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Boro Room -- For Boro-related tips, techniques, and questions.

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  #1  
Old 2013-02-14, 8:43pm
bluffroadglass bluffroadglass is offline
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Default First try with boro = watching paint dry!

I gotta ask, those of you who've switched from soft glass to boro, how did you make yourself hang in there with boro long enough to learn how to do anything with it?

I love the boro color palette and was so excited about the prospect of learning to work boro, but I finally had the time to play around with some of the glass I bought last night and holy cow, is this stuff SLOW! I'm on a Lynx and a Regalia (10 LPM) concentrator. I had the torch and concentrator maxed out and it still took me 2 hours to make a simple 1" implosion marble. And after all that, the marble never ended up making it to the kiln, because it fell off the punty during the final shaping and picked up a bunch of grit and surface scars from the studio floor. By that point I was just so tired and disgusted I threw it in the water bucket.

Just getting a decent gather seemed like it took forever. Pulling stringer was an exercise in frustration, I couldn't seem to get enough heat into a gather to pull more than about a foot at a time. I tried pulling some points on heavy wall 1" tubing and did better than I expected as far as getting them straight, but the glass stiffened up so quickly that my points ended up being way too short and basically unusable.

Oh yeah, and I hate my new ACE shade 3 glasses, too. I can barely see through them well enough to do any detail work, and from what I've read, that's the minimum level of shade needed for working boro color.

Did any of you find it this frustrating when you first switched to boro and still manage to overcome the obstacles and learn to love the glass? I had such high hopes of expanding my capabilities, but boy, last night's torch session was just 4 hours of constant irritation.

It seems obvious that I need more firepower, but I'm wondering how much difference that's really going to make. I'm not a patient person, and I swear, while waiting for that marble to implode last night I actually thought I was going to doze off.

Does it get better? Any advice would be super appreciated!
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  #2  
Old 2013-02-14, 9:36pm
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LOL kim your post made me chuckle, sorry! I wonder the same thing. I'm on a cricket and it is definitely like watching paint dry some days! I try to play with my boro about once a week. I have small rods of clear to help........and I find I'm pulling stringer more to work with. From what I've been reading you only do small amounts at a time, like an inch then pull. I have 3 hours at the torch and I can get a SMALL (just under 3/4 inch) marble made and a simple heart or a smallish petal type focal. Thats it. And to top it off my dh doesnt come out to the studio very often but when he does, lately its on a boro nite and he's like .........what the heck ya been doing, wheres all the stuff!! I could just kick him!!! I do love it tho and heck if you can get a book to read in between heating things up I think you'll do ok! Seriously.......I listen to the radio, Delilah is always on at the time I torch and I just sit and listen...... LOL If you find a better way I'd love to hear it!!
Sue
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  #3  
Old 2013-02-14, 9:53pm
GlassAlias GlassAlias is offline
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I had no problems doing 1.5" marbles on my lynx with tanked O2 and I am a glass noob. I could probably spin out a 1" implosion in a half hour depending on how I finish off the marble. Another Regalia or similar concentrator would probably help a good deal as well.
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  #4  
Old 2013-02-14, 10:10pm
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Every time I try it I am tempted to go back to soft glass!
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  #5  
Old 2013-02-14, 10:50pm
LarryC LarryC is offline
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Originally Posted by bluffroadglass View Post
I gotta ask, those of you who've switched from soft glass to boro, how did you make yourself hang in there with boro long enough to learn how to do anything with it?

I love the boro color palette and was so excited about the prospect of learning to work boro, but I finally had the time to play around with some of the glass I bought last night and holy cow, is this stuff SLOW! I'm on a Lynx and a Regalia (10 LPM) concentrator. I had the torch and concentrator maxed out and it still took me 2 hours to make a simple 1" implosion marble. And after all that, the marble never ended up making it to the kiln, because it fell off the punty during the final shaping and picked up a bunch of grit and surface scars from the studio floor. By that point I was just so tired and disgusted I threw it in the water bucket.

