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Jelveh Designs - Glass Beads Torched One-by-One

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  #1  
Old 2008-07-06, 9:55pm
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Arrow Hot knobs - Mini CC

Had this in another thread, but it was at the end and I didn't get any answers...

So I have been reading the various threads comparing the minor to the mini cc and other torches. I really enjoyed using the mini cc recently and am interested in buying one. I have heard from a friend that she has trouble with very hot knobs on her mini CC. She is using an M15, so should be pushing plenty of oxygen. She makes sure the candles are not on the short side.

I am currently using an M10 which gets up to 5LPM. If I get the Mini should I just add another oxycon that gets at least 5 LPM or should I go higher? I do not want to get tanked oxy and don't want to worry about hot knobs if I run a mini cc on an oxycon.
Thanks for any feedback.
Alana
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  #2  
Old 2008-07-06, 10:53pm
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We run a Mini CC with 2 M15's. When working soft glass we use one M15 and when working boro we run them both. You cannot get full power out of the Mini with only one M15. If you decide to get a Mini it would be well worth getting another oxycon, the more oxy the better.
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Old 2008-07-07, 3:47am
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Has to do with the way you run your mix of oxygen and propane. When I set mine "right" they stay cool, otherwise they can get pretty hot.
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  #4  
Old 2008-07-07, 4:49am
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Hot knobs is a "normal" problem with the mini cc. When I work with boro, I run it hotter and don't have the hot knob problem. When I'm working 104, yes, the knobs get hot.

I think it's a common issue with the mini cc. Kinda like having freckles... normal for those who have them. Hot knobs = normal for a mini cc.

Sue
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Old 2008-07-07, 9:52am
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Hot knobs may be "normal" for a Mini CC, but it should not be normal.

Heat is the enemy of a torch. Heat causes all kinds of problems, including metal stress to the internal joints. Heat causes deterioration of the torch. So, even if it seems like a problem is widespread, it should not be considered "normal" in the sense that it is o.k..

I believe that the reason Carlisle recommends 3/8" neutral candles on the Mini CC is because you need candles at least that long in order to avoid the hot knobs. "What do candle lengths have to do with hot knobs?" you ask? Well, it has to do with the point of ignition - were the fuel and oxygen combust. That ignition point is very hot. The closer to the face of the torch it happens, the hotter the face of the torch gets. Well, the problem with the Mini CC is that it is made with a brass body. Brass is a soft metal that is easy to machine (probably why they chose to use it - it's cheaper than using stainless steel), but it is a very good conductor of heat (poor choice for a torch body). So, when the face of the torch heats up, the heat gets conducted back up the brass body of the torch and to the knobs. In my mind, it's a flawed design for a torch.

Anyway, in order to get 3/8" long neutral candles on a Mini CC, you need about 7 LPM of oxygen (that's that "standard usage" Carlisle talks about on their website). You can get long enough neutral candles on 5 LPM to work small soft glass beads, but you will overheat the torch and have hot knobs in the process.

To get long enough candles for a flame hot enough to work boro, the Mini CC needs about 10-11 LPM. You could work boro on less, but it will be slower than if you had more flow. So, if you were to put two 5 LPM machines together, you would have enough flow to work soft glass with the 3/8" neutral candles that Carlisle recommends and you would have enough to work small boro.

When adding concentrators together, try to put like pressures together (within a couple of psi). Otherwise, you will have one machine pressurizing the line so much that the second machine will not be able to put its product into the line effectively.

Oh, and speaking of pressure... too many times, people equate psi with heat. This is a misconception when it comes to using concentrators. On a tank situation with a regulator, you need to set the line pressure (psi) high in order to get more flow (volume per a given amount of time, like liters per minute [LPM] or cubic feet per hour [CFH]) out of the tank. On a concentrator, you set the flow rate (LPM) - or more precisely, the upper limit of the flow rate (the machine will only let out as much as will pass through your torch at any given flame setting). You do not have to have higher psi in order to have higher flow on for most torches, particularly the standard mix bead burners like the Mini CC. For these torches, it is the flow (LPM), the volume, the actual amount of oxygen that gets to your torch and its purity that matters - not so much the delivery pressure (psi). Where psi is important is where there are lots of restrictions in a torch that you need to push through or when you have a lot of jet to feed (then you would need higher psi to move the flow along). There just aren't that many restrictions or that many jets in standard mix bead torches.
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Old 2008-07-07, 7:19pm
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Thanks everyone for your comments. I appreciate the different perspectives. What is interesting about my friend's torch is that she is using an M15 and that should be plenty of oxygen to run the torch without hot knobs. She is also making sure to have candles the length recommended by Carlisle.

