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Safety -- Make sure you are safe!

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  #31  
Old 2012-01-09, 7:06am
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Originally Posted by Lorraine Chandler View Post
Would you please tell me what would be the ideal replacement air situation? We are setting up my new Tuff Shed and I want it to be as clean airwise as possible. Also am I understanding what you said correctly?

So would make up air be best coming from back of bench and over the shoulders from behind?

http://www.artglassanswers.com/forum...keup+air#p2256
best for ventilation.....make up should be behind you
best for not bringing hot moist air or bone chilling air into your studio....make up at the back of the hood.

IMHO.....i want ventilation, and i will heat or cool my studio to compensate bringing the outdoors in.....
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  #32  
Old 2012-01-09, 7:23am
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I bring make up air in through the wall, ducted under my bench and up through the top in front of my torch. There is a blower at the intake hole. This removes the torch plume effectively without sucking all of the conditioned air out of the studio.

Robert
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  #33  
Old 2012-01-09, 7:27am
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I bring make up air in through the wall, ducted under my bench and up through the top in front of my torch. There is a blower at the intake hole. This removes the torch plume effectively without sucking all of the conditioned air out of the studio.

Robert
innovative solution!!!! does the temperature/humidity of your bench area change during the year (hot moist or bone chilling cold)??
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  #34  
Old 2012-01-09, 11:31am
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Default Free Fans

I have long advocated the use of 'surplus' furnace fans for ventilation. In a lot of cases they can be gotten free from HVAC dealers.

Rather than plugging one end of the fan housing simply mount the fan within a 'plenum' and connect the ducting to the plenum. The 'cage' is designed to have a suction side at both ends and while it is unlikely to be damaged by plugging one end/side it will not be nearly as efficient and may be a bit more noisey. Is the 'cage' mounted to its driving motor or is it pulley driven from a seperate motor? I am unclear from the above discussion? If it is a seperate motor then that complicates the plenum design but does not make it impossible. If it is as shown then the motor is cooled by the air comming through the end around the motor annd should not be closed off; the other end does most of the work so should not be closed off either. A plenum is the only answer in this case.

if it is a seperate motor drive thru pulleys then IMHO I would see if the new furnace installer would or could set you up with a free unit similar to this. This particular unit is 3 speed but is about the size you described. IIRC it pushes about 1200 cfm on low speed and is 120 VAc
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  #35  
Old 2012-01-09, 12:20pm
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Robert, what kind of opening do you have on your bench--I should say size, and is it covered with some kind of mesh or something?

PJ, it's the kind with separate motor. So you're saying the whole shebang should be inside the plenum (that's basically a box, right? not familiar with the term, taking in context...)? Here's a pic:

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  #36  
Old 2012-01-09, 12:22pm
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Oops. Lemme try that again.
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  #37  
Old 2012-01-09, 12:24pm
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Second try for pic. Sorry, misunderstood the little upload window.

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  #38  
Old 2012-01-09, 12:28pm
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So in answer, PJ, it's both; it's separate, but is mounted to the exterior of the housing. So if I'm following you, I could attach that rectangle to an opening, construct a box, or plenum, around the whole thing, and just have an inlet somewhere on that for the ducting from the hood?

Sorry for all the separate comments here. Spacehead afternoon.

Judy
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  #39  
Old 2012-01-09, 12:38pm
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And would I (or furnace guy) build that from ducting materials?

I'm starting to reconsider just buying that inline one. Though, I think ducting material is pretty cheap...

Anyhow, PJ, I await further wisdom from you...
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Old 2012-01-09, 12:45pm
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Wonder if I could make that plenum out of something light and easy to cut...like fomecore?? That would be so easy...It won't get hot; it's eight feet from the hood...

PJ! Ohhhh, PJ!! Where ARRRE YOU???

Ok, JK, it's that kind of day here in my head...
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  #41  
Old 2012-01-09, 1:33pm
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You can make a plenum out of plywood and line it with metal foil backed insulation to dampen noise. I use a vacuum plenum box with a squirrel cage fan for my main ventilation.

The hole in my bench is made to fit a 10 inch duct. It's covered with a standard return air duct like you would put over a big return air vent in a wall. If you bend the louvers on it slightly you can have some effect of the direction of the air flow.
I've got mine set to send most of the air goes straight up.

