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Tips, Techniques, and Questions -- Technical questions or tips

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  #31  
Old 2013-03-11, 9:09am
Dr Bill Dr Bill is offline
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bye

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  #32  
Old 2013-03-11, 11:13am
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Your fins slumped because they were so close to the elements. The elements in any kiln fire to raise the temperature in the kiln to stay within a certain parameter of degrees controlled by your thermostat. The elements themselves, when fired up, are hotter than the temperature you have with your thermostat. If you put thin little pieces of glass too close to the elements they will easily slump.

I have an old radiant coil waffle iron that I was trying to use to preheat big rods and boy did that thing ever get hot. Too hot. It would slump the rods even though the elements were much thinner than kiln elements.

Made excellent waffles though.

Under normal conditions, your Glass Hive kiln won't do that to your soft glass turtle flippers if it is programmed for soft glass temperatures.
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  #33  
Old 2013-03-14, 5:45am
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Thumbs up mini annealer

I have been using the mini annealer for 3 months now without one problem. They pass the throwing test, etc. I really like it!
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  #34  
Old 2013-03-14, 6:33am
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Honestly, if the crappy quality of the imports isn't doing enough harm to the industry, do you really want to match that crap quality by not annealing correctly?

Some of y'all are making me sad. "Throwing test" It's glass for god's sake.
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  #35  
Old 2013-03-14, 7:15am
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Come on Tom..the thread was started cause I needed help not criticism. Lets play nice I'm the sand box please

Becky
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  #36  
Old 2013-03-14, 7:25am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by menty666 View Post
Honestly, if the crappy quality of the imports isn't doing enough harm to the industry, do you really want to match that crap quality by not annealing correctly?

Some of y'all are making me sad. "Throwing test" It's glass for god's sake.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeckyNoe View Post
Come on Tom..the thread was started cause I needed help not criticism. Lets play nice I'm the sand box please

Becky
But there IS NO SUCH THING as the throwing test, that's the point, devardi have made that one up, even annealed beads will break if you throw them on the floor

In order to be annealed glass needs to be held at a very specific temperature and cooled at a very specific rate - that little open box cannot possibly do that.

Tom, I feel your frustration ...sigh
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  #37  
Old 2013-03-14, 7:48am
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Exactly. Not to mention when you drop glass, you impart stress into it. So even if you *had* annealed them, you'd be wise to anneal them a second time after you threw your handcrafted artwork at a table.

I'm not knocking you, Becky; you're new and learning. But I am a bit irked with some of the other folks in this thread who've said that could work as an annealer and have been at this long enough to know better.

Maybe they're just secretly hoping you destroy your own market by selling low quality garbage so they can pick up the sales.
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  #38  
Old 2013-03-14, 8:07am
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That annealer is just a re-purposed curling iron heater from the beauty industry... Like many things re-purposed it does a so-so job within certain parameters.... It is not a true kiln for annealing.... Why do you think a real kiln state about $600-$700 and goes up from there... A $150 re-purposed curling iron heater is not going to do what you expect, it will not be accurate no matter what dealer tells you and temperatures will not be stable...... IN your zeal as a beginner and attempt to do the right thing and in the end you got taken.... Unfortunately its the fault of the sell and not yours.....

There is no drop test... IF you try try to use one it is a precursor to the "Humpty Dumpty" effect....

All annealing kilns run either hotter or colder than displayed on pyrometer, and you need to do slump test with glass rods to gauge how much controller is off from displayed heat of pyrometer....

Dale
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  #39  
Old 2013-03-14, 10:00am
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Annealing does not remove cracks, btw. So, re-annealing after the throwing test isn't going to help. If there are cracks in there before, there will be cracks in there afterwards.

What annealing does is allow the mass to all cool uniformly so that there is not any stress formed by one part cooling (and contracting) than another part. Something that has wild spikes in temperature, and where the general atmosphere is not pretty constant, is not going to work well as an annealer. In a real annealer, the element is going to turn on and off to keep the temperature constant, sure, but, the overall temperature (not up next to the element) is going to be pretty steady (maybe fluctuate by a couple degrees).

