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  #31  
Old 2012-06-15, 3:13pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Role View Post
Alloys contain other metals.

Pure Tungsten does not melt until 6000 degrees.
please post a link to pure tungsten mandrels.

I have purchased what I was told was pure tungsten for my worn out picks in different sizes, and they all burn easy when I pulled points off the end.
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  #32  
Old 2012-06-15, 3:15pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dasi View Post
please post a link to pure tungsten mandrels.

I have purchased what I was told was pure tungsten for my worn out picks in different sizes, and they all burn easy when I pulled points off the end.
I'm sorry but I do not know of any.

If it burned easily it is not pure tungsten.
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  #33  
Old 2012-06-15, 3:20pm
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These are what are used for tungsten picks, and presumably also for mandrels. (in varying diameters)

http://weldingdirect.com/10pac332purt.html

Apparently in welding parlance, 'pure' means something else?
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  #34  
Old 2012-06-15, 3:33pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunyip View Post
These are what are used for tungsten picks, and presumably also for mandrels. (in varying diameters)

http://weldingdirect.com/10pac332purt.html

Apparently in welding parlance, 'pure' means something else?
I have no idea...

I tried to find the ASTM spec for that type of welding rod but I couldn't
find anything that related to purity.

After my acquaintance told me about the thorium oxide I will not be using
any tungsten. (He is a nuclear material scientist and after retiring his
business is alloying high purity metals and cast polymers so I trust him
implicitly).
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  #35  
Old 2012-06-15, 6:11pm
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Quote from my acquaintance:

"it IS used in heliarc Welding, usually 2% ThO2. Some can be 4%. Not only
is the Thoriated Tungsten better for those really high temperatures, but the
alpha particles help the arc ionize a little easier."

"There is a 540KeV Gamma associated with the alpha decay of Th232."

This is very, very, bad news for inhaling vaporized tungsten welding rods.
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  #36  
Old 2012-06-16, 5:03am
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I am sorry if I seemed insulting but I was sincerely worried about the toxicity.
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  #37  
Old 2012-06-16, 7:02am
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Well given that thoriated, ceriated and lanthanated tungsten are listed alongside pure, I think we can draw certain conclusions. Firstly, that "pure" means "pure".

Another conclusion is that "melting point" means something very specific: The temperature above which or where a solid becomes a liquid. (That is, in fact, one of the scientific definitions of melting point)

Empirical Evidence, in the form of Loren Stump manipulating pure tungsten in a flame lower than the "melting point" of tungsten suggests that something else is going on here. (I know this is anecdotal but we're not in court)

Hypothesis: Tungsten does not be in the liquid phase to be worked, and can, in fact, be heated and worked at a lower temperature than the "melting point", exhibiting the qualities of malleablility, fusiblity, and ductility, as does iron and other metals (see "blacksmithing"", etc).

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  #38  
Old 2012-06-16, 8:02am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Role View Post
There is a new twist on this you all may want to pay attention to.

My material scientist acquaintance, who is literally a brainiac super genius,
says that tungsten alloys are strengthened with THORIUM OXIDE...

BAD, BAD, BAD...

REALLY...

BAD...

Thorium oxide is a radioactive material.

If it is being vaporized and inhaled trouble is sure to follow.

He says that pure tungsten can only be vaporized with an O2/Propane
torch if it is a very fine wire.

If you are using a tungsten alloy and it is vaporizing I would STRONGLY
suggest either stopping or using a supplied fresh air system.
$500.00 for a supplied air system is nothing if you value your life.
Thank you for the information. I have asthma and sensitive lungs anyway so I'll just give the tungsten a miss completely since there is a *possibility* of trouble with user error.

I think I'll start out on my 3/16 mandrels and work my way down gradually.
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  #39  
Old 2012-06-16, 1:25pm
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Astrid ... I use 1/16" mandrels regularly. It takes a little practice but the key point is to watch the glow of the mandrel and never let it get to that really hot color. Work above or below the flame. It the mandrel starts to glow too much ... pull it out and let it cool and then rewarm the bead with the mandrel out of the flame.

Just don't get too engrossed in watching the glass shimmer and do it's thing and burn through anyways ... that's how I usually lose a mandrel these days!!
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  #40  
Old 2012-06-16, 9:28pm
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If anyone is interested in a supplied air system, I looked around and this guy on eBay
has decent prices.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Supplied-fre...item5882ef55fd

I emailed him and he says the unit draws 1000watts for those that need to figure
power requirements.

He also has several types of masks, full face and hood style.

I have no affiliation, just considering buying the product.
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  #41  
Old 2012-06-17, 2:37pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Role View Post
If anyone is interested in a supplied air system, I looked around and this guy on eBay
has decent prices.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Supplied-fre...item5882ef55fd

I emailed him and he says the unit draws 1000watts for those that need to figure
power requirements.

He also has several types of masks, full face and hood style.

