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Safety -- Make sure you are safe!

View Poll Results: Do you have propane tank(s) in your house?
Yes, but only a maximum of 2 one-pound tanks 76 10.60%
Yes, I keep my BBQ tank right next to me in the studio. 212 29.57%
No, it always stays outside. I run the lines through a door/window. 247 34.45%
No, it always stays outside. I have a plumbed line through the wall. 182 25.38%
Voters: 717. You may not vote on this poll

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  #151  
Old 2006-01-12, 5:25am
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MikeAurelius MikeAurelius is offline
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Karen - what you must understand is that the NFPA *IS* the underlying safety standard when it comes to fire safety AND fuel gas safety.

Passing a line through a window is considered a temporary installation, and as such is not regulated by NFPA.

Penetration of a wall in a specific method to provide a 'pass through' for a fuel gas line is considered a permanent installation and *IS* regulated by NFPA.

Wall penetration is very easy to do.

You will need metallic pipe, usually about 4" longer than the wall is thick. You will also need two fuel gas rated valves, one inside and one outside.

Drill a hole in the wall where you want the pipe to run. The hole should be at least 1/4" larger than the pipe outside diameter. Pass the pipe through the wall. Have someone hold the pipe in place and with either fuel gas rated pipe dope or teflon tape, coat the threads and mount the fuel gas valve on the other side. Brace or block the pipe at this point to keep it from moving.

Switch ends with your helper and attach the other fuel gas valve on the opposite end in the same manner with dope/tape.

Attach a rubber hose adapter to the inside fuel gas valve - usually a 1/4" barbed end on one side and pipe thread to match the fuel gas valve. Use pipe dope or teflon tape to seal the threads. Use a proper hose clamp - not the screw type, but a compression hose clamp and attach your "T" grade hose line (red). You can also get a pipe thread/B fitting from your local welding supply store and attach the "T" hose to that if you don't want to cut the fitting off.

On the outside, use the proper adapters to mount a flexible metal fuel gas line to the outside valve on one end and a fuel gas quick disconnect on the other end (matching QD on the regulator).

If you want a professional to do this, select a plumber who has experience with fuel gas plumbing. This type of installation *usually* does not require a permit, but check with your local building authorities to be sure.

Failure to do it the proper (NFPA) way, would probably result in the cancellation of your insurance and non-payment of any claim in the case of a fire.
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  #152  
Old 2006-01-12, 6:39am
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Here's a couple of pictures that might help.

The first is from the inside, the second from the outside.

Note that the outside picture shows a rubber hose running from the valve to the fuel tank - this was changed shortly after to the picture was taken to a flexible metallic pipe.
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  #153  
Old 2006-01-12, 9:22am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karen Hardy
Hi Dale!
So now, color me even more confused. It's ok to have the propane tank outside and chuck a hose through a window, but if I want to put in a dryer vent and pass it through there that's not kosher? I'm more concerned about safety than NFPA requirements (although I'd prefer that my insurance agent not run away screaming in panic when he sees my studio setup too).

I just don't see how I can properly set this up myself without calling in a professional (and then, that begs the question, what KIND of professional, plumber? electrician? And what exactly do I tell him/her that I want to have done? I have a handyman that does odd jobs, but he's a little gung ho and would gladly assemble a nuclear bomb in the bathroom for me if I had the plans and materials - so I can't count on him for safety issues).

Karen

Mike pretty much said it all...

Dale
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  #154  
Old 2006-02-19, 4:51pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeAurelius
I freely admit that I've been very outspoken in the past about CJ's attitude towards safety, and the post above shows that inspite of the tens of thousands of words about safety, it is still disregarded by those of us who put money ahead of safety.

It's a damn shame, and one day, someone is going to get seriously hurt or killed by following the practices shown in books like CJ's.
You might find this interesting then. My mother bought me my first HH last year. I torched with it a few times (went through 2-3 bottles). Then 1 day I lit the torch and it exploded! Really.........., right in my face! I was extremely fortunate that the blast was directed away from me and the torch, MAPP gas bottle and all, was ripped from the table bracket and flew across the garage. Other than years taken off my life and a burned tractor seat (still burning torch landed on my DH's John Deere seat burning it to smithereens) I was not injured. Called Hot Head Source, talked to CJ's "manager" who told me she was so glad I was OK, they'd replace my torch (as if I really wanted another!) and said that I must have one of their "older" models. She stated that they had some problems with the threading where the torch head met the stem and some torches leaked a little! That's great, they knew about this problem, redesigned the torch but never issued any public warning or recall!!! So I agree with your assessment Mike and even if nobody else has a problem with their HH, I won't deal with anyone that doesn't put their customer's safety first! Even if she is not an expert on these safety matters, then she should hire a consultant who is or put a disclaimer in the book revealing that her book will not address safety matters and direct people to a reputable source for more info.

