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Safety -- Make sure you are safe!

View Poll Results: Do you have propane tank(s) in your house?
Yes, but only a maximum of 2 one-pound tanks 75 10.58%
Yes, I keep my BBQ tank right next to me in the studio. 208 29.34%
No, it always stays outside. I run the lines through a door/window. 245 34.56%
No, it always stays outside. I have a plumbed line through the wall. 181 25.53%
Voters: 709. You may not vote on this poll

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  #541  
Old 2015-02-02, 4:24pm
LuannJ LuannJ is offline
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Found the answer.
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  #542  
Old 2015-02-02, 5:30pm
LisaNadine LisaNadine is offline
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Smile Thank you!

Phill,
Thank you very much for your advice! I have been asking around about venilation, and will be sure to get a good quality fan. I have a plumber friend, so I might go the copper pipe route to be safe. I am also looking into getting a refurbished oxygen concentrator, so hopefully that's one less hazard.

Would you happen to know offhand the minimum fan speed needed?

Thanks again!
Lisa
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  #543  
Old 2015-02-02, 5:31pm
LisaNadine LisaNadine is offline
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Phill,
Thank you very much for your advice! I have been asking around about venilation, and will be sure to get a good quality fan. I have a plumber friend, so I might go the copper pipe route to be safe. I am also looking into getting a refurbished oxygen concentrator, so hopefully that's one less hazard.

Would you happen to know offhand the minimum fan speed needed?

Thanks again!
Lisa
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  #544  
Old 2015-02-05, 12:05am
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Speedslug Speedslug is online now
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Lisa I knew some of the numbers in my head some 8 years ago when I was setting up my studio but, alas, the memory is the second thing to go as one ages.

You want to use the search term "cubic feet per minute" or just CFM to get you to the threads that talk about
1) the fumes created by the torch burning the fuel,
2) the gases given off from the glass as you heat it up to a molten state,
3) the dangerous gases that " fuming" with gold or silver will produce
4) the other dangerous gases from some of the trace metals used to give the glass its colors and
5) the problem of ventilation systems potentially causing the carbon monoxide and flue gases from you heating system or water heater coming back into your house instead of going up the chimney because your ventilation system is too strong.

I had a friend that installed this neato bitchen vent hood over their kitchen stove. It was a glorious stove hood and he got a great scratch and dent deal on it. Unfortunately it was strong enough to pull gases from his toilet drain lines and sink drain lines into the house. It took him a week to figure out why he had sewer gas in his kitchen and through out the house. He was pretty much pulling sewer gas out of the city lines in the street because his old house did not have the proper 'p' traps in the basement drains.

There is a balance involved with getting air out of the house. What ever you take out with studio torch ventilation needs to be replaced. The air you dump out side needs to be at least ten feet from where you get the "make up air".

Bringing fresh make up air right to your torch bench will keep you from robbing 'conditioned' air from you living spaces.

There are discussions about the size of the of air flow duct work and that changing from a 4 inch duct to an 8 inch duct increase the amount of air movement at a geometric scale.

I remember that six inch duct work was the smallest that some felt one was safe to use and that 8 inch duct work would work in most cases but if you are going to use bottled oxygen then you better go to10 or 12 inch duct work and increase the capacity of the fan system as well because huge flames create massive amounts of fumes.

There is a discussion abut the speed of air flow and a ratio of against the volume of air flow. I think the point there was an air compressor that you can use to fill your car tires can move air so fast that it can embed particles in to your skin but it the total volume of air is pretty small while a 24 inch box fan in the window can move a larger volume of air but it does not have enough force to fight a 5 mile an hour breeze coming back in the window.

I forget what size torch you will be running but that will have to be the major factor in figuring out how many "CFMs" the ventilation fan must have to be safe.

I do know that what ever size hole you have for the ventilation to leave the house you will need to have that size hole or larger for the make up air to get in.