For the most part I don't notice much change in the atmosphere under the hood unless it's either extremely hot or cold outside. I have a thermometer in my vacuum plenum and the temp stays pretty close to outside ambient most of the time. I run a GGT Mirage and will see a small uptick in temp in the box if I run the outer ring for a long time. I don't do that a lot, but I do keep an eye on the plenum temp when I do so that nothing overheats.

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  #42  
Old 2012-01-09, 2:13pm
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That is all very helpful, Robert, thank you. Great idea about the thermometer and the lined plywood box, too. I haven't been able to find the rigid insulation board with the foil, but at Home Depot they have some rolls of foil-backed stuff, would that be ok? I thought I would build the upper part of the hood out of fomecore and line with something like that. The lower part will be cement board. I'll just be using a CC Mini so I don't think heat will be too much of a problem that far from the torch?

Thanks so much for your input. I feel like this is coming along; every post helps clarify something. I'm hoping to start building it all soon.

Judy
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  #43  
Old 2012-01-09, 8:24pm
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Geeeze... I guess I gotta hang out here all the time. LOLOL

To answer your question, Yes!
Plenum is just a HVAC tern for an air box. Mine is made of 3/4" plywood, no lining, and mounted in the space above the ceiling about 5 to 6 ft from the torch flame. The transition gave me room to mount a set of louvers and a 'critter' screen; I have some inquisitive squirrels.

You can see the transition from the box to the side of the building in the photo. I added the hood pic to show that the plenum sits just above the hood in the studio below. There is no insulation or lining in the plenum and with my Mirage/Kabuki torch running with all fires it doesn't heat up enough to feel any differance.
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  #44  
Old 2012-01-09, 8:44pm
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Really! You are needed here! What else is so important??

Ok, I think this is coming together in my head. I'm thinking the duct from the hood goes thru the abandoned door, and the fan, in it's plump plywood plenum, is outside, where it won't take up usable space and won't make the room so noisy. It won't actually be Outside, but on a sort of abandoned porch-y, very open yet roofed area. Yeah, that'll work. Especially if I can scrounge the plywood, though it's only partly about saving money; also the loveliness of USING that fan & motor. Putting it outside will allow me to put in access to the motor sheaves to adjust speed, if necessary. Would be hard to do inside. Ok! Thanks, all--PJ, take tomorrow morning off!

Will keep you posted!
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  #45  
Old 2012-01-15, 5:03pm
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Default making progress...

Finally starting to actually figure out how to put this thing together. Starting with the old furnace fan that will power the exhaust. I'm a little embarrassed to show this, because it's pretty rough compared to a lot of the slick, finished stuff I've seen in here. But might be reassuring to others who are inclined to cobble things together.

This just shows the fan in place. I will build the rest of the plenum around it, and the duct (8" round) will come through this old door that the wooden frame is attached to. I Thought it might be helpful to anyone hoping to use one of these old furnace fan/motor combos to see how I ended up supporting it. Screwed through the fan housing into the plywood supports; the 2 x three in between is screwed into the door. I'll make the side that covers the pulleys easily removable so I can adjust the speed if necessary.

More pics when available. Have to do some actual work for a few days so won't be right away.
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  #46  
Old 2012-01-16, 9:35am
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Looking good so far. Keep it up.
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  #47  
Old 2012-01-17, 5:25am
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Oh, machine-people: as I have this mounted, the weight of the motor is deciding the tension on the belt; is that ok or should I devise a way to take the weight off of it? I know the belt shouldn't be too tight, and it doesn't feel terribly tight this way, plus the fan runs ok. But perhaps it's still enough to cause excess wear? I can figure out something if it would be better to have only the tension of the adjustment bolt to hold it.

Thanks!
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  #48  
Old 2012-01-17, 5:26am
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And by "machine-people," I of course meant "people who are knowledgeable about machinery," not "robots."
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  #49  
Old 2012-01-17, 12:04pm
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If the motor was determining the tension when it was mounted in its original manner on the furnace or whatever then it will probably be OK. Does it look like there are/were bolts to lock it in a set position on the mounting plate or however it is mounted? Is it possible that if the belt breaks that the motor would fall off and possibly rip out the wires? If that is the case then some form of 'stop' needs to be rigged. If a broken belt would do nothing more than stop the fan then use it and see; worst case is you have to buy a new belt and modify the setup. Maybe keep a new belt around just in case. In general these days motor weight tension systems are rare in my experience so investigate a bit further. A lot will depend on how the fan was mounted in its original use.

