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Boro Room -- For Boro-related tips, techniques, and questions.

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  #1  
Old 2011-03-21, 9:12am
Seven3o5 Seven3o5 is offline
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Default First torch

Hey there fellow pyros. I am a glass noob and just recently started making glass beads on a mandrel last week. I am using MAPP gas on a torch attachment, the canisters of MAPP are being used way to fast so i'm looking at acquiring real tools(torch/kiln/supplies). I am fixed on Boro so would like tools i can use to make foot long hollow objects with boro for atleast a few years to come. I feel as though i need a new torch(i was thinking a barracuda but please let me know if you have other suggestions), a kiln, a machine that makes oxygen, tools and boro glass. You guys would honestly be the greatest help by giving me names of kilns, boro companies, oxygen device companies, tool companies or torch companies and where to buy them(either from a website, store or from on of you!) that would be ideal for a first time boro user(i recently came across a some money so i would rather get great things that last for a while vs cheap things that do the job for only a while). Anything to help me get started in this awesome adventure would be greatly appreciated. Please ask me any questions that will help you make better suggestions.

Thank you guys for your time, seriously, thank you,


Seven
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  #2  
Old 2011-03-21, 9:32am
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Where are you located?
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  #3  
Old 2011-03-21, 10:44am
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Seven3o5,

I replied to you other post and will try to give you some advice here also. Please do not think I'm discouraging you, on the contrary I only wish to help you be successful.

You seem to be in the 'falling in love' stage of the addiction. You want to fly before you learn to walk. Slow down and take the time to investigate what aspect of glass is your true love. Be it marbles, sculpture, beads, goblets, vessels, bracelets, pendents, whatever. As you try these various things at some point you will discover that one will take over your focus and be your calling. Maybe not one of the above but one you find on your own.

I always advise to get the best tools you can afford. GTT torches are arguably the best. Overall I think more glass people use or want to have a GTT torch. They retain the best resale value if you decide at some point that glass is not for you or you want to move up to a bigger torch. A lot of people use the Carliisle torches. They are good torches aslo as are the Bethleham torches. There are many out there and each have their strong points and each seem to work better at one thing or another. Try to get some time on different torches to feel them out. Everyones working style is different and one torch will suit you better than others. The basic hand tools, marvers, reamers, paddles, molds, etc are pretty standard and you will find a big range of quality.

The size objects you want to make will determine your kiln size. You mentioned items up to a foot long and that takes you out of the bead annealer range and into a kiln with internal dimensions longer than 12" so you are talking in the $1000 plus range new. Your most important tool and probably the hardest to obtain is a good and adequate ventilation system. They can be inexpensive but MUST be good. Glasses are also very important. You only have one set of eyes so taking care of them is vitally important. Get good glasses first thing!

Oxycons come in all flavors. refurbished medical units up to commercial units. Prices range from several hundred dollars to thousands of dollars. A unit of a size for the work you describe will probably set you back around a thousand dollars. Get a unit that has slightly more capacity than your torch of choice requires. If this turns out to be a full time occupation then you may want to think about going to liquid oxy (LOX) as it is the cheapest way to buy oxy but has its drawbacks unless used full time.

As you can see I've only just touched the edges of working glass. Do a lot of exhaustive research, talk to as many people as you can, find and visit any and all glass workers in your area as you can. Take a few classes and read as much as you can find.

Good luck, PJH

Last edited by cheng076; 2011-03-21 at 10:48am.
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  #4  
Old 2011-03-21, 10:52am
Seven3o5 Seven3o5 is offline
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I am in Tallahassee, Florida. Thank you Cheng, i must admit i am attempting to fly when i am currently crawling but i can't help it! once i learn how to fly i will no longer have the desire to walk. But regardless i will be googling about 20 terms you just suggested. Thank you, if anyone has any other suggestions they would be very much appreciated,

llll ll
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  #5  
Old 2011-03-21, 11:57am
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Welcome to the obsession!

There are a number of vendors (myself included) that can assist you with your addiction.

Since you indicated that you want to work with boro, I think you already know that you won't be able to work on a Mapp gas torch. What is your budget? Can you get bottled oxygen locally, or are you planning on using an oxygen concentrator?