I have no affiliation, just considering buying the product.
Role, I appreciate the information. I actually have a CPAP machine for the shop (being a nurse has it's perks) which basically does the same thing. The cooling aspect of this one is nice though.
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  #42  
Old 2012-06-17, 2:54pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alb6094 View Post
Role, I appreciate the information. I actually have a CPAP machine for the shop (being a nurse has it's perks) which basically does the same thing. The cooling aspect of this one is nice though.
Thanks, Astrid.

Contrary to what was posted by that angry little guy, I was just trying to be helpful.

My first wife had severe asthma and I know how painfully unpleasant it can be.
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  #43  
Old 2012-06-17, 4:23pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Role View Post
Thanks, Astrid.

Contrary to what was posted by that angry little guy, I was just trying to be helpful.

My first wife had severe asthma and I know how painfully unpleasant it can be.
I knew you were. It's nice when peeps got your back.
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  #44  
Old 2012-06-17, 4:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MagpieGlass View Post
Astrid ... I use 1/16" mandrels regularly. It takes a little practice but the key point is to watch the glow of the mandrel and never let it get to that really hot color. Work above or below the flame. It the mandrel starts to glow too much ... pull it out and let it cool and then rewarm the bead with the mandrel out of the flame.

Just don't get too engrossed in watching the glass shimmer and do it's thing and burn through anyways ... that's how I usually lose a mandrel these days!!
Thank you Laura!
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  #45  
Old 2012-06-18, 11:12pm
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After a bit of research I found a MSDS for "pure" tungsten welding rods.

MSDS for "Pure" Tungsten welding rods

Highlights:

Purity is supposed to be 99.5%.
(.5% other metals/oxides)

It IS listed as a health hazard:
"CONTAINS MATERIAL THAT CAN CAUSE TARGET ORGAN DAMAGE"

"This material is considered hazardous by the OSHA Hazard Communication
Standard (29 CFR 1910.1200)."

"Routes of entry: Dermal contact. Eye contact. Inhalation. Ingestion"

"Contains material which causes damage to the following organs: blood,
upper respiratory tract, skin, eye, lens or cornea"

"Repeated or prolonged exposure to the substance can produce target
organs damage."
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  #46  
Old 2012-06-19, 1:25am
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Interesting........

"There are no animal or human toxicological data to support the hypothesis of a nephrotoxic activity of tungsten."

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/la...194-0/fulltext

"Acute tungsten poisoning is an extremely rare presentation."

http://www.patient.co.uk/doctor/Tungsten-Poisoning.htm
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  #47  
Old 2012-06-19, 1:51am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaska View Post
Interesting........

"There are no animal or human toxicological data to support the hypothesis of a nephrotoxic activity of tungsten."

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/la...194-0/fulltext


"Acute tungsten poisoning is an extremely rare presentation."

http://www.patient.co.uk/doctor/Tungsten-Poisoning.htm
These articles relate to ingestion, not inhalation of the vaporized metal.

Tungsten appears to have little or no toxicity via ingestion, like many
metals, so passing through the digestive tract is not an issue.

You can safely ingest copper, iron, silver and gold with no ill effects but
I think we both know that inhaling the fumes is a bad idea.
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  #48  
Old 2012-06-19, 5:13am
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In other words, use with caution, and protect yourself from fumes. Sound advice. Glad we all agree
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  #49  
Old 2012-06-19, 5:49am
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Quote:
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In other words, use with caution, and protect yourself from fumes. Sound advice. Glad we all agree
This!

Thanks!
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  #50  
Old 2012-06-19, 2:33pm
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"Although the inhalation of Tungsten has the potential for causing transient or permanent lung damage, it is generally considered to exhibit a low degree of toxicity."
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  #51  
Old 2012-06-19, 2:47pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaska View Post
"Although the inhalation of Tungsten has the potential for causing transient or permanent lung damage, it is generally considered to exhibit a low degree of toxicity."
It exhibits low toxicity for ingestion and skin contact, your article states
that permanent and transient damage can occur from inhalation.

Bottom line, don't inhale vaporized metals.
(Especially not ones doped with transuranic elements)
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  #52  
Old 2012-06-29, 10:25am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunyip View Post
Well given that thoriated, ceriated and lanthanated tungsten are listed alongside pure, I think we can draw certain conclusions. Firstly, that "pure" means "pure".

Another conclusion is that "melting point" means something very specific: The temperature above which or where a solid becomes a liquid. (That is, in fact, one of the scientific definitions of melting point)

Empirical Evidence, in the form of Loren Stump manipulating pure tungsten in a flame lower than the "melting point" of tungsten suggests that something else is going on here. (I know this is anecdotal but we're not in court)

Hypothesis: Tungsten does not be in the liquid phase to be worked, and can, in fact, be heated and worked at a lower temperature than the "melting point", exhibiting the qualities of malleablility, fusiblity, and ductility, as does iron and other metals (see "blacksmithing"", etc).