Little Tip: Those link belt belts that are made up of small individual interleaved links will run smoother and quieter, last a whole lot longer but are more expensive. I have them on my mill and lathe and they have lasted 12 years so far with no sign of wear.
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  #50  
Old 2012-01-18, 1:12pm
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No, the opening pointed up, so the motor was on the side; it's on a sort of hinge arrangement, which would be carrying some motor weight, but not all of it; then an adjustment bolt holds it out so the belt tension doesn't pull it in or make it bounce. I think it might be best to hook up a small chain or something to the assembly and attach to the wood frame so it's controlled by that bolt still. The motor can't fall off, though; it's firmly attached to the hinge apparatus. But that could get bent, I suppose, making a brand new problem.

I do appreciate the tip about the link belt. I knew of those but hadn't thought of it, I will probably do that before closing it up. But I'll make it easy to open that side in any case. Thanks for those thoughts, PJ.
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  #51  
Old 2012-02-09, 12:44pm
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Finally got a little bit more work done on the exhaust. Plenum made (I'll beef it up later with more duct tape and will make a more permanent kind of weather protection, as well as put a piece of hardware cloth over the opening to prevent critters from entering and causing trouble). Ducting in place. Just need to build the hood, and need a bit of advice on it.

Is there a certain minimum angle the pieces that go from back and sides up to the duct should have? In other words, can the top of the hood be too flat--would that make it not funnel the fumes as desired?

Any other relevant thoughts, numbers, etc. on the matter appreciated.

Thanks!

Judy
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  #52  
Old 2012-02-12, 12:48pm
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I turned it on after finally getting everything connected up. Even without the hood it easily grabs virtually all of the smoke from a burning paper towel. I think I'll wait and see whether I need to close off the area and install makeup air. I have a ceiling vent in the wood shop that is easy to open and close. I tested with that closed, and with it opened. Not a lot of difference, but it seemed to help some, so I'll test again when the hood is built, and see what happens. I didn't feel an uncomfortable breeze, and the fact that it was better with that vent opened may mean at least some of the air it's pulling out is not fully heated. So maybe it will work without more layers of complexity.

Any thoughts on my question just above, about the shape of the hood, will be welcomed. Thank you.

Judy
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  #53  
Old 2012-02-14, 3:00am
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Excellent posts judy..... I am in the process of building my own ventilation system now too. It's so helpful to hear the questions and answers as I go thu my own process.

I have one question that you might be able to answer for me. I am using the inline fan... do I still need a plenum - of which the whole idea is still a bit confusing to me.

Thanks for your help!'
'
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  #54  
Old 2012-02-14, 6:53am
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An in-line fan doesn't require a plenum. The squirrel cage blower works well with one but the intake and exhaust ports are configured differently from the in-line fan. Just make sure that your in-line fan is a real exhaust fan and not an in-line booster fan. Booster fans don't do well for primary ventilation.

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Old 2012-02-14, 9:09am
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An in-line fan doesn't require a plenum. The squirrel cage blower works well with one but the intake and exhaust ports are configured differently from the in-line fan. Just make sure that your in-line fan is a real exhaust fan and not an in-line booster fan. Booster fans don't do well for primary ventilation.

Robert
I bought this one... I hope it is correct!

http://www.amazon.com/inch-inline-hi...pd_sim_sbs_k_1
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  #56  
Old 2012-02-14, 9:23am
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Thank you both for these answers! Helps me out immenesly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by laserglass View Post
best for ventilation.....make up should be behind you
best for not bringing hot moist air or bone chilling air into your studio....make up at the back of the hood.

IMHO.....i want ventilation, and i will heat or cool my studio to compensate bringing the outdoors in.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by RSimmons View Post
I bring make up air in through the wall, ducted under my bench and up through the top in front of my torch. There is a blower at the intake hole. This removes the torch plume effectively without sucking all of the conditioned air out of the studio.