An entry level setup (torch, hoses, regulator(s), safety glasses, basic tools, etc.) is typically in the $600-$1000 range. This does not include a kiln, which can easily be another $500-$1000+ (depending on the size of the work you plan to make, and the availability of 220 volts in your studio). A safe work area, with proper ventilation, lighting, and a fireproof work surface will be an additional cost.

Please let me know if I can answer any questions for you.

Malcolm
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  #6  
Old 2011-03-21, 12:47pm
Seven3o5 Seven3o5 is offline
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I still need to do far more research but as of right now i am thinking of an oxygen concentrator but before today had never heard of liquid oxy. I have a 2000-3000$ budget for materials. How would one find out whether or not they have a 220 volt availability? I do not have a studio at the moment and am attempting to find one so i do not have to use my one bedroom apartment. I have visted your site, it seems i will need to do more research to navigate it(its formatting is fine, the terminology is not familiar to me yet).
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  #7  
Old 2011-03-21, 1:25pm
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If there is someone that has a studio close by I would suggest that you pay them a visit. Seeing someone else's set up can help you visualize what you will need. I worked with the torch you are working with for several years before upgrading to what I have now. Everything that you learn on this smaller torch can be done on a bigger torch, just faster. So anything you learn now is not wasted, and can be applied to bigger things. I agree with you in spending your money on good tools and such, just do lots of research on your choice of torch, kiln and oxygen supply. In the torch room there is some info on the scorpion torch made by GTT (very good read). Good luck.
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Old 2011-03-21, 1:47pm
Seven3o5 Seven3o5 is offline
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The research i have done thus far has me set on the path to a GTT i now have to decide between the phantom and the Scorpion. Still rather clueless in regards to kiln and oxygen concentrator, but know 2000x more than i knew this morning. So far all of the help i've received on this site is priceless. Thank you to all that helped at this point.
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  #9  
Old 2011-03-21, 1:50pm
Seven3o5 Seven3o5 is offline
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If anyone in Florida and can teach me anything about boro i'd be willing to acquire some private classes from you just shoot me a private message.
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  #10  
Old 2011-03-21, 2:26pm
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I'm still getting set up and suspect whatever anybody thinks this hobby costs, you should double it! It isn't the torch, but all the little stuff that gets you- regulators, hoses, fittings, anti-flashback devices, fire extinguisher and first aid kit, not to mention setting up the work area and ventilation. You may need to plumb in propane with iron pipe, valves, etc. Your existing lighting may not be adequate. You need glasses suitable for boro. Don't forget nice graphite tools. Then there's glass! Glass is dirt cheap, except for the glass I want. I don't think my taste is any better than anybody else, but somehow this glass has been specially identified and specially priced, just for me!

Best,
Conrad
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  #11  
Old 2011-03-21, 2:45pm
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In your apartment, it is unlikely that you have 220 volts. Well ... maybe ... if you have an electric clothes dryer. Otherwise, you're limited to 110 volts, and probably only 15 amps at that. This will significantly restrict the size of kiln you can run.

You didn't say if you were on the ground floor, or an upper floor, or even if your apartment will allow open flames. Many have rules against even having BBQ grills.

If you are going to be using an oxygen concentrator, you're going to again be limited to how large of a torch you can run.

I will echo what others have said: Take a class. See how their studio is set up. Ask questions. Try as many torches as you can. Buy some instructional DVDs. Read some books.

This is a craft/artform that takes time to learn. Be patient. Start small. You will make mistakes. That's the way you learn.