Also save yourself the hassle at the start and get smooth wall ducting both for exhaust and for makeup air. The expandable stuff with the crinkly surface can get you by in a pinch but the crinkles in the surface slow the air flow so much that you could use 3 garden hoses and have about as much air flow. Don't bother with anything marketed for use with a dryer.
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Last edited by Speedslug; 2015-02-05 at 12:10am.
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  #545  
Old 2015-02-05, 12:41am
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There are some details about the way the air moves around your body that complicate how your ventilation system is set up.

Say that you work with your arms bent a little and the torch is pretty much at your hands.
the flame and all the combustion gases are going to be creating a ball of fumes 2 feet in diameter around the flame.
That ball of fumes is only two feet from your face.

You want the vent system to pull that ball of gases up and away from your hands so that good air is coming over your shoulder to give you something to breath.

If you could use duct work to bring make up air right up under your bench and feed make up air to the under side of your torch then you would have an 'almost perfect' system.
The torch gases would go up and out the vent fan and new 'make up air would come up through the bench surface and replace the air going out the vent fan.

I call it an "almost" perfect system because doing it that way would require at least an 8 inch hole right under your torch. This is not good for most of us because that is where I set tools down and also I would be constantly dropping things in to that hole which is going to get very annoying very quickly. Covering it with a screen could work but for very line of screen width I would have to increase the size of that hole so and 8 inch hole would the get to be some 14 inches or bigger.


AT the moment I have my make up air come in at the back of my bench and I have a piece of stone the size of a 2x4 across my bench right at the base of my torch. this causes the makeup air to ride up and feed the underside of the torch flame and then it goes out the ventilation fan. I can limit the amount of makeup air enough so that I get a small amount of air to come over my shoulder and give me breathing air from my home heating system. It does not eliminate "conditioned air" from going out the ventilations system but it reduces it to a very small amount.
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  #546  
Old 2015-02-05, 12:56am
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Searching for the term "barley box" should get you to other discussions about how to tame the ventilation beast.

Oh and if you pipe your propane into the house to your bench you will want shut off valves 1) at the tank (it comes with one) 2) just before it enters the house wall 3) just inside the wall it came through and 4) at a convenient place near your work bench. Installing valves like this will make life a lot easier when you have to change tanks or deal with new torches later on.

Lots of folks up here in Minnesota have the huge propane tanks hard piped into their homes for dryers and heating. If you have it hard piped be sure that there are extra bends near the fastening anchors so that when the temperature goes up and down there is a curve that can give a little flex to the pipe so the connections don't get pushed or pulled on.
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  #547  
Old 2015-09-02, 7:18pm
CowGuy CowGuy is offline
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I'd like to install a propane line before the winter comes and was curious if it's possible to setup a port on the inside of my garage leading outside but have it look nice and fairly flush when I disconnect. I don't want to leave piping jutting out the wall and need it to look nice disassembled to be able to proceed. I don't mind piping for the system but I need to be able to unscrew everything and not have an eyesore.

I couldn't really find anything for setting up a wall port type of thing, I'm guessing I might just have to fashion something out of pipe fittings? Anyone have something setup they could show me pictures of or is what I'm looking for not exactly doable?
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  #548  
Old 2015-09-02, 11:41pm
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I don't remember anything in particular in my reading of the ideas here in LE.

I would think it is going to be very dependent on what your definition of acceptable appearance is going to be. Eyesore is a rather broad description of what you want to stay away from.

There are various ways of "hiding" the plumbing and fake rocks is the first thing that jumps to my mind followed closely by the proper placement of shrubbery.

I would have to see for myself the building you have to suggest anything more specific.


You could have the piping come through the wall and then downward with a pipe that runs to just a few inches under the dirt and ends there.
This last section could be removed and replaced with working piping when you want to hook up the connection to go to the torch where ever you have it and then when you want to disconnect it you would put this fake piping back into the dirt and no one would ever know that it stops just under the dirt.

You could even hide it inside one of those large ( 3 inch ) electrical conduit elbows that have the cover plate on the corner, again with the conduit running down under the dirt. You would just loosen the cover plate when you wanted to connect and put it back in place when you disconnected.
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Last edited by Speedslug; 2015-09-02 at 11:45pm.
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  #549  
Old 2015-12-17, 7:56pm
rlborgia rlborgia is offline
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Exclamation Propane worries in Ottawa Canada ...