Robert
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Originally Posted by laserglass View Post
innovative solution!!!! does the temperature/humidity of your bench area change during the year (hot moist or bone chilling cold)??
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Old 2012-02-14, 10:22am
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Hmmm I can considering changing mine to intake air placement for in front of me too.... a good idea. Though I wonder if I will be having the chill of winter and/or the heat of summer blasting in my face.... which is what I want to avoid and why I have an indoor studio. Hmm???????
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Old 2012-02-14, 11:18am
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Trixx--I'm not using the inline fan since I came by the furnace blower at no cost, but the one you got looks right to me. Just to clarify fyi, the plenum is a box containing the blower, with the duct coming in one side and the fan blowing out the other side. Its function is to force the fan to pull air only from the duct by closing the fan off from surrounding air. That's all it does. I made mine mostly out of fomcore and it works great. So you don't need one because your in-duct fan is already only able to pull air from the duct it is installed in.

I still have to build the hood but then will be done. I'm going to try it with no intake at the work surface, just make-up air from the surrounding room--my larger shop is quite large, and there is a ceiling duct in the main shop I can open. So I'm hoping it will draw enough (outside) air from that opening that I won't lose heat too fast; and enough air from the rest of the room to effect adequate exhaust. Once I get it all set up I'll test and will post here to let you all know how it works out.

I'm thinking that the make-up air thing (as in, do you need it or don't you) is somewhat dependent on other variables, such as the size of the room you're in, the weather outside, the hood design and size, and how much air your system moves. That's just based on all the stuff I've read here from people with a more technical, numeric understanding than what I have, mind you. I do think that if knowledgeable people are not in agreement about it, that certainly means you have to carefully test whatever you do, and also that it may be these other variables are important in whether a given method works well or not. So...to perhaps save the trouble not so much of building air intake into the bench, but of enclosing the bead studio part of my space, I'm going to try it without first. If I don't get good enough draw, I'll start with a makeup air duct in the bench; if that's not enough, THEN will think about enclosing the bead studio.

So...report will come soon, I hope!

Judy
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Old 2012-02-14, 12:04pm
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Bead Trixx,
That fan looks like it will work great.

Judy, What did I tell you? You're already helping others with your newfound knowlege and insight. Way to go!

PJH
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Old 2012-02-14, 12:44pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judy D. View Post
Trixx--I'm not using the inline fan since I came by the furnace blower at no cost, but the one you got looks right to me. Just to clarify fyi, the plenum is a box containing the blower, with the duct coming in one side and the fan blowing out the other side. Its function is to force the fan to pull air only from the duct by closing the fan off from surrounding air. That's all it does. I made mine mostly out of fomcore and it works great. So you don't need one because your in-duct fan is already only able to pull air from the duct it is installed in.

I still have to build the hood but then will be done. I'm going to try it with no intake at the work surface, just make-up air from the surrounding room--my larger shop is quite large, and there is a ceiling duct in the main shop I can open. So I'm hoping it will draw enough (outside) air from that opening that I won't lose heat too fast; and enough air from the rest of the room to effect adequate exhaust. Once I get it all set up I'll test and will post here to let you all know how it works out.

I'm thinking that the make-up air thing (as in, do you need it or don't you) is somewhat dependent on other variables, such as the size of the room you're in, the weather outside, the hood design and size, and how much air your system moves. That's just based on all the stuff I've read here from people with a more technical, numeric understanding than what I have, mind you. I do think that if knowledgeable people are not in agreement about it, that certainly means you have to carefully test whatever you do, and also that it may be these other variables are important in whether a given method works well or not. So...to perhaps save the trouble not so much of building air intake into the bench, but of enclosing the bead studio part of my space, I'm going to try it without first. If I don't get good enough draw, I'll start with a makeup air duct in the bench; if that's not enough, THEN will think about enclosing the bead studio.

So...report will come soon, I hope!

Judy
Judy you Rock girl!! I admire all the work you have put into this adventure. Your questions and the way you figure this out are perfect.... it all makes sense to me. I have to admit I was following you right on until you switched fans and then panic set int! lol Luckily they wonderful peeps here helped me out and now I am going forward. I'm really looking forward to you getting up and running too. We can follow each others progress!

Giant Valentine Day Hugs to everyone here helping!!

Pixx
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