So, if it is typical of a Mini to have hotter knobs, then I will look at other torches that offer the bushier flame with the radiant heat for some larger pieces.

Thanks again!
Alana
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  #7  
Old 2008-07-11, 11:42am
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Alana,

I run a hellcat with 2-M-15's. I mostly use the inner burner (mini cc). In a year my knobs have never gotten hot. Heck, I don't think they've ever been warm. Its a good torch with lots of flexibilty.

Bonny
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  #8  
Old 2008-07-11, 11:52am
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I got some copper tubeing and a fitting for the gerden hose and wraped 2 twists aroud the torch and just tured on a drip of water.when I had a Mini it stayed nice and cool.
But it was ok with 2 5-Ltr cons. too
G.
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Old 2008-07-12, 11:00am
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I copied this from another thread and don't know who posted but:
The only problem I had with it has to do with the propane knob getting hot. This issue (as explained by Chris from Carlisle) has to do with the oxy - propane mix. (Check out the Carlisle website for more info) Carlisle recommends setting the propane pressure at 2 psi and the oxy at 5 psi. Unfortunately, I have all four of my torches hooked up to the same hose system and consequently HAVE to have the pressure set at 8 - 10 psi, in order not to lose pressure as the gas in the tank is depleted. Running the higher pressure on the Mini CC caused the propane knob to get hot. Others who own (and love) their Mini CC's have adjusted the propane pressure down, and kept the flame a neutral mix, and the knob stays cool.
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  #10  
Old 2008-07-13, 9:23am
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Quote:
When adding concentrators together, try to put like pressures together (within a couple of psi). Otherwise, you will have one machine pressurizing the line so much that the second machine will not be able to put its product into the line effectively.
This isn't an issue if you have the right y-connectors. I was concerned about this when I bought my second concentrator but the woman who sold me the y-connector assured me that it was not going to be a problem because the connector didn't allow for back flow.
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Old 2008-07-13, 11:28am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarleenMB View Post
This isn't an issue if you have the right y-connectors. I was concerned about this when I bought my second concentrator but the woman who sold me the y-connector assured me that it was not going to be a problem because the connector didn't allow for back flow.
It may prevent one machine from backflowing the other, but it does not stop the lower psi machine from backpressuring itself.
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Old 2008-07-13, 11:52am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cadia View Post
I copied this from another thread and don't know who posted but:
The only problem I had with it has to do with the propane knob getting hot. This issue (as explained by Chris from Carlisle) has to do with the oxy - propane mix. (Check out the Carlisle website for more info) Carlisle recommends setting the propane pressure at 2 psi and the oxy at 5 psi. Unfortunately, I have all four of my torches hooked up to the same hose system and consequently HAVE to have the pressure set at 8 - 10 psi, in order not to lose pressure as the gas in the tank is depleted. Running the higher pressure on the Mini CC caused the propane knob to get hot. Others who own (and love) their Mini CC's have adjusted the propane pressure down, and kept the flame a neutral mix, and the knob stays cool.
It has nothing to do with the pressure in the line - what the regulators regulate. You control the mix with the valves on the torch. Running a higher pressure with a larger flame actually cools off a torch more than running low pressures with a small flame - because that point of ignition is further out. I have run the Viper (one of the largest torches in the world) at full blast, turned it off, and felt the face of the torch - ice cold. I wouldn't say that any other torch face would be ice cold, but it would definitely be cooler after running a huge flame than after running a small flame.

Oh, and just a tip for running different torches off a manifold - With several torches running in-line, you need higher pressures so you don't get surges and drops. But, you can use an inline regulator to reduce the pressures to each torch. You really should not have to, though, since the valves control the mix. But, if you have a torch with low quality valves, it might be harder to fine tune unless you are running low pressures.