We were setting up a basement studio with the propane tank outside with a 2" hole in wall running a 25' hose through a sleeve and down the wall to the torch. But the idea of having a tank outside with propane flowing into the house is freaking me out. Is it just better to do all this in a shed outside ? It gets down to -30 here in Ottawa Canada so i would need to build an insulated heated shed. any other Canadians here ? Any advice ?
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  #550  
Old 2015-12-18, 12:35am
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You can do propane in the basement IF you take all of the precautions you will find in this and the other safety threads.

If you want to build an insulated shed to torch in it is just as doable as the basement but you will still need to learn all of the details involved with propane and the other aspects of lampworking.

A picture says a lot so look in the My Studio threads as well.

When using the search function here, use "quotes" around multiple word searches or you will wind up with results that for each single word which can be frustrating.



ETA: I want to be a little more clear on this.
You can PIPE propane into your basement with the proper precautions and preparations but under no circumstances should you bring the tank of propane into your house.

The valve systems that were used 30 years ago had problems with leaking and have been replaced with 'safer' systems but it is still a bad idea to bring the tank into your home. There is no advantage to having the tank in the house. Just pipe it in.

If something happens requiring an insurance claim, say a car runs into your house, they can deny your claim altogether even if the problem had nothing to do with the tank in the house.



Propane turns to a gas at minus 43f which equals minus 42c and if it is that cold outside often enough to make a difference where you live then you will be learning about tank heaters and such just to keep your place from freezing anyway.
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Last edited by Speedslug; 2015-12-18 at 5:13pm.
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  #551  
Old 2015-12-18, 5:15am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlborgia View Post
We were setting up a basement studio with the propane tank outside with a 2" hole in wall running a 25' hose through a sleeve and down the wall to the torch. But the idea of having a tank outside with propane flowing into the house is freaking me out. Is it just better to do all this in a shed outside ? It gets down to -30 here in Ottawa Canada so i would need to build an insulated heated shed. any other Canadians here ? Any advice ?
I live in Maine and my tank is outside. The cold doesn't affect anything. The temps are around somewhere on how far below zero it has to go to bother anything but, whatever you choose to do, do NOT put a propane tank in your basement. Seriously, do NOT put a propane tank in the basement.

All the best,

Sue
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  #552  
Old 2016-04-28, 8:39pm
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Folks run their entire house on propane piped in from outside all over the world.

But you do have to get some one who knows how to do it properly or else you could wind up on the front page explaining to reporters that your insurance is not going to cover this one because it was not done correctly.
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  #553  
Old 2016-05-23, 6:39pm
anniekuhndesigns anniekuhndesigns is offline
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I am embarrassed to say that I have kept my torch inside for all these years. I talked with someone from ISBG and am a new convert. The propane will be outside very soon. Thanks for your posts.
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  #554  
Old 2016-06-23, 6:30am
flowman flowman is offline
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I don't read LE often enough, but I'm glad this thread keeps popping up to the top, because I've known that I should move my propane outside (it's not in the house, I have a separate studio), I was just intimidated/confused about what needed to be done. I'm happy to say that I did the plumbing yesterday (still need to pressure test), but the propane is now outside, with all the required cutoff valves. It really isn't that hard to do.

I did it myself because when I hired a plumber a few years ago to install NG lines in our house (replacing electric range and water heater with NG versions), he hooked it up to the supply BEFORE capping it off, literally pumping natural gas into our house! And he checked for leaks with a lighter--said "some people say it's dangerous, but I ain't had no problems!" I was terrified and furious in equal measures--the house still reeked of fumes hours later. Now I do my own work whenever feasible, after researching codes and the correct way to do it.

Whether you do it yourself or hire it done, be safe, move your propane outside.
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  #555  
Old 2016-06-23, 9:41am
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I think I might have called the state license boards on that particular plumber.


That sounds like someone that is going to be very sorry some day while explaining that his business insurance is not going to cover some clients losses and wishing them luck trying to sue him because he will just declare business bankruptcy and start up a new business under another name.
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