVERYONE will disagree about these points, and about this thread, and it will be OK, we'll all live and go on to make more beads.
Everyone has their own comfort level. If you copy and sell, be prepared for the consequences, no matter what the artist says.
MERRY CHRISTMAS to all!!
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  #557  
Old 2008-12-22, 5:33pm
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Thank you Moondanse!
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  #558  
Old 2008-12-22, 5:51pm
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However, I get the feeling there are others around who simply want to pay for the "right" to produce and sell other people's work.
Avena- I don't really believe that this is where anyone is coming from. I believe that folks really do want to learn and I don't think anyone is setting out to go around and gather up all of the "recipes" for all these great beads and then plan on going from there doing nothing but producing their replicas.

The thing is, they aren't producing "other people's work." They have paid to be taught by an artist to replicate specific beads using that artist's techniques. Once the student then sits down at the torch and starts turning that mandrel and using those learned techniques, the work is their own.

They haven't stolen anything from anyone. The author/artist willingly transferred the formula to the buyer/student either for free, as a gift, or for money, as a business transaction.

Lisa
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  #559  
Old 2008-12-22, 5:54pm
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Thank you Moondanse!
ditto!
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  #560  
Old 2008-12-23, 2:55pm
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Avena- I don't really believe that this is where anyone is coming from. I believe that folks really do want to learn and I don't think anyone is setting out to go around and gather up all of the "recipes" for all these great beads and then plan on going from there doing nothing but producing their replicas.

The thing is, they aren't producing "other people's work." They have paid to be taught by an artist to replicate specific beads using that artist's techniques. Once the student then sits down at the torch and starts turning that mandrel and using those learned techniques, the work is their own.

They haven't stolen anything from anyone. The author/artist willingly transferred the formula to the buyer/student either for free, as a gift, or for money, as a business transaction.

Lisa
Hey Lisa,

We clearly disagree on what constitutes "paid" and whether or not learning a technique for a bead used in a tutorial includes a permit to "replicate" a specific bead. I still stand by the reality that even so called "specific beads" such as the rainbow bead must be "replicated" in order to make a tutorial useful. I can think of dozens of ways to use that same tutorial, put a spin on it and come up with a unique bead in my own style without feeling the need to make exactly what the tut made.

Again, I don't have a horse in this race nor a tutorial in the making. But, what you're objecting to, was stated because a few other people (not necessarily in this thread but in threads on this general issue over the past while) have made it very clear that they DO intend to buy tutorials, make those beads and sell them and they DO believe it's their inherent right to do so because they paid the artist $15 or $20.

I agree with Pam when she says this is the wrong reason to buy a tutorial. It's just that simple.

In any case, I have learned a great deal from the conversation. Especially while it remained a civil debate.

Happy Holidays one and all!
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  #561  
Old 2008-12-23, 4:18pm
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"There are only so many ways to make a realistic flower."

Hmmmm, flower as a bead running parallel to the mandrel. Flower as a bead running perpendicular to the mandrel. Flower formed and attached to a small bead. Flower formed and attached to a large bead. Two flowers formed and attached opposite each other on a bead. Three flowers formed and attached around the circumference of a bead. Flower formed and placed on a flat bead, cylindrical bead, square bead. Flower formed using the bead as a base, whether flat, round, square, cylindrical, barrel shape, freeform, etc., etc. Each leaf and petal created separately and added to a bead in different designs. Cased flowers. Cased flowers with flowers on the surface. Surface decoration as if the flower grows from the bottom of the bead. Raised design flowers clustered around a bead. Etc., etc., etc., etc. Flowers can be roses, pansies, daisies, petunias, dahlias, geraniums, daffodils, tiger-lily, tulip, and on and on and on and on. We could sit two thousand people at a torch and tell them to do a flower bead that would be unlike anyone elses and they'd come up with two thousand different beads.
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  #562  
Old 2008-12-23, 4:52pm
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Frogsongstudio Frogsongstudio is offline
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Originally Posted by jensy View Post
Deb- I suggest you go back and reread the very first page of this discussion. There you will find out this was not based on the coping police nor the fact it was all about what ifs.

This thread may have deviated to the copying police and what ifs and much much more but , that was not how it started.

What I dont understand Deb is why you are fighting this so hard . Your tut right from the beginning says "Disclaimer: Please feel free to make beads using my technique, sell them, or give them away, but please do not sell or share this electronic file or give a copy of the printed file to anyone."

I am truly baffled why you have a hard time with this. I am assuming you thought out your words and decided to tell everyone its o.k so nobody was wondering, and you did just that. Whaala great. For you to even mention it in your tut I am assuming you thought it would be a question for some. I just dont get why you are fighting so hard against it when did it to begin with.