Nerds. Gotta Love 'em.
After reading the earlier junk in this thread stating that tungsten can't vaporize in a torch flame because it has a melting point above 6000F (to be precise, 6192F) so any tungsten rod that vaporizes is automatically spewing thorium, not tungsten fumes, I'm glad that at least some people here know what they are talking about.

For starters, as Chris stated above, just because SOME tungsten welding rods are doped with thorium doesn't mean ALL tungsten rods are doped with thorium. Some are pure (99.5%) tungsten. And some are doped with a few percent thorium, zirconium, or other elements. Every package of tungsten welding electrodes I have ever seen was clearly labeled as to what type they were. As someone else already said, they are color coded, with one end of the pure tungsten electrodes colored green. Thoriated tungsten electrodes are color coded red (2%) or pink (4%).

And since I can't think of any acquaintance I have who is "literally" a "brainiac super genius", I guess I'll just have to rely on verifiable facts instead to back up and expand on Chris' excellent hypothesis regarding tungsten fuming. He is absolutely correct that the melting temperature of tungsten is irrelevant as far as vaporization of tungsten in a gas/oxy flame goes. It doesn't matter at what temperature tungsten MELTS, what matters is at what temperature it oxidizes and vaporizes. Melting and vaporizing are two completely different things.

Tungsten can - and DOES - oxidize/vaporize at a much lower temperature than 6000 degrees F. This quote from a tungsten technical datasheet posted on the website of High Temp Metals, a distributor of (you guessed it) high temperature metals and alloys for the aerospace, petrochemical and electronic industries, regarding the reaction of tungsten in air and/or oxygen atmospheres makes it pretty clear:

"oxidation starts from 400 to 500°C (750 to 930°F); at temperature[s] above this rapid oxidation to WO3 and vaporization."

Does obvious vaporization of a tungsten pick in a torch flame automatically mean it MUST be thorium doped? The answer is clearly "no". Tungsten itself will vaporize in a gas/oxy flame, no matter what a "literal" braniac super genius may, or may not, have said.

But thorium or tungsten, I do agree that you don't want to breath the fumes.
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  #53  
Old 2012-06-29, 10:53am
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^^^^^^^^^^^

LOL, someone has a serious problem.

Good luck with that.
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  #54  
Old 2012-06-29, 10:57am
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I have made several tools for glass with those green tiped tungston electrodes and when I was heating one of them to cuve it I melted right through it so yes our torches can melt it.
now that I have made my rakes, I do not have any melting but they are never in the flame for long
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  #55  
Old 2012-06-29, 11:05am
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Quote:
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^^^^^^^^^^^

LOL, someone has a serious problem.

Good luck with that.
Yes, I can see why some people might consider FACTS to be a serious problem...
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  #56  
Old 2012-06-29, 11:09am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glassmaker View Post
Yes, I can see why some people might consider FACTS to be a serious problem...
The FACT is Thorium Oxide is used to strengthen tungsten, "pure"
tungsten still has a small percentage of other materials (listed as
"oxides" in the MSDS).

Inhale all the tungsten fumes you like, no one will stop you.

Have a great day.
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Last edited by Role; 2012-06-29 at 11:19am.
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  #57  
Old 2012-06-29, 4:45pm
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I think that being confrontational is counterproductive. We all want to make sure we're as informed as possible. Seriously, nobody wants to turn their lungs into swiss cheese and I think proper caution is therefore important.
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  #58  
Old 2012-08-18, 8:23am
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I'm one of those people that have always used boro but recently started dabbling in soft glass. I'm not sure torch type makes much difference in that boro just needs to be hotter than soft glass before it will move for you. Meaning your mandrel is always at risk. I use mandrels as small as 1/16 mm without issue. You just have to be very careful how long the mandrel is in direct flame. I think someone else mention holding your mandrel above or below your flame so the glass is in the flame but not the mandrel. This is what I do as well. In short bursts you can put the whole bead in the flame but you have to watch the color of you mandrel really closely. Hot orange okay for a short while. White hot...well its all over within a second if you aren't paying attention lol.
In a way I am glad I am going from boro bead making to soft glass experimentation, other wise I might find boro really annoying to deal with and scary like some people say. Soft glass is like honey on the mandrel with the smallest amount of flame lol.
Also making you own mandrels from welding rods you buy at your local welding shop works just fine and is way cheaper than buying premade from some one. Get 316L Stainless Steel TIG welding rods. They come in lengths of 36" and you can cut them with a cable cutter to whatever lengths you like. Some people polish the burr off the end but I've never needed to. Easy peasy.
Practice make perfect good luck!
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  #59  
Old 2014-08-20, 8:11pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Role View Post
If anyone is interested in a supplied air system, I looked around and this guy on eBay
has decent prices.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Supplied-fre...item5882ef55fd

I emailed him and he says the unit draws 1000watts for those that need to figure
power requirements.

He also has several types of masks, full face and hood style.

I have no affiliation, just considering buying the product.
I would love one of these. Totally scare the crap out of the neighbors...
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