Total newbie has a torch question

[cooknet]

Hi all,
I hope I'm posting this in thre correct place!

OK, let me forst start off by saying I'm the newbiest of newbies, never once actually "made" a bead, (but plan on being a professional in a matter of hours...LOL) and I don't have all the necessary equipment yet (the proper torch) but I'm starting to "play around" with melting glass and "attempting" to create just a very simple bead on a mandrel with the torch that I "do" have.

The torch is a Berzomatic TS4000, with a MAPP Pro tank currently screwed into it.

I am very soon going to buy a "hothead" torch at a local shop, so this issue may or may not remedy itself when I do that, but I thought I'd ask this just so I know a little more on the subject.

The question i have is that when I melt the glass rod in the flame using this torch, I get this black crap all through the glass, it looks like "soot" from the burning fuel, it discolours the glass, and leave a weird black residue all ofer the outside that is pemenent and does not come off.

Is this just because the particular torch I'm using is not "mixing" the MAPP gas properly with the air, thus causing gunk to form on the glass?

That's what I'm "assuming" is going on.

I'm sure to those who are experienced here are laughing at what a "stupid" question this is, which is probably totally "obvious" to everyone, well, everyone but me that is...lol.

Oh, by the way, I know it looks funny, but this is my "very first" attempt at a glass bead, I've never even made just a round simple one yet, so go easy on me, this is the "first" attempt at a glass bead ever...lol.

I actually was just "playing" around, not "seriously" trying to create anything, just seeing how the glass moves and feels while molten, getting the "feel" of it

Just thought You'd like to see the absolute very beginning of my new glass career...hehe.

Thanks!
Chris

[papimom]

The soot you are getting is from the reduction flame of your torch. Must likely, you are working too close to the torch head, where the flame candles are yellow. Try moving you glass out a few more inches into the blue of the flame.
Joan

[cooknet]

Originally Posted by papimom

The soot you are getting is from the reduction flame of your torch. Must likely, you are working too close to the torch head, where the flame candles are yellow. Try moving you glass out a few more inches into the blue of the flame.
Joan

Hi Joan,

I actually noticed that when it was further away, there was more soot, but even when close, right into the blue flame, it still immediately goes all sooty and discoloured right away, you cna actually "see" the soot kinda traveling around on the molton glass surface, and the glass itself just goes murky when it cools.

Acutally, I've just added pics, you can "see" how "murky" it looks.

Thanks!
Chris

[Natsprat]

Hey Chris,

Not a bad go for a first ever try!!!!!

After having a squizz at the photos they are nowhere near as "sooty" as my first ones on the hothead were. Joan is right about the place to hold the glass in the flame, but who really knows with one of those torches? I know on the hothead you will find it easier for sure, but there can still be some sooting up if you work too close or use some of the "tricky" glass like the opalino stuff. Also I found that the the colour would change to red on the hothead with some of the green and blue glass if I didn't work it just right.

Just keep trying and ask lots of questions, there is a real wealth of information on this forum once you get into it.

When I started I decided to just practice and accept that I will waste a stack of glass for a while and it worked well for me. My sister is more of a perfectionist and has a lovely setup...... but has not made one bead for the last year!!!!!!

Keep up the playing around!

Nat

[Kym]

Nat, it sounds like your sisters stuff might go rusty. Better save it for her and take it your place for a long clean up!
Oops, sorry about the hijack,Chris.

cheers
Kym

[kbinkster]

First of all, congratulations! I would say that your first attempt was successful.


Two things may be going on with your glass.

The soot part is from the unburned fuel, just like you suspected.

However, there is something else that could be going on that you need to know about for when you start lampworking with a lampworking torch. I cannot tell for sure without knowing which colors you used, but judging just on some of what I see in the picture, the other thing going on is reduction. Reduction is where you have a flame poor in oxygen (or rich in fuel) and the flame gets the oxygen it needs from the metal oxides that are in the glass (what gives it its color). The metal oxides float to the surface where the flame grabs the oxygen and then what you have left is basically metal. In some instances, it leaves a shiny metallic sheen or layer and in other instances, it leaves a layer of a different color (like some greens leave a reddish color, some colors leave a black or brown)- more often than not, it's a dark muddy color.

Like I said, I cannot tell for sure that that is going on with some of the colors in your bead because I don't know what colors you used (you could have mixed some together intentionally), but reduction is good to know about for future reference.