Just my scary tale, thought I'd share! Thanks so much Mike and Dale for all the info you two have provided, hopefully keeps us all safe!

Dana
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  #155  
Old 2006-02-22, 1:23pm
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Can I change my earlier vote? My tank is OUTSIDE now!
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  #156  
Old 2006-02-22, 6:57pm
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I'm still confused: If you pipe the gas in, you still have to go outside to turn it on or off? Where my studio is situated, there is a window, but I would have to trek quite a ways around the corner, upstairs through the house, outside, and fish around under the deck to access that window area. I want to be safe, but I also don't want to make it such a PITA to torch that I never want to do it.
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  #157  
Old 2006-02-22, 7:54pm
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With approved metallic piping and proper shut off valve you do not have to turn off gas at tank when done, BUT it would be safer if you did. With approved metal piping your gas for torch is no different than any other gas supply in home for any appliance... BUT you still have to shut off inside valve at minimum when done torching to be safe.

Dale
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  #158  
Old 2006-02-25, 10:34am
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I suggest you go talk to you home insurance representative and see what THEIR take is on it. As others have said in the off chance you DO have an explosion and kill someone or destroy your house your gonna be SOL because insurance WILL NOT PAY.

Now ask yourself is being stubborn about a $50-100 install worth the potential cost of loosing a loved one? Loosing your home? Loosing your Insurance coverage if you DO have an explosion from a leaking tank?

Karin
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antoņio
By the lack of response to my question, I think it is clear that the "it's dangerous" perspective has been totally disproven. Antonio
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  #159  
Old 2006-02-25, 11:26am
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You might not be REQUIRED to, but it sure is a whole lot SAFER if you do!
If you have a fire indoors, you may be placing lives in jeopardy (yours or fire personel) if the gas is ON, especiallly if you don't have other gas appliances. Firefighters look for stoves, Gas water heaters and LARGE outdoor Propane taks for indoor gas, but wouldn't think to assume a SMALL tank is piped indoors.

I turn mine OFF outside, then let the flame bleed out the remainder of the gas, then turn it of INSIDE.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rusticstudio
I'm still confused: If you pipe the gas in, you still have to go outside to turn it on or off? Where my studio is situated, there is a window, but I would have to trek quite a ways around the corner, upstairs through the house, outside, and fish around under the deck to access that window area. I want to be safe, but I also don't want to make it such a PITA to torch that I never want to do it.
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  #160  
Old 2006-03-08, 4:45pm
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Can I jump in with a question?

I'm guilty of keeping the propane tank in my attached garage. I'd like to have the tank put outside but have the guage and on/off valve inside. Who would I hire to do this...a plumber? Or, is this a do-it-yourself project for my somewhat handy husband?

Also, can the tank be just outside the house or should it be several feet away?

Thanks. Appreciate all the good info.
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  #161  
Old 2006-03-08, 5:01pm
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It could be a do it yourself job, IF the person doing is expierenced in gas piping... Best is probably to have plumber do it... Also check local building codes, it may have to have local building inspector check it when complete.

Dale
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  #162  
Old 2006-04-09, 6:14pm
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Default Using 1lb bottles of propane inside

I see that it's ok to have these small bottles indoors. I have a spare bedroom that has a sliding glass door. I'll be starting out with a HH torch. If I put a fan at floor level pointing out the door, will that provide adequate ventilation? And should there also be a fan at a higher level for fumes from the torch itself?

Also, I live in a windy area. I am guessing that this would preclude working outside? I'm like the gal who lives in an apartment. No garage, but I do have a fenced back yard. I will probably be using the HH for awhile. Propane is a widely used fuel in this area. Many of the homes in our town run on propane rather than natural gas. I can get the larger tanks here. Did you say that I *can't* run a hose from the bbq tank through the sliding glass door from outside? If thats the case then I would opt to keep using the small bottles.

Thanks so much,

Cheryl in California
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  #163  
Old 2006-04-10, 4:46am
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No, you CAN run a hose through an open door to an outside fuel tank. This is a *temporary* installation, and it must be taken apart at the end of the session.