It's a shame that a company that sells knock-offs and extra-cheap items can put out such misinformation (the throw test, for example). I guess their client base generally doesn't know better and the ones who do don't care, they're just there to buy cheap stuff.
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  #40  
Old 2013-03-14, 10:08am
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Perfectly annealed glass will break if you drop it on the floor. If you drop it and it DOESN'T break, you were just lucky. If you drop it on the floor and it DOES break, then you have to clean up broken glass. It's still glass; stress it beyond its capacity and it breaks. This goes for both soft glass and boro.

Back when I first started working with glass, I was showing a friend some boro things I'd done. "Look!" I said, "you can drop it on the floor and it won't break!" So I dropped it on the floor and it broke. Cured me of that particular idea pretty quickly. Learn from my mistakes!

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  #41  
Old 2013-03-14, 10:13am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeckyNoe View Post
Come on Tom..the thread was started cause I needed help not criticism. Lets play nice I'm the sand box please

Becky
It's important that the correct information is out there for everyone reading this. It's not criticism.
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  #42  
Old 2013-03-14, 4:10pm
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All i asked for was help getting my little fins unstuck off the bottom Regardless of anything else..THAT was the matter at hand.

I received great info on how to do that..it worked..I'm tickled pink that my first turtle that will never go anywhere but my house is in one piece and not cracked or doesn't have broken fins.

I am not, for the record, a complete idiot LOL I know the DG annealer is not a real annealer..and i also know that at the time it was given to me as a GIFT for Christmas from a person that doesn't do crafts, let alone glass, that I would be able use it for a rod warmer, or garage at some point when i got the money for the big kiln.

Everything has a purpose, even if it isn't what it was originally intended for or touted to be for.

How many of you have jerry-rigged tools for your glass that were never intended for glass?

Same thing...here..so how bout we just let this thread go away because it's no longer important as Ralph, as one of the nice people on this forum named him, had his fins safely removed from bottom and is happily sitting here on my desk reminding me that there are all kind of lessons to be learned in life, and it's only glass..you don't like it..don't buy it..you don't like a product..don't buy it.

We have the same mentality with our dogs when on the rare occasion we have a litter..you don't like my contract..go to someone else.

Becky
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  #43  
Old 2013-03-14, 6:45pm
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sorry Tom, but unfortunately, I am unable to afford a kiln. So, I have to make due with what I can. I am also not selling my beads. But, such harsh words from someone who obviously is farther along than some of us.
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  #44  
Old 2013-03-14, 7:03pm
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Juju..i deal what that mentality in the dog show world ALL the time...leave it alone and they eventually go away

Becky
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  #45  
Old 2013-03-14, 7:11pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AKDesigns View Post
It's important that the correct information is out there for everyone reading this. It's not criticism.
I think Amy said it best.
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  #46  
Old 2013-03-14, 7:29pm
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This thread will still be here in five years, being read by folks who may be considering buying this item ~ that's why it's important to get the correct info out there.

When I was first starting to do flamework, I waited a year before I could afford a kiln. I remember how frustrating it was! I don't think anybody is being nasty or negative, they are simply trying to protect newer lampworkers from being misled by a vendor who apparently doesn't understand how annealing really works.

Calling this tool a mini annealer is very misleading. Please don't be fooled.


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  #47  
Old 2013-03-14, 7:32pm
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I'm sorry if you guys feel put upon. It's been a long journey for many of us, and sometimes we get irritated with misinformation that continues to re-surface on a regular basis. You don't need a kiln to make beads, but any un annealed or poorly annealed bead will crack eventually, so even if you are keeping them for your own use you should be aware of this.

I think it was Pam (very experienced beadmaker) who kept a bunch of unannealed beads in a jar. She would check them periodically and after 10 years or so, almost all of them had cracked.

For those who don't have kilns, there may be someone near you who would be willing to batch anneal for you
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  #48  
Old 2013-03-14, 7:33pm
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The throwing test? I can't even.
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  #49  
Old 2013-03-14, 7:39pm
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The throwing test? I can't even.
Aww, come on! Yes you can!
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  #50  
Old 2013-03-14, 7:44pm
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it's all in the attitude..i said VERY early on...this is not about a product or a bashing session..it's a QUESTION that needed an answer.

Education is all great and dandy..but when it's obnoxious hopefully it will not turn them away...I mean seriously..who says this crap?

"Maybe they're just secretly hoping you destroy your own market by selling low quality garbage so they can pick up the sales"

<------shaking her head

that's going to make new people like me just want to jump out and ask all kinds of questions so that I can be criticized because i just wanted to know how to get the damn fins unstuck..

