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Tips, Techniques, and Questions -- Technical questions or tips

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  #61  
Old 2013-03-15, 3:20am
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Simply put, annealing glass is the process of raising the temperature of the glass to a point where the viscosity reduces enough to allow the glass to move and relieve any stress in the glass, and holding at that temperature until the stress is relieved. The next step is COOLING the glass in a manner that does not introduce any new stress into the glass. This is usually accomplished by cooling the glass slowly down past the lower stress point, the temperature at which any stress introduced into the glass is not permanent. And finally cooling the glass to room temperature at a rate that will not cause breakage.

One does not need high tech equipment to accomplish this, one does need to heat the glass to a sufficient temperature, hold it there, and cool the glass slowly. The ancients accomplished this in wood and coal fired ovens, we do it with digital controlled electric ovens. Will the Devardi device anneal beads, yes if you understand what need to happen and when. Is it a reliable and repeatable process, not really, one would need to error on the side of caution and as Lyssa stated, it was possible but a serious pain.

Contemporary Lampworking does an excellent job in explaining the annealing process AND the supporting mathematics. Once you grasp what is happening to the glass the physics and math become a guide to finding an annealing schedule that works for you. There is no magic.

I've tried to stay our of this discussion, but the Engineer/Scientist in me needed to state the facts. I have no intention of offending anyone, I am just stating the facts as I understand them.
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  #62  
Old 2013-03-15, 3:20am
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Double Post
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  #63  
Old 2013-03-15, 6:47am
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I'm not getting the correlation between Devardi and dog breeders, barring the fact that there's disreputable people in both factions. Not a fan of either, really...but that's neither here nor there...
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  #64  
Old 2013-03-15, 7:31am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeckyNoe View Post
it's all in the attitude..i said VERY early on...this is not about a product or a bashing session..it's a QUESTION that needed an answer.

Education is all great and dandy..but when it's obnoxious hopefully it will not turn them away...I mean seriously..who says this crap?

"Maybe they're just secretly hoping you destroy your own market by selling low quality garbage so they can pick up the sales"

<------shaking her head

that's going to make new people like me just want to jump out and ask all kinds of questions so that I can be criticized because i just wanted to know how to get the damn fins unstuck..

I didn't ask for anyone's opinion on the DG annealer, nor what it does or does not do..other then how to get the friggin fins unstuck.

I'm very disappointed in some of the comments here. I have mentored people in the Australian Shepherd breed, and in Dog shows for almost 10 years now and i have NEVER and would NEVER make any of the comments that was made here.

I have, however seen others make similar type comments to new dog show people and i have watched those new people walk out of the show and never be seen again.

I'm sorry..i started glass be cause it was beautiful and challenging and to get away from crap like this...

Have fun on this thread..this will be the last post i make on it. My question was answered. Ralph is safe.

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You can not win this one..... From past experiences all you are doing is making yourself look like a whiner and poor sport.... Let it go.... It will eventually die on its own time..... But in archive it live on forever no matter how you feel about it.....

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  #65  
Old 2013-03-15, 10:01am
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The drop test reminds me of that part in Napoleon Dynamite when Kip puts the plastic container under the van tire and backs up over it.
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  #66  
Old 2013-03-15, 11:56am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrissij View Post
I'm not getting the correlation between Devardi and dog breeders, barring the fact that there's disreputable people in both factions. Not a fan of either, really...but that's neither here nor there...
Glad I am not the only one confused by that post! They both start with the letter "D" ?
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  #67  
Old 2013-03-15, 1:26pm
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Originally Posted by AKDesigns View Post
It's important that the correct information is out there for everyone reading this. It's not criticism.
This.

It may not be helpful input for the OP, but this forum is a go-to source of information for people researching lampworking, and this thread will always be findable through the search function. It may be read by dozens or hundreds of other newcomers. For their benefit it's important to state accurate facts so that other readers don't come away from it believing that the "throw test" is a real test of annealing, or that the mini-annealer will properly anneal their beads so as to be suitable for selling.

At the very least, having the accurate information available in a thread that will most likely come up if anyone searches "Devardi mini-annealer" could save a newcomer $150 and the heartbreak of some broken beads. Alternately, they might decide to buy one because it will help reduce their loss rate as they practice, and will serve as a rod warmer later on when they get a real kiln.

