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Tips, Techniques, and Questions -- Technical questions or tips

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  #61  
Old 2008-12-11, 11:39am
Moth Moth is offline
Mary Lockwood
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayley View Post
I can completely see both sides of the discussion here. Personally, I can't even follow the tutorial exactly without putting my own spin in it . . . my goddess from Lavender Creek's tute was slender, a body I would want to have and not the one I will have! lol! . . . my first Helen Harvest floral was a hibiscus . . . only tutorials I followed exactly were Lydia's Floral Panel, Shari's Rainbow and Andrea's Moth Wings.

Having said that, as Carol as mentioned, if you purchased a sculptural tutorial such as Bird, Pansy, or Dragon tutorial, with the exception of changing the glass and colors used, there is not that much "spin" you can add to it.

While I completely and totally understand where you are coming from, I have received already one email with an attached picture of how someone took my bird tutorial and used what they learned in it to conquer the problems they had been having with their dragon wings.

I know this doesn't apply to every single tutorial out there...but it is a good example of what I was trying to say.

And if I may reiterate...my tutorials have no limitations on them other than not duplicating and distributing the tutorial itself..not what you make from it.

I see both sides, and have no problem with either.

I do agree though that whatever policy should be up front.
~~Mary
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  #62  
Old 2008-12-11, 11:42am
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You Reap what you Sew.....if I had made a tutorial for others to purchase it would be a right of the buyer to do as they please with it.

Once it is in print or in the realm of the internet (esp for sale) there is really no going back or any statement that will control others and what they make or sell.

Just my two cents.

HAPPY HOLIDAYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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  #63  
Old 2008-12-11, 11:43am
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Mary Lockwood
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2 TOUCANS View Post
For me ..It is about the beads. That is why people ask for tuts on an artists beads. For example Kimberlys seahorses. I would buy the tut because it IS the seahorse.

I was not trying to figure them out to copy as a goal but learn the technique.

But here is where TRUE artistic talent comes into play: as I was reading her tuts I was already in my mind changing them...colors and patterns and sometimes shapes of the bead.

Lorraine
Lorraine,

In your first sentence you say it is about the beads, but later in your post you say it is about the techniques. I actually think we are making the same point using different words.

I'm not disagreeing with you at all, some tutorials really are simply recipes on how to make a specific bead, but even those are engineered for you to take the learned skills and use them in other ways too.

That's all I was trying to say.

If you bought a seahorse tutorial, what you learned from it would help you in a lot more ways than just seahorse beads.

~~Mary
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  #64  
Old 2008-12-11, 12:10pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeadDesignsByCarol View Post
When tutorials first started coming out for purchase, I asked about the copying thing. I really didn't feel comfortable with the answers I got. I would feel guilty when I was trying to make the bead using the tutorial, thinking uh-oh, I'm trying to make this bead exactly like the tutorial. The police will be knocking on my door any second. I don't know how else to learn to make the bead with a tutorial but to copy exactly, so I didn't purchase any tutorials until Helen Simon said we would have her blessing to copy and sell the beads made using her tutorials.

It's just all so confusing to me and I can't stand the guilt. If the advice given on this thread were taken it would certainly make it more appealing to me to buy more tutorials. I'm going to hurry and click post reply before I chicken out, lol.
I don't understand why you would have guilt following the tutorial exactly as it is written. That is one of the ways we learn. I wouldn't give a supplies list and color list and everything else if I didn't want you to follow the tutorial. LOL I can understand where you might not want to sell those exact duplicates if you have a personal issue with that or if someone requested you didn't.

My jellyfish tutorial was the 3rd one marketed through LE at least partially (I think). There was lavendercreek's goddess first, then Sherry's chaos, then the jellyfish and I wrote in several different threads and answered questions that I didn't mind if they sold jellyfish beads.

Seeing a request to know in advance how I feel about it, I would surely make my feelings more prominently known, but this is all still relatively new ground...we are all learning what to do. All of us, no matter the seller or the buyer.