Just getting a decent gather seemed like it took forever. Pulling stringer was an exercise in frustration, I couldn't seem to get enough heat into a gather to pull more than about a foot at a time. I tried pulling some points on heavy wall 1" tubing and did better than I expected as far as getting them straight, but the glass stiffened up so quickly that my points ended up being way too short and basically unusable.

Oh yeah, and I hate my new ACE shade 3 glasses, too. I can barely see through them well enough to do any detail work, and from what I've read, that's the minimum level of shade needed for working boro color.

Did any of you find it this frustrating when you first switched to boro and still manage to overcome the obstacles and learn to love the glass? I had such high hopes of expanding my capabilities, but boy, last night's torch session was just 4ut I'm wondering how much difference that's really going to make. I'm not a patient person, and I swear, while waiting for that marble to implode last night I actually thought I was going to doze off.

Does it get better? Any advice would be super appreciated!
switching from a single concentrator to tanked oxygen would make a huge difference. The Lynx is a great torch when you feed it right. Your setup sounds oxygen deficient. Also, you stated that you had high hopes of expanding your capabilities. Why? It takes time and effort to do that, not just switching glasses.

Last edited by LarryC; 2013-02-14 at 10:52pm.
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  #6  
Old 2013-02-14, 11:12pm
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i start with a National 3A Blowpipe torch i use for about 3 years then i move on to they mega red max
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  #7  
Old 2013-02-15, 4:23am
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I'm also chuckling here....sorry Kim

Keep at it! It will get better! A little suggestion...instead of diving right in and working on implosion marbles (which, in all honesty, is probably how I would have started if those were what I really really wanted to do ), how about working on just small simple things until you get used to the dark glasses, how the glass heats up in your torch, etc. Maybe some simple beads, spacers, basic encased, etc. Kind of Get Your Feet Wet things. Work at pulling stringers at the same time. Think about how you started with soft glass. Did you start right off making intricate beads, or did you start with spacers and work up to more complicated things?
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  #8  
Old 2013-02-15, 4:36am
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Sounds like you need more o2. I run my cricket on 2 5lpm concentrators and it is not that slow. I haven't tried a marble but for the same size pendant I can make one in about an hour.

Also how far from the candles are you working? For clear and silver colors I am right in front of them. I mean like maybe an eighth of an inch. For crayon colors I work farther out, mostly right in front of them.
Chuck
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  #9  
Old 2013-02-15, 7:19am
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I also have some National 3A torches and 5 different size tips for Air and 5 for oxy. I have no problem. I also have a cannon burner that was made in the 1930's which was handed down in the family that will convert back and forth from air or oxy as I need it. Bethleham burners, Corning burners, Carlisle burners, etc. All of which make the oxy gauges move steadily down. I think your tourch is starving for oxigen. I can make a pretty large marble on my hand torch with a large tip with no problem at all. Often I will set two 3As up opposing each other and use them like crossfires. Gas, Air, and a little Oxy in that mix just to enrich the fire. Then work in the middle of the two heating the glass from both sides at once. Remember that no matter what you do, borosillicates wil never get as fluid as soft glasses.

Last edited by hyperT; 2013-02-15 at 7:27am.
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  #10  
Old 2013-02-15, 9:05am
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Default Keep it hot

Keep it close and in the flame as much as possible! No waving in the back or slowly reintroducing it, boro can take a lot of abuse. In fact, if it were me, I would be experimenting with exactly how much abuse it can take. Such as setting the tip of the rod directly in the front of the candles, melting it, setting it aside with no protection to cool, reintroduce it to the flame...in short, trying to find out what it takes to make it pop. Soft glasses will pop at you without you even trying, but boro doesn't expand and shrink as much, so mostly no flying shards of hot glass (yay!). Also, just like the soft glasses, transparents (clear) are slower to melt, and clear gets literally glowing white hot to move nicely. I would watch a couple of boro videos and look at the heat colors that the glass is getting to.