Malcolm
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  #12  
Old 2011-03-21, 3:34pm
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Lots of words of wisdom here. I just wanted to add that I just spent a little time on a scorpion running on one 5 lpm concentrator on the inner flame and one 8 lpm concentrator on the outer flame and I was very impressed. I also have used a phantom and typically use a mirage. For the work you are describing, you will probably end up with quite a large torch if you stick to that path. I think for starting out, to have the ability to make pendants, smallish blown work, medium sized boro sculpture, etc, I think you would be happy with the scorpion. It is a versatile (and HOT!) torch and it will run better on concentrators than anything else in its class. I don't think either the scorpion or the phantom will be the end all for you, but will be a fantastic starting point.
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  #13  
Old 2011-03-21, 8:17pm
Seven3o5 Seven3o5 is offline
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Alright, i took Deb Tarry's advice and visited another studio in my area and have come across some new information. I will now be using oxygen tanks since they are easy to come by in my area. I saw two torches of the same price range(i believe 1200-1500) and both seemed very different in regards to flames and noise. The torches i saw were the GTT Phantom and a Carlisle CC. I was impressed with both. I will be either moving out of my apartment to a house or borrowing a friends garage so my apartment is irrelevant considering i couldn't even get efficient lighting to make a bead! Would there be a way to create a 220 from connecting two 110's?(it might be a stupid question but why not ask) Would there be a better way to create a 220 from nothing. I really appreciate all the advice so far and have taken it all into strong consideration. Thank you.
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  #14  
Old 2011-03-21, 9:05pm
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Yes, there is a way to use a pair of 110 circuits to get 220 VAC provided they are on separate legs and you have 220 VAC at the power box. However, doing so is against every electrical code in the US. And for obvious reasons.
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  #15  
Old 2011-03-21, 9:21pm
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Power almost always comes into the house as 220, as that's what stoves, water heaters and baseboard heaters require. It's just a matter of running the appropriate wiring from the breaker box to a 220 outlet.

CH
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  #16  
Old 2011-03-21, 9:27pm
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What do you need 220 for? The only thing I can think of would be the kiln and there are plenty the size you are looking for that would work fine on 110. If you need 220 you would also need to know what amperage. You would not want to combine 2 existing 110 circuits. This needs to be run as one circuit from the panel to the destination. Do you have an electric stove or dryer? They would be 220.
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  #17  
Old 2011-03-21, 11:57pm
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For now I would say avoid 220. As mentioned there are kilns out there that are about the size you want that run on 110. My Paragon does and it's inside dimensions are 11 x 11 x 11 inches, almost a foot

Here is an explanation of 220 into a residence. If you look at the cables that come into your house from the pole you will see two heavy black cables and a bare silver colored cable. The silvery cable is the neutral leg of the circuit. Some people think of it as ground but it is not. Each of the other black cables is 110 volts higher in potential than the neutral but each is a seperate potential seperated from each other. That means that if you measure from one black cable to the other black cable you will find 220 volts. You will also notice that where the cables from the pole connect to the weatherhead at your house that the bare cable connects to a similar black cable that has a white stripe denoting it as the neutral leg. If you look inside the circuit breaker box which you should not do unless you already know all this the neutral wire connects to a solid buss bar and all the white neutral wires from all the recepticles and other circuits in your house connect to it. Each of the black cables connect to a seperate buss bar that runs under the various circuit breakers. The individual citcuit breakers will connect to one of these hot buss bars alternating from one to the other to spread the load and will have only one black wire running to it. A 220 circuit breaker will have 2 black wires going into it and will connect to both hot sides under the breaker such that it has a potential of 220 volts between the two black wires.

Does that clear the electricity thing up any?
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  #18  
Old 2011-03-22, 10:01am
Seven3o5 Seven3o5 is offline
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Actually yeah, i now know i will need an electrician, though i will look into it but either way i'm loving the dimensions of your paragon, how much did that thing run you?
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Old 2011-03-22, 10:09am
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What is a raku in regards to kilns? I found a paragon that i am strongly considering. the specs are 120-volt, 15 Amps, 1,800 watts would this allow me to just plug it into any wall plug? It is 12"w x 12"d with .73 CU FT for 900 delivered off of clay-king.com. Good deal or too good to be true?
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Old 2011-03-22, 10:43am
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Check the fuse/breaker for the outlet you want to use. It's too much for a 15A circuit, but a 20A should feed it no problem if you don't have much of anything else on that line.

My garage has a single 15A line, so you should see me turning the lathe, mill and air compressor on and off as I move around. The light are on the same circuit. Sometimes I had to turn the lights off if doing heavy cuts on the table saw, but I switched to CFLs which helped a lot. Table saw + darkness = trouble.
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Old 2011-03-22, 8:45pm
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I had a custom kiln built for me by The Glass Hive. It is 21" X 12" wide and 9" deep. 15AMP 110volt.

It has two bead doors and a punty door (with removable support shelf) on the bottom of the right bead door and the top opens.

Mike and Pam are great people and they have GREAT support.