Either way, they will have accurate information to make their decision with, and I feel passionately that newcomers to lampworking deserve to have access to the best and most accurate information possible.
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  #68  
Old 2013-03-15, 1:29pm
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As the OP said,

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeckyNoe View Post
Everything has a purpose, even if it isn't what it was originally intended for or touted to be for.
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  #69  
Old 2013-03-15, 1:37pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisi View Post
That's true. Now I'm curious, I need to go on the site and look at this thing again. I could swear it had a little door or a "window". Maybe not? I think they mentioned that you could use a piece of fiber blanket to block the door.
It doesn't have a door or a window or a pyrometer. It's open on both ends and a rheostat knob turns the temperature up or down.

You're correct when you say that if the temperature could be monitored and kept constant, there's no reason it couldn't be used to anneal something properly. The problem is, none of those conditions are met on the product as it is sold.
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  #70  
Old 2013-03-16, 4:29am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonharper View Post
Simply put, annealing glass is the process of raising the temperature of the glass to a point where the viscosity reduces enough to allow the glass to move and relieve any stress in the glass, and holding at that temperature until the stress is relieved. The next step is COOLING the glass in a manner that does not introduce any new stress into the glass. This is usually accomplished by cooling the glass slowly down past the lower stress point, the temperature at which any stress introduced into the glass is not permanent. And finally cooling the glass to room temperature at a rate that will not cause breakage.

One does not need high tech equipment to accomplish this, one does need to heat the glass to a sufficient temperature, hold it there, and cool the glass slowly. The ancients accomplished this in wood and coal fired ovens, we do it with digital controlled electric ovens. Will the Devardi device anneal beads, yes if you understand what need to happen and when. Is it a reliable and repeatable process, not really, one would need to error on the side of caution and as Lyssa stated, it was possible but a serious pain.

Contemporary Lampworking does an excellent job in explaining the annealing process AND the supporting mathematics. Once you grasp what is happening to the glass the physics and math become a guide to finding an annealing schedule that works for you. There is no magic.

I've tried to stay our of this discussion, but the Engineer/Scientist in me needed to state the facts. I have no intention of offending anyone, I am just stating the facts as I understand them.
Thank you!! This is what I was trying to explain! Science is science. Period.
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  #71  
Old 2013-03-16, 4:31am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrissij View Post
I'm not getting the correlation between Devardi and dog breeders, barring the fact that there's disreputable people in both factions. Not a fan of either, really...but that's neither here nor there...
You don't understand because you didn't really read Becky's post thoroughly. It's not a matter of reading between the lines either. It's right there.
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  #72  
Old 2013-03-16, 10:02pm
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I'm curious about the history behind annealing glass as electric kilns with digital pyrometers are recent inventions.



This piece of glass is from the 1st to 5th century A.D. Did the manufacturer understand annealing other than if he cooled the glass too slowly it would shatter?

I'm genuinely want to know. There are glass pieces hundreds and thousands of years old. Were they properly annealed as the term is now known?
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  #73  
Old 2013-03-16, 10:32pm
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Read about an interesting experiment in annealing glass the "old fashioned" way, done by a lampworker with an historical bent. They found that the ashes from the firepit or oven affected the bead, and that the newly made bead resembles old beads from the start. Not clear or really bright but kind of ashy/eroded. Like that picture. There would have to have been some process developed to allow the transparent glasses and bright colors to be used that the Romans and maybe Egyptians did? But, apparently some old glass beads looked old from the start.
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  #74  
Old 2013-03-17, 1:45am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eileenh28 View Post
I'm curious about the history behind annealing glass as electric kilns with digital pyrometers are recent inventions.



This piece of glass is from the 1st to 5th century A.D. Did the manufacturer understand annealing other than if he cooled the glass too slowly it would shatter?

I'm genuinely want to know. There are glass pieces hundreds and thousands of years old. Were they properly annealed as the term is now known?
Great question and beautiful vase, but did you mean, "if he cooled the glass too quickly it would shatter"? I wonder of Dunham addresses it in his books. Anyone know?
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  #75  
Old 2013-03-17, 3:50am
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Scott did not address the historical aspect in his books. A good place to start would be the CMoG Rakow library.
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  #76  
Old 2013-03-17, 1:11pm
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This isn't the exact video I was looking for, but it's close enough. There was one with a gentleman that had a furnace similar to this and off to the side, using the radiant heat from the furnace pots was a small annealing area where he'd put finished work. The earthen materials used to construct the whole thing gave enough insulation to provide a kiln like enclosure that would hold the temperature close enough.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvxBjgxOW7c

edit: I think this is the one I was looking for: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajoGFeuru0o
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  #77  
Old 2013-03-17, 1:51pm
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Originally Posted by wimsey View Post
Becky, none of these comments are being directed at you. Your question may have been about getting the fins off the bottom of the kiln, but people responded to the root cause of the problem, which is that the product used to anneal your turtle, is unreliable and not terribly-well equiped to do the job it purports to do.