Mostly, just keep it in the flame;p Good luck!
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  #11  
Old 2013-02-15, 9:11am
bluffroadglass bluffroadglass is offline
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Thanks for the responses, everyone. It looks like I'm going to need to go back to tanked oxy or add another concentrator to get more force into my flame. It also looks like my expectations in terms of how boro would move were way out of kilter. I pretty much thought that if you got it hot enough it would at some point become as fluid as soft glass...I just thought it would take longer. Obviously I wasn't using enough heat to really test that incorrect assumption anyway, but from what you guys are telling me, no matter how much heat I blast it with or how hot I get it, boro will never move the way soft glass does.

I guess time will tell whether boro's for me or not. As soon as I can get the money together I'll probably get another concentrator and possibly a larger torch -- maybe one of the GTT's that has the Lynx as a center fire, so I could run the center off one concentrator and the outer fire off another one. I've also wanted to check into liquid 02, so that's a possibility as well. I can't see going back to tanked. Although I love it, it's just too much of a hassle dealing with the welding co. to switch tanks out.

Larry: When I said I had high hopes of expanding my capabilities, I didn't mean that I expected to be able to do that in one torch session. What I meant was that I had really looked forward to the process of learning boro, but that first attempt was so frustrating due to the stiffness of the glass that I was wondering if boro was really for me. That's why I posted here -- to find out how much of my bad experience the other night was due to factors that could be improved (i.e., by upgrading my torch/oxy setup or getting a little further into the learning curve) and how much was just due to the innate stiffness of the glass compared to soft, which was never going to change. For me, soft glass is very zen. It just flows, and depending on how I heat it or remove heat I can make it flow faster or I can make it stop flowing. But getting the boro even the least bit pliable felt like one long fight. (And the boro definitely won, LOL!)

Kim: You're absolutely right, I should have started smaller. I've got plenty of time to do that while I save up the dough to upgrade my setup, so that'll be my plan of attack the very next time I'm at the torch.

Chuck: I was working right in front of the candles. I actually work closer to the candles than most people do with soft glass, so that came natural to me.

Pickledkitty: Your post reminded me of the 1 thing I did really love about boro: its lack of shockiness. Man, that was great!

Thanks again for the input, you guys. I'll keep ya posted on how things progress.
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  #12  
Old 2013-02-15, 9:27am
LarryC LarryC is offline
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Originally Posted by bluffroadglass View Post