[Dale M.]

One common mistake beginners make with a fuel/air torch is trying to open valve as much as possible and getting as BIG a flame as possible....

This is wrong.... As soon as flame become big and bushy and unruly you are allowing more fuel through torch than it can properly burn ... This is one basis for soot.....

Open torch valve fully then start closing it back down till you have nice tame flame and the center of flame (light blue portion) has a nice sharp pencil point (not fuzzy on edges) .... This is hottest flame and cleanest flame torch is capable of, opening valve more just takes you in to a direction where you have more soot and less heat....

Dale

[cooknet]

Hi there,
Thanks for all your info, i really appreciate it.

One major problem with the crappy torch I'm currently using is that is cannot be adjusted". It's either "ON" or "OFF".

So, I "can't" turn down the flame even if i wanted to.

I tried agian today, taking into account all the suggestions here, it's pretty much the same, "soot" city....lol

I "did" notice it "slightly" decreased when being held further away from the flame as possible, but it just didn't get "hot" enough to really "melt" like i needed it to.

The flame "looks" blue through and through, but as soon as the glass "touches" it, a bright yellow trail appears.

Like i said, all of this should "disappear", or at least become "acceptable" once I get a hot head torch from where my exfiencee teaches glass at Cranberry Stained Glass here in Halifax Nova Scotia.

I "am" getting a "feel" for how glass "flows" anyhow, by just "playing" around with this setup, it's 104 glass my exfiencee Vangy gave me to "play" with, she was kind enough to give me a "care package" to get started with, some glass, some mandrel rods, and some bead release, and a crock pot full of vermiculite, as I don't have a kiln, but she does.

She as usual has inspired me to do better in my life, and to become as creative as possible. It's so nice to have someone in your life who "cares" about nurturing your creativity, and helping you to do so. I owe her everything for that
(I know she reads this, hehe)

I'll post a picture of the "unusual" creation i made today later, once I'm sure it isn't going to "explode" in my face, hehe.

Thanks again all for all your kindess and suggestions, I can see the "type" of people this art "attracts", very kind, very helpful people.

Thanks

Chris

[cooknet]

Here are some pictures of my second glass bead I've ever made in my life....lol.

Again, go easy, I'm just playing, trying to "get a feel" for how glass moves, and flows, and still dealing with the crappy torch.

I'm going to call this one "The swine flu virus", hehe.

Thanks
Chris

[theglasszone]

Originally Posted by cooknet

...Chris

Hey, didn't I see this in a Star Trek episode (original series) called "The Savage Curtain"? http://www.wired.com/entertainment/h...sters?slide=10 Wow, like Roddenberry, you are a visionary!

Just kidding - looks like you've received lots of great advice and are making great progress...keep up the good work and when you get your Hot Head, you'll really be able to work much cleaner, I'm sure!

Welcome to LE and the glass obsession!

De in CA

[cooknet]

HAHAHAHAHA!!!

That is SOOOO funny!
LOL

I'm glad yo uhave a "sense of humour", don't worry, I'm not one of those people that gets "offended" by anything. I'm here to learn, and I can make fun of myself and my art as much as anyone.

I actually "just don't" undestand people that can't take critisism, I men, how "else" are you going to "grow" unless you look inwards towards your "self" and find your faults and things that need improving in your character, artwork, or whatever it is you need to grow towards?

Anyhow, I just made my THIRD bead ever, it's a panda bear, it's sitting in the vermiculite now. How long shoult it "Cook" in there and at what temperature before it would be considerd "safe" to take out and take of the mandrel??

I'll post a pic of it when done, again, just messing around, I'm actually "standing" uncomforatbly at a shop bench, and have my arms raised above my chest doing this, so my "control" is at a minimum, if ya know what I mean, hehe.

I'll get serious about this when I can REALLY dedicate my time to it, I shouldn't really even be doing this right now, I have orders to produce "carved" stone artworks for the local metaphysical shop here, gotta get going on it!

Take care! Thanks again!
Chris

[cooknet]

Here is my "panda".

Not great, I definitely have alot of "control issues" yet to overcome, but I'm slowly getting it.

Keep in mind this is the third glass bead I've EVER made in my life, so I know it's not great....lol.