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Old 2011-03-22, 10:16pm
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My Paragon cost me $800. But that was several years ago. I got it that cheap because I had to repair some brick on the apron of the door opening. I actually use my smaller AIM most of the time... it will take more marbles than I ever plan on making in a day.

I may be wrong but Raku is a nickname for Iris Orange as well as a form of Japanese pottery that gets its color(s) from gasses in the kiln when certian materials are burned while firing the piece. I'm not totally sure this is accurate however.
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Old 2011-03-23, 5:41am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheng076 View Post
I may be wrong but Raku is a nickname for Iris Orange as well as a form of Japanese pottery that gets its color(s) from gasses in the kiln when certian materials are burned while firing the piece. I'm not totally sure this is accurate however.
That is correct - Iris Orange can yield similar colors to raku pottery when properly worked. It's a soft glass color by the way. It's pretty neat to play with with but as boro workers we have access to a wide variety of reactive colors so it's probably not as exciting as it was to someone who works strictly with soft glass.

To the OP:

If this is the paragon kiln you're looking at: http://www.clay-king.com/kilns/parag...tist_kiln.html it's probably not going to be ideal, although it would probably be ok for larger pieces or batch annealing since it seems to have a digital controller. The Raku option when associated with kilns is most definitely NOT anything to do with glass, although as noted above there is a type of glass which has been called "raku". Personally I'd suggest you avoid this one though - it seems designed more for ceramics than glass.

If you've got your heart set on a Paragon, Clay-King's Paragon Kiln Page has a bunch of lampworking kilns listed, if you scroll down. Personally, I'd suggest the Bluebird XL - it has plenty of room for beadmaking, pendants, marbles, small sculptural pieces and small hollow forms (shot glasses to sherlocks to ??? - basically anything that will fit through the 4" doors). I have the smaller bluebird with the fiber blanket liner and love it, but now as time goes by, I'm wishing that the XL had been available when I bought mine. This one would also work very nicely for anything from beads to larger sculptural pieces (well, medium sized anyway).

A couple years ago I bought a larger 240v AIM kiln (it came with almost an entire lampworking studio) for the future. It has 2 bead doors, punty doors & a "guillotine" front that's around 18" wide x 10" x 10" inside and I've never even plugged it in - I just haven't made anything which requires that much space yet. Nor do I have 240 in my studio but that would be easy enough.

A lot depends on what you're going to be making. I will say one thing - that glass hive kiln above has me drooling. It's super fancy
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Last edited by Bunyip; 2011-03-23 at 5:49am.
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  #24  
Old 2011-03-23, 10:48pm
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Check out the AIM kilns on our site the 99ls just plugs into 110
We sell a lot of them to the glass blowers
Our new scorpian GTT has free shipping while supply lasts

http://trevsglass.com/index.php?main...f8659cb3bb90f8 Only $550 for that kiln
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  #25  
Old 2011-03-24, 2:20pm
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Looked on the link above and my Paragon is a F-130 without the bead door flap.
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  #26  
Old 2011-04-13, 10:44am
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Just a reminder -- torches and kilns are really exciting and playing with new glass is like finding a new love -- but before a torch or kiln or glass, you need ventilation and boro-quality eye protection. Without those you'll be very excited but also blind or dead. Neither ventilation nor glasses are as exciting when you first start, because you assume you'll be fine... but you won't be unless you have an appropriate ventilation system (you can't just open the window or door, even if its a garage door) and didys with welder's #3 or #5.
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Old 2011-04-14, 1:41pm
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Yes yes ventilation, the general rule is 100 cfm for every square foot of workbench space that you have, but some opt for more just to be on the safe side. That's moving a lot more air than your average fart fan. There are plenty of kits out there if you just look around a bit, they will save you a lot of time and effort as opposed to building you own system. Regardless of witch rout you go with make sure your moving that air away from you and not some place behind you. That may seem like a duh kind of statement, but those fumes can kill you. Make sure you know the health risks that are associated with this addiction so you can be a part of our community for many years to come
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Old 2011-04-14, 4:57pm
Seven3o5 Seven3o5 is offline
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You guys are awesome... thank you so much. All of this information is perfect, i really appreciate it.
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  #29  
Old 2011-04-15, 9:51am
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The general rule is actually 100 or 125 cfm for each square foot of hood opening assuming you have a common square overhead hood. Other hood configurations require different calculations.
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