~~Mary
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  #65  
Old 2008-12-11, 12:10pm
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I have over 35 tuts and I have tried most of them - for the most part, I can no more duplicate the writers beads if my life depended on it - will I use what I learned in my own style beads? You betcha! I am rambling and forgot my train of thought except to be amazed at anyone who can make a knock-off that looks like the original.
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  #66  
Old 2008-12-11, 12:12pm
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MaryBeth MaryBeth is offline
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I see that no one has yet brought up another problem. What about the tut writer who prohibits replication of the bead for sale but the design is a common one?

For example: let's say someone writes a tutorial for a horse head bead. Maybe the author makes a lot of horse head beads and is known for them. Everyone loves the author's Arabian horse head beads so that is what the tutorial specifically teaches. The author makes some kind of statement that they don't mind if people make horse head beads as long as they aren't Arabian horse head beads. Or maybe people should make other kinds of animal heads because, after all, the tut author is know for their horse head beads.

All of a sudden we now have a situation where people own a "subject". I can look at 100 paintings of Arabian horses and it might appear that the horses have been copied in some cases but in reality the only copying that has been done is from real life.

And, what about the case where another artist who makes Arabian horse head beads teaches them in a hands-on class. They look a lot like the Arabian horse head beads taught in the tut. Or what about the person who just loves Arabian horses and figures out how to make Arabian horse head beads on their own? Must they put a disclaimer on their work every time they sell it?

I really feel that if a person publishes a tut they should expect copies to be sold. They should expect competition in their "own" marketplace especially if it is someplace like Etsy or eBay. To me it is a little ridiculous to prohibit sales in those venues.

I don't think there are very many people on these forums who are making beads just for the fun of it. Almost everyone ends up selling them.

And, if you sell a tutorial that's the way is going to be.
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  #67  
Old 2008-12-11, 12:22pm
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I have to throw my 2 pennies in the pot now.. I think when a tut states anything restrictive in their tutorial it is like giving with one hand and taking with the other. In my view even words that were quoted a couple of posts back, that are as positive as ' use this as a springboard...' are restrictive because the author felt they had to be said somehow suggests a reluctance to my ear. Really, the artist that takes your tut and copies it color for color line for line is not an artist anyone needs to be worried about..they are no competition to you, nor ever will be. I really like Mary Moths outlook and I'd have to go back to quote verbatim but she's happy for the buyer to do as they will and thats the way it needs to be in my humble opinion. If anything needs to be said at all then it should be simply do what ever tickles your fancy, if that's to duplicate..so be it. Personally, I'm so turned off tutorials now I really don't know if I'd purchase any more, but that's just me..AND that is NOT a reflection on the ones I have purchased.
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  #68  
Old 2008-12-11, 12:45pm
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I've been thinking about that too, Mary Beth. I haven't seen it mentioned out loud anywhere, but I've been thinking it. That is another reason I had no desire to restrict what people do with anything I put out there. Frankly, the first 3-dimensional jellyfish beads that inspired me were japanese. I could find NOTHING about how to make them from anywhere, ever. I searched and searched...even without translations there was nothing anywhere. This was 3-4 years ago mind.

Then I found an offhand mushroom pendant tuturial on a boro site and thought I could maybe play around with that and see what happened. 2.5 years later I finally came up with what are the jellyfish beads I make today.

I don't have the slightest hesitation in selling that tutorial because I worked hard to develop what I made. Came up with it by branching off of a most basic tutorial in a medium I didn't even use at the time. So...even though there are beads out there that came before mine...these are still my jellyfish and I teach them as such. I earned them.

However, I don't see any need to be territorial about them in a way that restricts others from having fun with making them and selling them. If I taught them, it is because I wanted them to know how to make them...and I was paid for that privilege to boot...so as far as I'm concerned students can do what they want with the knowledge they have. Frankly, people are going to do what they want anyway and you can either fight that and look less than generous, or you can give people license to do as they will and reap their gratitude and friendship.

