Respirator Cartridge Question

[anneli]

Hi Everyone

I have a respirator question. I am currently using a North 5500 respirator (half mask - Grainger #4GL92) along with North cartridges (Grainger #4RM20 - part #75SCP100). These are the big heavy cartridges which are purple and green in color (I believe the cannisters themselves have some kind of charcoal inside to catch fumes). They are SO heavy and sometimes make the whole mask slide down on my face...not to mention I get a neck ache at the end of the day. I'm looking for something else that is lighter to use. I've tried the smaller purple ones (4RM17) but I believe they are only for dust particles and not really giving me the protection I need from fumes. I work with alot of silver glass and without a mask and protection I get very cloudy and dizzy at times. My studio is in a spare room in my house. I have a hood with metal ducting and 2 fans inside that sucks bad air up and out ...and a window open behind me to bring make-up air in. Does anyone know of any other type of cartridges that I can use? I would truly appreciate any input on this. Thanks!

[SteveWright]

I inquired of 3M's Safety division about metal fume filters and got the following answer:

A 95 class or 100 class particle filter is recommended for silver and gold fume. Using the 3M 6300 Half Facepiece Respirator, any of the 2000 Series particle filters may be used. The 2078 P95, 2091 P100 or 2097 P100 Filter are suggested. All are similar in filter performance against metal fumes.

Steve

[Mitosis Glass]

I am going to Acklands Grainger in the next week to get a mask for myself and I wasn't sure which to get. Thanks so much for this information, and thank you to Annelli for asking it.

[DesertDreamer]

Just a thought...are you using propane for fuel? I wonder if it's the propane fumes and not metal fumes getting to you. Dunno if the cartridges you're using help with that or not. I've found, in the past, that metals don't bother me much, but I'm terribly sensitive to propane, especially when doing a lot of reduction.

[anneli]

Thank you all for your help. Steve, I have a set of the 2091 P100 cartridges which I'll try again. I seemed to still get a little dizzy when I tried them before, but I'll give it another go. Even with the heavier P100 cartridges I use now don't seem to help at times.....so I wonder if it is the propane and not the silver fume that is making me feel sick...and I wonder if the P100's will cover propane fume as well.

DesertDreamer, hmmm..maybe it is the propane. I wonder that myself at times. I did an incense test yesterday and it seems my fans are pulling all the air up and out through the ductwork..but who knows. Sometimes I get dizzy and other times I'm fine...so not sure.

Fishbulb, if you are going to Grainger..maybe you can bring back even more info for us all...that would be great! Any info will help.

Thanks all...i'll let you know how it goes

[houptdavid]

North cartriges are heavy, also you may have a face piece that is too big. They come in 3sizes (or did) but most places sell the large.
I spray a lot of Lacquer at work and never liked the North because of the cartridges. I have always used 3-M or Wilson in the past and now use a full face 3-M.

Remember that once you open the cartridges that they are working even if you are not using it, place your respriator in a large ziplock bag and seal it when not in use. Since you are using it for metal fumes you may not notice when the cartridges go bad. If there is an odor at all REPLACE the cartridges.

[Mitosis Glass]

Anne, yes if I learn any more from them I will surely post it here! I'm glad to learn more about the comfort level of the masks as well -- I was leaning toward a North but I won't buy one if they're heavy. I have a bad neck as it is, no point in making it worse.

Since I don't use a lot of metals I was just wanting a respirator for particles, for when I try enamels, and I was thinking of getting the smaller disposable masks. I'll see what they say when I get there.

[tenor_ringer]

Using respirators is a very complex issue.

In industry, those required to use a respirator must have a fit test done annually, must be medically cleared annually to wear one, and must receive annual training in their proper use and limitations.

If you have access to an industrial hygienist or safety engineer and can arrange one, a fit test (different from a fit check) to assess the respirator's fit to your face is a really good idea. If a respirator does not fit correctly, it will not protect you.

As the bare minimum, you MUST fit check (not the same as a fit test) your respirator every time you put it on. This is how to do it:
1) Put the respirator on, seat it correctly and tighten the straps.
2) Cover the exhalation valve with the palm of a hand, breathe out, and you should feel the respirator lift off your face, but you should not feel any leaks at the seal unless you put some real pressure into the mask.
3) Cover the cartridge openings with the palms of your hands, breathe in and hold the vacuum. The mask should pull tight against your face. You should not feel any inflow of air around the seal. If you do, there is something interfering with the seal (hair or beard stubble for guys), there's a problem with the mask, or the mask does not fit correctly. If you cannot pass the fit checks, the mask is not fitting correctly and will not protect you. Never use a mask that does not fit properly or is leaking.

Respirators usually have to be pretty tight on your head to give a good, durable seal. If it's sliding around, it probably needs to be tighter (respirators are not usually very comfortable).