I didn't ask for anyone's opinion on the DG annealer, nor what it does or does not do..other then how to get the friggin fins unstuck.

I'm very disappointed in some of the comments here. I have mentored people in the Australian Shepherd breed, and in Dog shows for almost 10 years now and i have NEVER and would NEVER make any of the comments that was made here.

I have, however seen others make similar type comments to new dog show people and i have watched those new people walk out of the show and never be seen again.

I'm sorry..i started glass be cause it was beautiful and challenging and to get away from crap like this...

Have fun on this thread..this will be the last post i make on it. My question was answered. Ralph is safe.

All that is important to me.
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  #51  
Old 2013-03-14, 8:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frit Diva View Post
This thread will still be here in five years, being read by folks who may be considering buying this item ~ that's why it's important to get the correct info out there.

When I was first starting to do flamework, I waited a year before I could afford a kiln. I remember how frustrating it was! I don't think anybody is being nasty or negative, they are simply trying to protect newer lampworkers from being misled by a vendor who apparently doesn't understand how annealing really works.

Calling this tool a mini annealer is very misleading. Please don't be fooled.


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Yes, all of this.
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  #52  
Old 2013-03-14, 8:48pm
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Originally Posted by menty666 View Post
I'm not knocking you, Becky; you're new and learning. But I am a bit irked with some of the other folks in this thread who've said that could work as an annealer and have been at this long enough to know better.

Maybe they're just secretly hoping you destroy your own market by selling low quality garbage so they can pick up the sales.
I sure hope your nasty comment isn't referring to me! You need to think before you type accusatory shit like this. I find the second paragraph above highly offensive and I am doing all I can to keep from cussing you out. If you were not directing your comments at me, then I apologize. But next time, if you are going to write stuff like this, you really need to name who you are referring to.

The Devardi annealer: Becky might be new, but she's not stupid. She knows this is not the proper annealer to use if she wants to sell her work in the future. It's obvious that for right now she would like to make something larger than a pea and not have it break before she gets it off the mandrel.
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  #53  
Old 2013-03-14, 8:51pm
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Becky, none of these comments are being directed at you. Your question may have been about getting the fins off the bottom of the kiln, but people responded to the root cause of the problem, which is that the product used to anneal your turtle, is unreliable and not terribly-well equiped to do the job it purports to do.

It was a natural progression, given the history of poor experiences people have had.

No one wanted to hijack or re-direct this, I'm sure. Believe me, your comment and disappointment has been noted by many over time on here and the root is often the same supplier.

You will find that the help and encouragement you will find here is incomparable in its scope and nature and you will be amazed at the willingness of people to share.

The comments are to inform. I'm sure we're all happy the turtle survived and I hope your (reliable and efficient) new kiln arrives quickly for you.
Beth
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  #54  
Old 2013-03-14, 9:01pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wimsey View Post
Becky, none of these comments are being directed at you. Your question may have been about getting the fins off the bottom of the kiln, but people responded to the root cause of the problem, which is that the product used to anneal your turtle, is unreliable and not terribly-well equiped to do the job it purports to do.

It was a natural progression, given the history of poor experiences people have had.

No one wanted to hijack or re-direct this, I'm sure. Believe me, your comment and disappointment has been noted by many over time on here and the root is often the same supplier.

You will find that the help and encouragement you will find here is incomparable in its scope and nature and you will be amazed at the willingness of people to share.

The comments are to inform. I'm sure we're all happy the turtle survived and I hope your (reliable and efficient) new kiln arrives quickly for you.
Beth
Excellent.
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  #55  
Old 2013-03-14, 9:04pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wimsey View Post
Becky, none of these comments are being directed at you. Your question may have been about getting the fins off the bottom of the kiln, but people responded to the root cause of the problem, which is that the product used to anneal your turtle, is unreliable and not terribly-well equiped to do the job it purports to do.

It was a natural progression, given the history of poor experiences people have had.

No one wanted to hijack or re-direct this, I'm sure. Believe me, your comment and disappointment has been noted by many over time on here and the root is often the same supplier.

You will find that the help and encouragement you will find here is incomparable in its scope and nature and you will be amazed at the willingness of people to share.