Anyways this has become quite the thread hasnt it. I want to thank most of the tut writers for being so open to this discussion and for listening and even for making changes. Will I continue to buy tuts, you bet with the authors that are up front of what they expect. Will I shy away from some, you bet but thats a good thing too because then they dont have to worry about what I am going to do with the tut because they havent been up front or are a little confusing about what they are saying. I save money and they save the hassle to, so its all good.

Thanks for making this a very interesting discussion.
Jen
Jen I understand what the topic of this thread started out as. And I understand that it was a perfectly innocent and legitimate concern.
What I don't understand is why so much other stuff is being brought up that has never happened and the tutorial writers are getting so much flack for it.

Also, I don't know why having an opinion about it means I'm "fighting" so hard about anything. I thought this was a discussion. I'm discussing.

So far, I'm pretty sure I haven't called anyone names, nor have I told anyone they could kiss my ass if they don't agree with me.
You're right, I said anyone could make anything from my tutorial and I meant it.

But, I still don't think any tutorial writer, or anyone else for that matter, should be treated badly for things that haven't even happened, things that have never been said, things that are said and disagreed with.

If people don't agree with me that's fine. Don't call me deluded, don't call me stupid, don't tell me to kiss your ass.

I thought this was an adult conversation.
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  #563  
Old 2008-12-23, 4:55pm
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I've stayed out of this discussion but I keep hearing that no one owns a technique so let me raise a few questions. If someone figures out the Michael Barley Baleen technique all on their own, would it be ethical for them to then write up a tutorial on it and sell it? How about someone else's totally unique signature bead? Same thing, would it be ethical for them to write up and sell a tutorial on someone else's signature bead? I realize that this is kind of off topic but I'd like to know what people think about it.
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  #564  
Old 2008-12-23, 5:01pm
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Originally Posted by glasscove View Post
And I could probably show you several thousand of oil paintings that are direct replicas of work not their own. Oil painting was used as an example to show how ridiculous it is to claim any design or technique.
In beadmaking particular, there are only so many colors and so many ideas to cram onto a bead size 'canvas' and to think that someone alone has been the only one amongest thousands of beadmakers to come up with it - well ----- you have better chance of winning the lottery!

And you're right - obviously some people just don't get it!
And a replica painting is sold as a replica painting after so and so artist.

If I were to paint exact replicas of Kincade paintings and sold them as my own, I guarantee I'd be sued faster than I could count my money.
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  #565  
Old 2008-12-23, 5:03pm
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I've stayed out of this discussion but I keep hearing that no one owns a technique so let me raise a few questions. If someone figures out the Michael Barley Baleen technique all on their own, would it be ethical for them to then write up a tutorial on it and sell it? How about someone else's totally unique signature bead? Same thing, would it be ethical for them to write up and sell a tutorial on someone else's signature bead? I realize that this is kind of off topic but I'd like to know what people think about it.
Ethical. I don't know. Respectful, no I don't think so.
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  #566  
Old 2008-12-23, 5:25pm
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And a replica painting is sold as a replica painting after so and so artist.

If I were to paint exact replicas of Kincade paintings and sold them as my own, I guarantee I'd be sued faster than I could count my money.
That statement is hard to define though. What is a replica, what is derivative work? There are other cottage painters that paint with "light", but of course they aren't exact copies. When I see them, I know immediately what market they are geared to though.


There also is a difference between ethical and legal, I do think that has to be kept in mind.

When I purchase a tutorial that author has given me permission to make the exact bead(s) that is taught in the tutorial. There are some who interpret the law differently on what you may do with the bead that was made. Many feel that because of First Sale Doctrine, they can be sold, even if the author expressly states not to. That would be they could be sold legally, although it may be ethically wrong to go against the authors' wishes.
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  #567  
Old 2008-12-23, 5:30pm
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That statement is hard to define though. What is a replica, what is derivative work? There are other cottage painters that paint with "light", but of course they aren't exact copies. When I see them, I know immediately what market they are geared to though.
How is it hard to define? A replica is an exact copy. A derivative work is not.
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  #568  
Old 2008-12-23, 5:35pm
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How is it hard to define? A replica is an exact copy. A derivative work is not.
I think it is hard to define because, unless you're using a"painting copier" it won't be an exact copy. This is what experts depend on when finding fakes.
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  #569  
Old 2008-12-23, 5:39pm
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Wow I am glad I don't as a rule make flower beads!
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Old 2008-12-23, 5:40pm
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Wow I am glad I don't as a rule make flower beads!
Why?
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