It was a natural progression, given the history of poor experiences people have had.

No one wanted to hijack or re-direct this, I'm sure. Believe me, your comment and disappointment has been noted by many over time on here and the root is often the same supplier.

You will find that the help and encouragement you will find here is incomparable in its scope and nature and you will be amazed at the willingness of people to share.

The comments are to inform. I'm sure we're all happy the turtle survived and I hope your (reliable and efficient) new kiln arrives quickly for you.
Beth
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  #78  
Old 2013-03-17, 1:51pm
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Originally Posted by AKDesigns View Post
It's important that the correct information is out there for everyone reading this. It's not criticism.
This
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  #79  
Old 2013-03-17, 1:54pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisi View Post
I know what the hell I wrote, and since I do know my WTF I'm talking about, I might as well explain it. I do believe I have sufficient knowledge in many types of kilns aka ceramics, copper enameling, glass fusing and annealing equipment:

As far as that's concerned, then maybe a homemade mailbox annealer with an digital pyrometer is not accurate either?? If the temperature reads correctly with the PROPER temperature monitoring probe AND it is ramped down PROPERLY, then it is annealed! It doesn't matter how small the chamber is inside, as long as the few beads you can get in there do not touch the walls!

I know this shit because my father was an artist for a LIVING, a real professional. He worked with copper enameling and ceramics for more than 40 years. Yes, he built his own kilns, for himself and his students. At least a dozen of them that I know of! Some little bitty tiny testers too!

I'm not saying the Devardi piece of equipment is a properly working annealer, because I really don't know. I haven't used one. But a very small sized annealer can work as long as the temps can be controlled.



So, have you no further explanation for this, since I "asked", hmmm?? Tell me again how I'm trying to get someone else (newbies) to turn out low quality garbage. I hate to say it, but Becky is finding out just how unpleasant it is with certain people in this forum. I hope she ignores it and stays anyway.
I love this answer. Just have to say it.
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  #80  
Old 2013-03-17, 1:56pm
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Wood fired kilns
Roman mold formed bottles
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMNIEfo6vZY
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  #81  
Old 2013-03-17, 2:15pm
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viking bead making kiln.wmv
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  #82  
Old 2013-03-17, 2:42pm
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Cool Aimee and with that I found...
http://www.darkcompany.ca/beads/beads.php?submenu=B
Scroll towards the bottom for beads
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  #83  
Old 2013-03-18, 10:47am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyssa View Post
Great question and beautiful vase, but did you mean, "if he cooled the glass too quickly it would shatter"? I wonder of Dunham addresses it in his books. Anyone know?
D'oh! I messed up, you have it right! Thank you!

And thanks for the resources. I have some researching to do. I am so interested in the history of glass and the annealing process seems to be something overlooked. Maybe because it would only be interesting to a person who worked with glass.
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  #84  
Old 2019-04-23, 11:03am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by houptdavid View Post
Really, Seriously?

[/color]
New here. New to Boro and lampwork No classes. No instruction other than YouTube videos. Never even made a piece Iím happy with yet. They crack or just look crappy.
All my gear so far is Divardi gear. Torch melts divardi Boro but Iím just a baboon with a new toy so far.
Iíve never had glass bubble or shock , torch melts glass , Iím just totally unaware of what Iím doing. And in sure the only reason my stuff cracks is I donít have a garage or cooling blankets.. I just stick them in a crappy little fusing kiln...that I have to heat and stop manually with no thermal reading.
I guess my question is what is wrong with divardi ? They seem to be a sore spot here....
Again , just a question ?
Thanks for input.
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  #85  
Old 2019-04-24, 2:52am
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Iím just totally unaware of what Iím doing.
Thanks for input.
Your first goal should be to change exactly that.
Sorry to say it the straight way.

Elke
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  #86  
Old 2019-04-24, 8:07am
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In many peoples' opinion (mine included) Devardi sells second rate products, with inflated claims regarding some of it, and outright misinformation on some of it.

Other people love it and disagree heartily. Your best bet, in order to form your own opinion and avoid the drama of the disagreements, is to either forge ahead in blissful ignorance and see if you can make it work, or buy other product and learn the difference.

There are informed opinions, uninformed opinions, and bandwagoneers on both sides of the argument.
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  #87  
Old 2019-05-01, 7:49pm
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Don't even get me started. That whole page is laughable.
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  #88  
Old 2019-05-18, 10:03am
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I just threw away ALL of my remaining Devardi glass (@8 lbs) because I was tired of growling at it every time I sat at my bench. That was more liberating than a bra-burning!!! (Showing my age. LOL)
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