NOTE: If you're feeling dizzy or foggy while using a respirator, that's a serious warning sign, that could mean any of several things, depending on your individual circumstances:
-You may be having an adverse physiological reaction to the additional stress that a respirator places on your body. It would be a very good idea to take your respirator to your doctor and have a chat about whether you should be using one.
-There may be some contaminant present that your mask and filter are not effective against.
-Your respirator may not be fitting correctly, so you are not being protected adequately.
-There could be a leak in the mask that is letting contaminants in. Inspect it thoroughly and pay particular attention to the inhalation/exhalation valves.
-There could be low oxygen concentration in your work area (unlikely if you have good air flow).
-You may be getting a buildup of carbon monoxide.

P-95 and P-100 cartridges are meant to protect against particulates only. They will not protect you against gases like propane, natural gas, or carbon monoxide.

The Grainger/North Olive/Magenta filters mentioned above are broad spectrum catridges that protect against a number of contaminants including organic vapors, chlorine, hydrogen chloride, sulfur dioxide, hydrogen fluoride, hydrogen sulfide, chlorine dioxide, formaldehyde, methylamine, and ammonia. They also incorporate a P100 particulate filter.

To protect you against metallic fumes, make sure you ask your supplier for cartridges that are specifically approved for that application.

Air purifying (filter type) respirators are not good for carbon monoxide or flammable gases; if you have enough of these substances present to need respiratory protection, you have a bigger problem to worry about: you're no longer in the realm of filter-type respirators, you need to get professional help to deal with them. (Our studio has a flammable gas/carbon monoxide alarm. If it ever goes off, we will evacuate and call 911).

No air purifying respirator (filter/cartridge type) will protect you from an oxygen-deficient atmosphere.

If at any time you can smell a contaminant, you are being exposed to it.

When you are done using your respirator, you should clean it and store it in a plastic bag to keep contaminants away from it.

I don't want to be a heavy, but I am a safety engineer/industrial hygienist in charge of the respiratory protection program at a major university, and I do this stuff for a living. Please be very careful with respirators. Using them incorrectly can lead to serious injury, illness or death. Ask lots of questions, do lots of reading and if you can find a safety professional locally to help you, please do.

[SteveWright]

Phil, thanks, I think a lot of people take the hazards of fuming too lightly, or may not be familiar with the risk. Anyone fuming without a respirator or killer fume hood, needs to search this site for more information.

I don't think you get woozy from fuming silver or gold. My understanding is that, with time and repeated unprotected exposure, you just start channeling Jim from Taxi.

Steve

Steve

[NMLinda]

Originally Posted by anneli

I work with alot of silver glass and without a mask and protection I get very cloudy and dizzy at times. My studio is in a spare room in my house. I have a hood with metal ducting and 2 fans inside that sucks bad air up and out ...and a window open behind me to bring make-up air in.

While your original question was about respirators, and you've gotten great advice already, perhaps your ventilation isn't quite what it needs to be. It's good that you have something in place and it's also good that you tested it. That said, I share the same concern for you as expressed by some of the others in this thread that perhaps you're more exposed to the combustion by-products of your torch than you are aware - and than you should be. Having sufficient ventilation as the critical foundation for your health protection will make using a mask even more effective.

A few things come to mind as possibilities - your fans may not be big enough (the second fan, if it's a duct booster, could even be limiting your protection if it's not the right size), you may not have it vented outside correctly or efficiently (is it just vented into the attic our truly outside? Lots of bends or a straight shot out?), you may have your hood too high above your work area for what your fan can do and you're not getting the fumes away fast enough (it should only take a couple of seconds for the incense smoke to go from the torch to the exit of the hood) or you may be one of those very sensitive individuals who need to use a barley box style fume hood instead of something open on all sides.

I'm very concerned for you that you're feeling woozy when you torch. If you'd like to bounce your ventilation set up off us to see if that might be contributing, folks here would be glad to help in any way we can.

Linda

[tenor_ringer]

Linda raises a very good point.

In the industrial safety world, OSHA gives us a hierarchy of interventions. We're required to start with engineering controls, that is, eliminating the problem by changing the process and/or physical workplace by using less hazardous materials or processes, better ventilation, etc. When we have exhausted those possibilities, we must move to administrative controls like job rotation, limiting time working on the hazardous process, etc. Only when those possibilities are exhausted are we allowed to consider the use of personal protective equipment like respirators.

If you're getting dizzy/woozie while torching without your respirator, it's probably a sign that you need to work on the exhaust and makeup air flow. (If you get wuzzie only while wearing the respirator, then it's probably time to check in with your doc.)

Anne, I wonder, do you have difficulties when working with non-metallic glasses as well? Do the fuzzies come on right away, or is there some delay?

[anneli]

Thanks everyone..for all your input.

Yes, I usually get woozy like within 20 mins or so...while wearing the mask or without the mask (although I havent NOT worn a mask in quite a long time). I figured I should always be wearing the mask, now that I work inside. I get woozy whether I'm working with metallic or non-metallic glass..doesn't really matter. I'm thinking it must be my vent (maybe too high up) or I may need stronger fans. I've been through this so many times before...I think it's time to actually make a change and see what helps. Then of course there are days when I feel fine...so I dunno.