If you are running a big neutral flame, with long candles, and are still getting hot knobs (especially if it's just one knob), then it is possible that you have a pin leak in either the gas or oxygen chamber that is crossing over (leaking more) when the torch is running harder. You should send it in and get it checked out. In this type of situation, with a tiny pin leak, it's only going to act up when it's run harder - more flow through the torch equals more flow through the leak and there can be premixing in the torch, which causes parts of the torch to overheat. It won't necessarily act like a regular pre-mix, since it is premixing while already running, not at the slow start-up.
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Old 2008-07-13, 5:32pm
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OMG, Sally, thanks so much for your post. I have a mini cc with a 5LPM oxycon. I just purchased the oxycon and started using it this weekend. I was having issues with the hot knobs too. Based on the info you posted, I played around with it and now have cooler knobs. The propane knob is warm but no longer hot. I am currently only using this for soft glass and it is working wonderfully for me. I love it.
kbinkster was a big help too. I had my flame too small. Now that I have increased the size of my flame - all is well.
Thanks so much to both of you.
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Old 2008-07-15, 6:00pm
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I had no trouble with hot knobs on my one 5lpm 7 psi oxy con. I quess I just have the flame adjusted correctly (dumb luck). That was plenty heat for my 104 coe beads but I got another concentrator for when I want to play with boro or work large items. I love my mini cc.

Alison
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  #15  
Old 2008-07-16, 8:39pm
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Default I hate my MINI CC

I hate my mini cc. Those knobs, the propane is the worst, gets too hot for my fingers! I have the mini cc on a M-15. The flame is at 3/8, the psi is at 2. I've read all the threads. I would not recommend the mini cc on a concentrator. Its just to much of a hit or miss to get the flame just right. I even added a holding tank to see if that would help!

When I had the mini cc on the tanked oxy it was wonderful. No hot knobs.

I'm also in the market now for a new torch. Looking forward to reading what some of you would recommend. I really like the radiant heat that the mini cc gives! So what would be better?

Thanks
Kathy
PS I'm the friend that Alana, who started this thread, was talking about.
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Old 2008-07-16, 8:50pm
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sorry to hear it Kathy. I ADORE my mini CC. I'm running mine on two concentrators and the one time I noticed the knobs were getting too warm figured I had the candles too short so upped the gas. I set my propane regulator on 4psi. One of my concentrtors runs at 5 lpm and the other at 6. I set them to about 90-95% and off I go.

I really think you need to up your psi on the propane. I think that would help a lot.

edited to add I worked on a minor for 4 years before I bought the mini. Wouldn't go back.
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Old 2008-07-16, 9:48pm
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Thanks Darlene,

I have cooled off myself now. I was just so mad. Tomorrow I'm going to call Carlisle and see what they say. I like to stay with what Carlisle recommends with the psi settings. They know their torches. If they recommend to go higher then I will. Actually I have had it set on 3 before but had the same problem. I also didn't have this problem with the mini in the tanked oxy. Why would that make a difference?

Kathy
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Old 2008-07-16, 10:25pm
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Kathy, hot knobs aside, are you happy with how your set-up treats your glass? If so, then maybe you could build a little water cooling system kind of like G.L McBead described back in post #8 of this thread.

How big are the yellow/white tips at the end of your candles? Are they the same as or larger than what you remember from when you ran tanked oxygen? Are you able to keep the candles long, but shorten the yellow/white tips?
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Old 2008-07-16, 10:28pm
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Oh, forgot to add:

If you water-cool the torch, and you are still getting hot knobs, then you might have a leak inside the torch and should get it checked out.
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Old 2008-07-17, 4:51am
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Now that I think about it, I regularly run longer than 3/8" candles on my torch. Usually they're closer to half an inch. Maybe that's why my torch knobs don't get hot (and no matter how I write that sentence it just sounds ... bad). They do sometimes get warmish but not hot like that one time.
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Old 2008-07-17, 6:55am
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Hi Kim,
If I didn't have the hot knobs, yes I'm happy with my set up somewhat.
I work with 104 glass doing encased florals using several layers of glass. I work slow and don't want alot of force nor alot of heat to move my petals around. My candles are burning very close to the same size when I had the tanked. The yellow tips are somewhat bushy not tight and the center tip is just a hair longer then the rest. I've tried increasing the oxygen to have longer flame. I end up working farther out at the tip cause the heat gets to be to much to fast for my petals.
I reread post #8. I my mind I see water everywhere. The drips must evaperate faster then what I think. Seems like alot of trouble for the torch. There has to be one out there that gives that nice radiant heat and still give the penpoint tip without the knobs getting hot. My husband is a welder/millwright by trade. He has been a huge help. He suggested that maybe there is a bigger build up of carbon down past the tips. He thought to soak the torch in water then blow it out to remove any carbon. That is what he does with his welding tips and torch. I'm unsure about doing that with this style of torch. I do have a lynx. Which I do love, so smooth, but I like the radiant heat. Maybe I need to relearn to use the flame different.