The "soot" seems to not be so bad on this one, although you can see a nice "soot streak" on the front of the bear, on its belly.

Thanks for looking!
Chris

[Vangy]

Hi Chris,

Nice start!

I do want to clarify one point, however. I teach wire working at Cranberry Stained Glass, not glass work.

Remember, safety first - protect your eyes and lungs!

Keep up the great work,
Vangy

[kbinkster]

I'm glad you're catching on so quickly, Chris. Sometimes when you start out, instructions can seem to be about as clear as mud.

[Karen Hardy]

Originally Posted by cooknet

I'm sure to those who are experienced here are laughing at what a "stupid" question this is, which is probably totally "obvious" to everyone, well, everyone but me that is...lol.
Chris

Chris, I just want to verbally give you a quick spanking here.

The whole purpose of this forum (besides being a place we
can bitch and moan about spouses/children/customers and post
pictures of our pets ) is to educate and learn. The very LAST thing
on anyone's mind is to read a newbies post and think it's a stupid
question.

There are a lot of people who don't have the guts to post
here and ask what they think are "stupid questions". This brings me
back to my high school biology class. I remember being chased down the
hall by the teacher who gave me grief because I was ditching his class. I
asked him what was the point, since I turned in my homework and was
ok on the tests. He told me "I want you there because you ask intelligent
questions that other people are afraid to ask because they don't want to
seem dumb." So by asking a "stupid question" you are in essence asking
it for a good percentage of the newbies here that are afraid to post it
for fear of appearing dumb.

The upside of posting a question that we "old timers" and more
experienced lampworkers might find "simplistic" or easy to solve gives
our newer members a chance to ANSWER you. You have NO idea the
feeling of pride and contribution a person here feels when a question
comes up that they CAN answer. Especially people here that have been
getting all THEIR questions answered, but haven't really felt confident
enough to "give back" to the forum.

I used to try and answer EVERY question people ask, but lately I've been
stepping back and letting the newer members get their feet wet before I
have my say. Think of it as a "teachers in training" program . EVERYONE
here wants to share and help others. EVERYONE. By asking something that is
a good basic question (like "how do I make a round bead") you give people
here a chance to help. And when you find yourself in the position of
answering others as to why their beads are covered in black crap, then you
will understand about the joy in coming full circle here.

So keep posting all the "Stupid/Obvious/ridiculous/embarrassing" questions
you can come up with. Learn from OUR mistakes (we'll be more than glad
to share them and post pictures of our bead disasters for your viewing
pleasure) and welcome to the forum. We newbies!

[dogmama45]

Thanks so much for that explanation of what happens in a reducing flame. I've been having a lot of trouble burning beads lately and was getting really discouraged. I kept lowering the size of the flame, etc, but nothing seemed to help. Your scientific explanation really helped me! Now I feel like I understand why this happens and maybe can fix my problem!
Again my thanks!
Carol
dogmama45

Originally Posted by kbinkster

First of all, congratulations! I would say that your first attempt was successful.


Two things may be going on with your glass.

The soot part is from the unburned fuel, just like you suspected.

However, there is something else that could be going on that you need to know about for when you start lampworking with a lampworking torch. I cannot tell for sure without knowing which colors you used, but judging just on some of what I see in the picture, the other thing going on is reduction. Reduction is where you have a flame poor in oxygen (or rich in fuel) and the flame gets the oxygen it needs from the metal oxides that are in the glass (what gives it its color). The metal oxides float to the surface where the flame grabs the oxygen and then what you have left is basically metal. In some instances, it leaves a shiny metallic sheen or layer and in other instances, it leaves a layer of a different color (like some greens leave a reddish color, some colors leave a black or brown)- more often than not, it's a dark muddy color.

Like I said, I cannot tell for sure that that is going on with some of the colors in your bead because I don't know what colors you used (you could have mixed some together intentionally), but reduction is good to know about for future reference.

[kbinkster]

You're welcome, Carol.

[CelesteK]

Your beads are amazing--in a good way. My advice--get a hot head immediately!! Or go straight to an oxy/propane set-up.

Celeste

[cooknet]

Hmmmm..... I've got an oxy-mapp gas torch, perhaps I ca just yank the cannister of "mapp" off there and twist on a "propane" tank instead? Would "that" be better than just a plain old "mapp" gas torch??

Chris