Remember you can only have a maximum of 2 (two) 1 pound tanks inside your house at any given time.

No, a fan pointed towards a door (or window) isn't sufficient ventilation. There are a lot of ventilation threads here in the safety forum...I strongly suggest that you read them.
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  #164  
Old 2006-04-10, 8:47am
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Thanks Mike. What about working outside? Also, if a fan pointing out the door won't work, is there anything that will? I rent my apartment so I can't go cutting holes in walls to install fans! I do have the option of setting up in my Dad's garage that has a line from the house propane supply into a place where I can set up a studio. It's an hour round trip so I really need to make sure this is something I want to do before I set up there. And I will read the threads on ventilation! Thanks again!
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  #165  
Old 2006-04-17, 8:12am
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Thanks to Dale, Mike, and Bill.....I have mine outside. DH still thinks it would be safe inside...sigh.
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  #166  
Old 2006-04-18, 4:18am
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Did you mention the insurance part to him - that if there is a fire/explosion, the insurance could/would be cancelled and no payout to you?
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  #167  
Old 2006-04-18, 8:55am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by collectiblesbyrose
.I have mine outside. DH still thinks it would be safe inside...sigh.
Have hubby look at this message thread...

http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9844

Dale
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  #168  
Old 2006-05-09, 11:20am
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Here's another example of a 20lb propane tank in the house that just happened yesterday, here in Ohio... I wish you could see the pictures. It blew the back of the house off. Please be safe! http://www.dispatch.com/news-story.p...09-D10-01.html
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  #169  
Old 2006-05-10, 5:38pm
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My tank is outside on the deck and plumbed into my basement studio. It took a long discussion to get my husband to drill that hole in the house but I'm happy he did. And the gas store was happy to lend advice and help so that it was done right. I feel safe in my studio and that piece of mind is worth a lot to me.

Karen
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  #170  
Old 2006-05-11, 5:57am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roseanne
Here's another example of a 20lb propane tank in the house that just happened yesterday, here in Ohio... I wish you could see the pictures. It blew the back of the house off. Please be safe! http://www.dispatch.com/news-story.p...09-D10-01.html
wow the h eater he was using was meant to be used with the 1 lb cannisters and he hooked a 20lb tank to it at least thats what I get from the story. Thats so dangerous not only that but he could have died from carbon monoxide poisoning if the house had not exploded first! There was a horrible tragic incdent in my honme town a few years ago some kids were camping in a truck and used a propane heater in a closed up truck and all died from carbon monoxide poisoning
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  #171  
Old 2006-05-11, 6:05am
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Around here they call them 'fish house killers' during the ice fishing season. Every year there seems to be a handful of people who 'just don't get it' and die from CO poisoning with these things running full blast in a tightly sealed ice fishing shack.

At least here in MN, they do sell them so that they can be used with a 20# tank, heck, I've got one in my shed that I used when I was building my house - try running PVC and copper pipe when its below zero!
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  #172  
Old 2006-05-11, 11:52am
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That guy was doing something he really shouldn't have.

I have a question while I'm here, I have a propane grill in the garage with a 20lb tank on it. My garage is under a bedroom in the house, and I was told by the community that I can't keep it outside. So it's okay to store it inside, as long as it's not used inside. Then I saw a neighbor in his garage grillin' away with the door open. These houses are villas so they share a common wall. When I said something, i was told it's ok b/c the door was open and the grill was only 2-3 ft away from it.
So would it be that bad to hook up a phantom and work 2-3 ft away from the door?

I am under the impression that a propane grill uses more BTU's than a phantom. And higher BTU's increases the chances of an exploding tank.
Is this correct?

Has anyone ever heard of a phantom blowing up a 20 lb propane cylinder?
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  #173  
Old 2006-05-11, 5:40pm
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Its not the BTU or anything to do with flame.... NFPA (National Fire Prevention Association) states "you shall not store any propane tanks larger that one pound in a residence". It also states "If garage is attached to house, its considered part of residence"... It has to do with the VOLUME of gas stored in container in residence (garage). Tell manager that storing the 20 tank in garage is illegal in almost every state in US... Have him go to library or fire department and look up NFPA Part 58 on rules for storing propane tanks. I think state and county and city law trumps managers (community) rules.