I think I'm going to start with lowering the actually vent down...it seems a bit too high. I have one window open behind me and the door to the room barely open (ajar)....but this is a small room. There is also a door to the left of me going out into the garage, maybe I should open that too? Hmmm...it's so hard to figure out just what will work....but I'll try the vent height first. How far away should my torch be from the duct opening? Also, I think I have two 500 fans up in the duct. There are maybe 2 bends in the duct and it goes out up into the attic and out a air vent to the outside.

Anyhow, I'll try to get back to you all once we figure out the vent height..gonna take awhile to change it all. Thanks again!

[Lorraine Chandler]

Here you go...look at the one I use. I think it is exactly what you want. I love mine.. Very lightweight.

I bought mine and the filters at my local Airgas and they come in small med and large.

http://www.survivair.com/products/pr...view.asp?id=45

Please e-mail me if you have more questions.
Lorraine

[NMLinda]

Oh boy, if you're feeling woozy after only 20 min, regardless of the type of glass you're using, you're not getting the torch combustion fumes out hardly at all, let alone anything the glass releases. My gut feeling is that your fans are likely your biggest problem. If your fan isn't big enough and the right type, it can't draw the air and fumes up and out, no matter how big the make-up air source is behind you.

Did you get your fans some place like Home Depot? If so, they are likely just duct boosters instead of 'real' fans, which, as many folks here can tell you, aren't going to do much. Duct boosters are designed to work in tandem with a 'real' ducting fan. They typically won't provide even close to the rated cfm without a 'real' fan driving them and they will limit the total air flow to whatever their maximum cfm rating is. In other words, a 'real' fan with 500 cfm max air flow driving a duct booster with 500 cfm only gives you 500 cfm, best case, which I'm guessing is probably way less than you need for how your hood is installed. If you have two duct boosters cascaded, you're probably getting far less than even the 500 cfm rating.

Just to give you an idea of what you might need, and as an example, if your hood is 3' wide and is 2' above your worktable, the fan size you'd need is:

750 cfm = 3' x 2' x 125

This assumes you don't have a back and sides on your hood. The source I used to calculate this is

http://mikeaurelius.wordpress.com/ventilation-primer/

Continuing to use a 3' wide hood in the above example, if it were higher than 2' above your table, you'd need an even bigger fan. To stick with 500 cfm, you'd have to lower your hood to about 16" off your work surface (might be inconvenient). If you just have duct boosters installed, and no 'real' fan, you could easily be getting only, say 250 cfm instead of the 500 cfm you thought, and you'd have to lower the hood to 8" off your work surface (doubt you'd want to do that!).

If you do, indeed, only have duct boosters as your fans, I highly recommend you stop torching immediately and get something better installed. Your fan combination, whatever it happens to be, is clearly underpowered, regardless. Get a good squirrel cage fan or a good in line duct fan from a company like FanTech, Vortex, or CanFan. These are specifically designed to be stand-alone ventilation fans and have the 'beefy' design you need to exhaust the fumes I'm afraid are accumulating around you as you work.

I highly recommend reading through the ventilation primer link, above, and reading through related material in the ventilation section of the Art Glass Answers forum and the safety and studio sections on LE, if you haven't already. These resources will help you understand how to select the right size fan for the size hood you want (or have) and for the working height you prefer.

These fumes can make you very, very sick, as you're already experiencing. There have been some LE members who have unfortunately experienced some long term health consequences from not having good enough ventilation. I'm so glad you posted, by the way. We want to keep you with us for a long, long time!

Linda

[anneli]

Wow...thanks for the info Linda. And thanks for the picture of the mask Toucan.

I'm going to measure my hood and get back to you and let you know how high up it is and how wide etc. I have two 500cfm fans...and yes, we bought them at Home Depot...so that is probably my problem! I need a stronger fan it seems. I have read Mike's post before..this was way back when i first set up my in-house studio. I set up things to what was in the post...but i had and still do have alot of trouble understanding all the specifications. Everyone had a different answer. I guess we thought putting 2 500 fans would double the amount...guess not.

Anyhow, i'll get back with the hood specs...I'm getting worried now! Seems I'll have to start from scratch again and change the whole setup.

Thanks SO much for all of your info....and while i'm at it..i'll be searching for a new mask. Toucan...do you use the big heavy purple cannisters shown in the picture you posted? Those are the ones I think i'm trying to get away from..but if I need them, I will use them again.

Thanks again everyone..i'll be back soon with more info

[SteveWright]

I saw a clever design for a vent hood made from a 30 gallon trash can. The can hung upside down, with a big vent pipe attached to the bottom of the can. The top of the can was centered over the path of the fumes, just past the tip of the flame.

Steve

[Lorraine Chandler]

They are not really heavy, if you do not have the mask fitted correctly they will feel like that. The mask I have adjusts very well and I keep it tight in the back and when you get a mask that fits right you don't feel the heaviness.

Getting the opti fit really made a difference. I called several companies and manufacturers discussed at length what I do and these filters were the best protection for glass...fuming, glass dust, silver fumes etc. They are called the P100 MICRO filters listed in the Airgas catalog. SUP 105005

Lorraine