I'm going to call Carlisle this morning and talk with them then back to studio tonight after work.
Thank you for your suggestions.
Kathy
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbinkster View Post
Kathy, hot knobs aside, are you happy with how your set-up treats your glass? If so, then maybe you could build a little water cooling system kind of like G.L McBead described back in post #8 of this thread.

How big are the yellow/white tips at the end of your candles? Are they the same as or larger than what you remember from when you ran tanked oxygen? Are you able to keep the candles long, but shorten the yellow/white tips?
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Old 2008-07-17, 8:55am
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By the way you are describing the tips of the candles, it sounds like yoiu might be having a problem with your concentrator getting enough to the torch. If that is the case, replacing your torch might help, since it does take more oxygen to run than other bead-range torches. But, then again, it depends on what your concentrator is doing. I have a Mini CC and other torches here with a few different concentrators. I can hook them up and take pictures of the candles at certain settings. Carlisle recommend 5 psi and says that 7 LPM is all that's needed for "standard usage" (that 3/8" neutral flame).

Well, as for watercooling, I would not do the drip thing, but the copper tubing wrapped around the torch is the part I would do. I would then attach some flexible tubing to each end of the copper tubing and run both ends into a bucket of water. At one end, I would attach a submersible aquarium pump. That way, you would be circulating the water in the bucket. There are several boro guys that use this type of set-up to cool their bigger torches. You can also freeze some water inplastic bottles and put them in the bucket to keep the water nice and cold (I do this for my ring saw).
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Old 2008-07-17, 9:30am
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I would love pictures of what the Carlisle Mini flame/candles should look like! I've only had a problem with hot knobs a few times with mine, but don't really feel like I know what I'm doing flame/candle-wise!

Thanks!
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Old 2008-07-17, 9:32am
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Hi Kim

I have a PSI gauge on the concentrator. the flow knob is set at about 6.5 and I'm getting a PSI reading of 5 without any flucuation in the flame. This is with a holding tank connected to the M-15.
the candles are right at 3/8" if not more. I have a good hissing sound. Not to much not to little.
Pictures would be nice. I would post some also but the computer/camera thing is not working.
thanks
Kathy

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbinkster View Post
By the way you are describing the tips of the candles, it sounds like yoiu might be having a problem with your concentrator getting enough to the torch. If that is the case, replacing your torch might help, since it does take more oxygen to run than other bead-range torches. But, then again, it depends on what your concentrator is doing. I have a Mini CC and other torches here with a few different concentrators. I can hook them up and take pictures of the candles at certain settings. Carlisle recommend 5 psi and says that 7 LPM is all that's needed for "standard usage" (that 3/8" neutral flame).

Well, as for watercooling, I would not do the drip thing, but the copper tubing wrapped around the torch is the part I would do. I would then attach some flexible tubing to each end of the copper tubing and run both ends into a bucket of water. At one end, I would attach a submersible aquarium pump. That way, you would be circulating the water in the bucket. There are several boro guys that use this type of set-up to cool their bigger torches. You can also freeze some water inplastic bottles and put them in the bucket to keep the water nice and cold (I do this for my ring saw).
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  #25  
Old 2008-08-02, 7:36am
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Hmm...glad I saw this. I've had a similar problem with my National. Thanks!
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Old 2008-08-11, 7:32pm
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I, too, have a Mini CC with hot knobs and am glad to know that maybe more oxygen/larger flame will reduce the heat in those knobs. I run mine on 2 "New Life" concentratorws which I bought already used and look like they should deliver max 5 LPM--one can do 4, the other never gets above 2-2.5, and it doesn't seem like the combination is enough because the flame fluctuates. For one thing, I learned at the Gathering that I should locate them away farther away from each other so they don't influence the air flowing to each of them. I am considering buying an EX+0 15 (by extremeoxygenproducts.com) which seems like a good price -- but I don't want to buy another piece of equipment that isn't going to be exactly what I need. Anyone have experience with the EX-15 running a Mini CC? (currently just 104, future potentially boro)
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Old 2008-08-12, 6:37am
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Well it would be nice if their website was done. why do people bother putting out their address when they aren't ready for traffic?
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