Dale
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  #174  
Old 2006-05-11, 6:13pm
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Tanks explode when they are impinged upon by open flame. Go back to page 1 and read the first post that started this thread. That is why it is unsafe and illegal to keep more than (2) one pound cylinders of propane inside a residence (be it single family or multiple family) or attached garage.
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  #175  
Old 2006-05-19, 9:07am
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No, it isn't reasonable, and despite what the fire marshall and the fireman said, keeping a 20# propane tank inside an attached garage is a violation of the fire code in every single state in the US.

If there is a fire and resulting explosion, the fact that you had a 20# propane tank in the garage is enough for the insurance company to void your insurance and not pay out on the claim.

You may also get sued by the fire department if there is any loss of property (fire trucks or equipment) or loss of life, and again, your property insurance company probably won't defend you on that either.

I don't know how many times its been said by me and others...

DO NOT KEEP YOUR PROPANE TANKS IN THE HOUSE OR AN ATTACHED GARAGE.

Stop trying to find ways around this, and just break down and do it the right and safe way, please!!!
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  #176  
Old 2006-05-19, 3:12pm
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I probably shouldn't have even posted in the first place. To me it seems like the only examples of explosions that have been given are situations where the tanks are being misused. It's not possible for me to drill freaking holes in the walls and pipe the gas in, the community doesn't allow tanks to be stored outside. Property insurance won't even pay for hurricane damages, so there is no argument. MIKE: YOU DONT NEED TO USE CAPS, I'M PERFECTLY CAPABLE OF READING LOWERCASE LETTERS. When I blow my neighborhood up you'll be the first person to know. Why do you feel the need to try and make people feel ignorant for asking a question?
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  #177  
Old 2006-05-19, 5:17pm
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Yeah, propane in the house, what the heck!
If it blows up I was probably cursed by Satan and would have died some other way.
Mike Aurelius would be all thrilled if my house blew up anyway.
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  #178  
Old 2006-05-20, 1:20am
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I've read some of this thread and when I came to your last post Courtney, I shook my head and closed the window and walked away. I thought about what you said and I had to come back to write this. I couldn't not write, in all good conscience.

Accidents happen, equipment fails, s**t happens, it happens all the time, everyday to people like you and me. Are you really willing to risk your life and those of your loved ones, neighbors, etc.?

Picture this: A brand new full tank of propane or maybe it's a full tank that you swapped at the hardware store, sitting in your garage overnight. What you don't know is that the valve has a leak, a manufacturing defect perhaps. While you're upstairs snugly and smugly asleep, that tank is leaking. You get up in the morning and go to the garage and flip on the light switch and boom, you're dead - or so severely burned you wished you were. Whoever was upstairs with you might be dead too. Anyone nearby is injured by exploding debris or burns.

Mike knows what he's talking about, take his advice. It is illegal in every state of this country to have more propane than 2 one pound cannisters inside your house. It's the law for a reason. Maybe you just don't want to hear the truth because the truth doesn't work for you. Think of what you're risking. Think of what you've got to lose.

It comes down to this...if you can't do it right, don't do it. It's a simple concept, just not what you want to hear.
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Old 2006-05-20, 8:33am
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Dale M. Dale M. is offline
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Listen to Lindag and Mike and take heed to what they say!!!

Dale
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Old 2006-05-20, 5:25pm
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MikeAurelius MikeAurelius is offline
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Courtney -- forums like this exist for a reason - to spread information on the correct and legal way to do things.

We can't force you to do it the correct and legal way - that's your personal decision.

However - please keep in mind that if there is an "accident", insurance adjusters are going to be looking at internet websites like this, and they are going to see that those of us who know, have been giving the same advice over and over and over and over and over and over (ad infinitum)...

In the end, it's your decision about whether you put yourself, your family and neighbors at risk.

When I write in caps, it's always for emphasis. I don't shout, and I try not to make people feel ignorant, but when it comes up, I have to ask this: If we haven't said it enough, or in so many different ways, why are you taking offense at what I wrote, when you already knew in advance what I was going to write? Did you really think that you were going to get special dispensation because of your (not) special situation?

I'm sorry, but safety is the number one issue for me and Dale and many others. You may not like the message or the way it is delivered, but the message remains the same. We are trying to keep you and everyone else safe. You are under no obligation to follow our advice, but if you don't follow the advice, you are putting everything you own and those nearest and dearest to you at risk. If you can live with that, and those that live near you can live with that, fine...
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