I guess time will tell whether boro's for me or not. As soon as I can get the money together I'll probably get another concentrator and possibly a larger torch -- maybe one of the GTT's that has the Lynx as a center fire, so I could run the center off one concentrator and the outer fire off another one. I've also wanted to check into liquid 02, so that's a possibility as well. I can't see going back to tanked. Although I love it, it's just too much of a hassle dealing with the welding co. to switch tanks out.
As I said, The Lynx can put out an insane amount of heat if you feed it right. I started on a Lynx and tanked oxygen and was making 2+ inch boro marbles before I upgraded to the Mirage. Spend your money on Oxygen and learn how to really use that Lynx. There is a learning curve on the triple mix system but it is worth it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluffroadglass View Post
Larry: When I said I had high hopes of expanding my capabilities, I didn't mean that I expected to be able to do that in one torch session. What I meant was that I had really looked forward to the process of learning boro, but that first attempt was so frustrating due to the stiffness of the glass that I was wondering if boro was really for me. That's why I posted here -- to find out how much of my bad experience the other night was due to factors that could be improved (i.e., by upgrading my torch/oxy setup or getting a little further into the learning curve) and how much was just due to the innate stiffness of the glass compared to soft, which was never going to change. For me, soft glass is very zen. It just flows, and depending on how I heat it or remove heat I can make it flow faster or I can make it stop flowing. But getting the boro even the least bit pliable felt like one long fight. (And the boro definitely won, LOL!)
Please dont think I was trying to be snarky. In the light of the morning I reread my response and I realize it might seem that way but it wasnt intended. Your experience is exactly why I cringe every time I hear someone suggest a minimal setup to a beginner. It is like you are being handicapped by the equipment right away and it almost assures a frustrating first experience. In my opinion the right setup for the boro beginner should be a capable torch like the Lynx running tanked oxygen and for soft I would never suggest starting on a hot head. The flames will now start but I am just a guy working in his garage trying to make nice things. I dont sell torches or concentrators or frit mixes so I have no conflict or agenda. Take it as you will. I have worked soft furnace glass for years and I prefer working Boro. It is more forgiving and much more relaxing but it needs a sufficient amount of heat.
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  #13  
Old 2013-02-15, 9:28am
deb tarry deb tarry is offline
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Keep going I worked on a lynx with two 5 lpm when I first started boro and yes its was slow. Pulling stringers was the worse I couldn't understand why I couldn't get them to pull out nice and smooth like I could with soft glass. It gets better if you stick with it. No shocking rods, clear.... really clear.... glass is to die for.
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Old 2013-02-15, 12:18pm
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I had a Lynx with 2 concentrators but just didn't get what I needed and I just couldn't do tanked. So I sold the Lynx and bought a Scorpion and have my Regalia for the center fire and the M15 for the outer. Love it! As I understand, the Scorpion was made for concentrators and I sure could see a difference.
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Old 2013-02-15, 4:57pm
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Kim,
It was a suggestion. I guess the teacher in me came out and I did a little task analysis If you have any questions, feel free to PM me. I'm not able to do a lot of lampwork lately due to some vision issues, but I'll help as much as I can....and can remember
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  #16  
Old 2013-02-15, 5:27pm
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Boro isn't for everyone. I'll probably sell most of mine. I'll keep the DAP and clear and maybe a few rods of this and that, but after trying several times (and burning through a bunch of mandrels) I've concluded that I just don't love it. I love making beads. I'm not very interested in making marbles or hearts. I'd still like to master a simple implosion pendant, so I'm not giving up entirely. I just don't need 30 or 40 lbs. of it.
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Old 2013-02-15, 5:44pm
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I just don't need 30 or 40 lbs. of it.
*blink*

*blink again*

That's a nice stash. I wish I had something of value to trade you for it!

-BEP
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Old 2013-02-15, 5:59pm
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Seriously.......I listen to the radio, Delilah is always on at the time I torch and I just sit and listen
Sue
Aw Sue, next time I torch I'll know that you & I are working away together, that's my torch time, too!
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Old 2013-02-15, 7:47pm
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Yes I have had years of frustration some wins some losses. I use the didydium glasses with flip up green shields, when I need to see fine detail, like apply dots, I flip them up, then I flip down to melt in when glass is glowing.

I struggled for several years on mini cc and concentrator, I just upgraded to baracuda and tanked O2, I can now melt a 20mm rod fairly quickly.

Just keep flaming, you'll improve.
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Old 2013-02-15, 9:20pm
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Oh, I use an Ace 3 boro shield rather than glasses. I just wear my regular progressives with it. But I rarely rage the flame on my Scorpion.
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Old 2013-02-15, 10:05pm
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Kim, I agree with the crowd. You may even want to drop your Oxycon by a medical supply house and have them test your O2 output. In the mean time Schott clear melts faster and easier. I already have your address. Email me the diameter you want and I will put together some clear, Amazon night and instructions on how to use it to test your flame and send it to you for free. You just became a customer, I cannot afford to have you drop Boro!! Robert
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Old 2013-02-16, 7:44am
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Kim, I do mostly boro. But I do beads, not implosions. However I find my scorpion with an M15 does an awesome job!
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Old 2013-02-16, 4:59pm
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Kim-I feel your pain. I started at the furnace and went to lampworking boro then to soft glass. I rarely get my boro out any more and when I do it just makes me appreciate my soft glass more-ahhh-so soft and sculptable.
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Old 2013-02-16, 7:03pm
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Kim,

Pulling stringers with boro is a whole different animal. I've found that the only way to get consistent long stringers is to keep the gather in the flame and pull stringers right out of the gather while rotating the gather in the flame. Is that clear as mud??