The comments are to inform. I'm sure we're all happy the turtle survived and I hope your (reliable and efficient) new kiln arrives quickly for you.
Beth
^^ This
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  #56  
Old 2013-03-14, 9:39pm
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Since you asked...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisi View Post

As far as the Devardi annealer goes, there is no reason why it wouldn't work to anneal a few beads as long as the temperature can be properly monitored. I assume you would have to babysit it. Very closely. You will have much less to worry about when you get your Glasshive kiln.
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  #57  
Old 2013-03-14, 10:50pm
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Originally Posted by menty666 View Post
Since you asked...
I know what the hell I wrote, and since I do know my WTF I'm talking about, I might as well explain it. I do believe I have sufficient knowledge in many types of kilns aka ceramics, copper enameling, glass fusing and annealing equipment:

As far as that's concerned, then maybe a homemade mailbox annealer with an digital pyrometer is not accurate either?? If the temperature reads correctly with the PROPER temperature monitoring probe AND it is ramped down PROPERLY, then it is annealed! It doesn't matter how small the chamber is inside, as long as the few beads you can get in there do not touch the walls!

I know this shit because my father was an artist for a LIVING, a real professional. He worked with copper enameling and ceramics for more than 40 years. Yes, he built his own kilns, for himself and his students. At least a dozen of them that I know of! Some little bitty tiny testers too!

I'm not saying the Devardi piece of equipment is a properly working annealer, because I really don't know. I haven't used one. But a very small sized annealer can work as long as the temps can be controlled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by menty666 View Post
Maybe they're just secretly hoping you destroy your own market by selling low quality garbage so they can pick up the sales.
So, have you no further explanation for this, since I "asked", hmmm?? Tell me again how I'm trying to get someone else (newbies) to turn out low quality garbage. I hate to say it, but Becky is finding out just how unpleasant it is with certain people in this forum. I hope she ignores it and stays anyway.
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  #58  
Old 2013-03-14, 10:57pm
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That Devardi mini annealer doesn't have a door, right? It's just open in the front. If that really is the case there is no way the temp can remain constant enough and accurate to actually anneal.
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Old 2013-03-14, 11:08pm
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Originally Posted by AKDesigns View Post
That Devardi mini annealer doesn't have a door, right? It's just open in the front. If that really is the case there is no way the temp can remain constant enough and accurate to actually anneal.
That's true. Now I'm curious, I need to go on the site and look at this thing again. I could swear it had a little door or a "window". Maybe not? I think they mentioned that you could use a piece of fiber blanket to block the door.
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Old 2013-03-15, 1:36am
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Lyssa Lyssa is offline
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Join Date: Dec 11, 2007
Location: Los Osos, San Luis Obispo County, California
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Originally Posted by Lisi View Post
That's true. Now I'm curious, I need to go on the site and look at this thing again. I could swear it had a little door or a "window". Maybe not? I think they mentioned that you could use a piece of fiber blanket to block the door.
For future generations of lampworkers, here is my story with the Devardi mini annealer, especially in reference to covering the front opening of the Devardi mini annealer.

When I tried out the Devardi mini annealer, I built a structure of firebrick all the way around it, stuck a digital pyrometer in it, covered the front with a piece of firebrick, and annealed several sets of about twenty four beads each (I had MONTHS of beads I'd made that needed annealing), making sure to mix in a bunch of transparents all around inside with each batch so I could look at the sampling of transparents in a polariscope to make sure they were annealed. They were. But I had to sit there watching the digital pyrometer and making adjustments to the temp knob for six hours following a precise, scientifically determined annealing schedule as can be found in [Scott] Bandhu Dunham's books.

The ONLY thing REALLY wrong with the Devardi mini annealer is that Devardi mis-represents it. You HAVE to do everything I did in order to ensure properly annealed beads. If you don't at least look at your transparents in a plariscope, you will never know if it worked, and why go to all that trouble if you won't verify the work was effective? If you are willing to do everything I did every time you want to batch anneal your beads, you can save yourself a hell of a lot of money.

Please note the instructions that I received with the Devardi mini annealer specifically stated that you should NOT cover the opening. I was never one for following directions, even if I did read them multiple times.

After all my test runs I returned it and bought a Short Guy. I love my Glass Hive kiln. I would marry it if it weren't illegal in my state. I named him Harry.
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