As for boro moving like soft glass if you just get it hot enough.....well, the only person I've seen do that is Lewis Wilson. I remember watching him in Portland at the Gathering many years back. He was working with a HUGE flame and had hot boro globules flying across the room. It was like a hot glass thrower rather than a flame thrower. That's the only time I've seen boro actually fluid....and it was SCARY hot!

Don't be afraid to crank up your torch higher than it's ever been. And keep experimenting with clear boro.....it's much cheaper than learning on color!

Peace,
Suzee
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Old 2013-02-17, 7:59am
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I feel your pain ~ Hang in there. I have a Phantom on tanked but use the lynx portion 99% of the time to do pendants, marbles and hearts. I think the biggest thing is where to be in the flame. I work closer to the torch head than soft glass and when making implosions, the angle (elbow up) to get the glass to flow.

I do stringer like Suzee and twisties are a breeze..... Get the end hot, punty up and just keep twisting and heating just behind where the glass is moving..... you can make twisties several feet long

Remember to heat the glass and not the rod when making beads.... ask me how I know that one.... lol....

Boro is addicting and I find I do more boro now than soft glass but I do switch back and forth because I love the bright colors in soft glass.
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Old 2013-02-17, 8:35am
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Thanks for the tips, you guys! I will definitely put them to use. I'm going to spend some time working on beads and smaller stuff while I save enough to upgrade my oxy setup and possibly get a bigger torch. I'm reassured by the posts here and think that a lot of the problems I was having were due to the glass just not being hot enough due to not having enough oxygen to get a really forceful flame.

Robert, that's a very thoughtful offer but there's no need for you to bother sending me anything -- I have some Amazon Night and know about the flame test, so all I'm set for that.

Enjoy your Sunday, everyone!
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Old 2013-02-17, 10:03pm
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How weird! Last weekend I actually made a boro heart after not touching boro for a bajillion years. Yes, it was wayyyyy slower working than soft glass. I liked that aspect of it for off mandrel work, though. Oooh, and I successfully used a tungsten pick for the first time to make a hole, too.


Kim and I tried making some boro murrini, too. Oy. THAT was like watching paint dry.

I can't wait to see what you do with boro, Kim!
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  #28  
Old 2013-02-18, 5:57am
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Bunyip Bunyip is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluffroadglass View Post
...and possibly get a bigger torch.
The lynx is surprisingly capable with a proper oxygen supply. Boro beads it should do superbly (I haven't tried them on MY lynx - the centerfire of my 'cuda is smaller and does them fine, though). Marbles up to 1.5" should be no problem...or bigger with patience. Implosions, Pendants, etc (Solid or tubing), once again, no problem. Goblets, vessels, spoons & sherlocks even, if that's your thing.
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  #29  
Old 2013-02-18, 8:59am
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samandsha samandsha is offline
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Yup, more oxygen will help you. Feel free to contact me with questions. If I can help, I surely will ;-D
Keep your work very close to the flame. Taking it out, even to go to a torch top marver (on a smaller torch) will lose so much heat it take a long time to get it heated back up to move again.
There is great fun to be had in boro. Keep at it ;-D Samma
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  #30  
Old 2013-02-18, 9:26pm
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essiemessy essiemessy is offline
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I'm also a boro beginner, using a Mini CC and 6LPM of my 8 of concentrator oxy. Very small potatoes, but I can strike stuff well enough, if I keep it small and manageable.

I'm not interested in using tree trunks in terms of rods, so the 6mm rods are fine for me. I also love to play with tubing (not points or stuff like that yet) just to see what it does and what I can turn it into. Like encasing and blowing it, seeing what colours do (or not do ) in my weedy flame, and moving it all around to see what happens. With the narrow rods and the stringers/canes I can pull from them, I'm cool with that. I can sculpt, blow and pop bubbles, and simply play, all off-mandrel. That's what I love about this stuff.

I'm not interested in making big marbles, or beads, for that matter, with boro. I love my soft glass, and want to keep my mandrels nice for that. Best of both worlds

Really, even with my limited firepower, I reckon most people could find a use for boro, even if it's just to play. If you have limits, simply work within them But creatively, there are no limits. A whole new world is waiting
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