It's a no brainer for me.
~~Mary
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  #69  
Old 2008-12-11, 12:52pm
Carols Glass Carols Glass is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moth View Post
I don't understand why you would have guilt following the tutorial exactly as it is written. That is one of the ways we learn. I wouldn't give a supplies list and color list and everything else if I didn't want you to follow the tutorial. LOL I can understand where you might not want to sell those exact duplicates if you have a personal issue with that or if someone requested you didn't.

My jellyfish tutorial was the 3rd one marketed through LE at least partially (I think). There was lavendercreek's goddess first, then Sherry's chaos, then the jellyfish and I wrote in several different threads and answered questions that I didn't mind if they sold jellyfish beads.

Seeing a request to know in advance how I feel about it, I would surely make my feelings more prominently known, but this is all still relatively new ground...we are all learning what to do. All of us, no matter the seller or the buyer.

~~Mary
I think it was because of some of the answers I had read about copying.
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  #70  
Old 2008-12-11, 1:12pm
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Yes, Carol, I can certainly understand that...but the copying issue comes up regardless of tutorials. People copy beads all the time and don't need step by step instructions to do it.

I can understand wanting to know in advance exactly what you are allowed to do, it makes sense to me. I just wanted to let you know that the reason it isn't more widespread already is that we are ALL still figuring out how best to do this. It is new.

~~Mary
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  #71  
Old 2008-12-11, 1:14pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moth View Post
I've been thinking about that too, Mary Beth. I haven't seen it mentioned out loud anywhere, but I've been thinking it. That is another reason I had no desire to restrict what people do with anything I put out there. Frankly, the first 3-dimensional jellyfish beads that inspired me were japanese. I could find NOTHING about how to make them from anywhere, ever. I searched and searched...even without translations there was nothing anywhere. This was 3-4 years ago mind.

Then I found an offhand mushroom pendant tuturial on a boro site and thought I could maybe play around with that and see what happened. 2.5 years later I finally came up with what are the jellyfish beads I make today.

I don't have the slightest hesitation in selling that tutorial because I worked hard to develop what I made. Came up with it by branching off of a most basic tutorial in a medium I didn't even use at the time. So...even though there are beads out there that came before mine...these are still my jellyfish and I teach them as such. I earned them.

However, I don't see any need to be territorial about them in a way that restricts others from having fun with making them and selling them. If I taught them, it is because I wanted them to know how to make them...and I was paid for that privilege to boot...so as far as I'm concerned students can do what they want with the knowledge they have. Frankly, people are going to do what they want anyway and you can either fight that and look less than generous, or you can give people license to do as they will and reap their gratitude and friendship.

It's a no brainer for me.
~~Mary

In no way, shape or form was I suggesting that a person limit themselves on what they create a tut about!

I've found your jelly fish tut very informative but there is no way that my jelly fish bead (when I get around to making one) will look exactly like yours.

You have a very wonderful and giving attitude and the scenario I described didn't have to do with you.

I was trying to discuss a hypothetical situation that could happen but hasn't happened. . .yet. I just really would like people who write tuts (and that may include myself in the future) to think about it! I guess I was thinking of a situation where a person posted a request for a tut for a particular type of bead and the responses suggested that they shouldn't make that particular type of bead because "X" already made that type of bead! The responders were saying that "X" owned that subject! Yes, really! And, I'm not saying what the subject was because "X" wasn't even aware of the thread as far as I know. We have a bunch of people (kind of like groupies) on here that are always ready to rip someone a new one if someone even ventures into someone else's perceived territory! Remember - I'm talking about a subject - not a technique!
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  #72  
Old 2008-12-11, 1:21pm
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OH, Mary Beth, I knew you weren't talking about ME...I was just using myself as an example so I wouldn't have to use anyone else as one. I guess I didn't do too good of a job. LOL

Last week someone emailed me and requested that I do a sea turtle tutorial. I don't know WHO could possibly say that sea turtles are their specialty...but I know it isn't ME...so I politely informed her that I would not be making a sea turtle tutorial and gave her a link to Glass Line magazine that had a wonderful sea turtle tutorial in their last issue.

I can easily see how tempting it is though for someone to just say, yeah..ok I will make a sea turtle tutorial and then having it come out too close to the one in the magazine and potentially hurting feelings.

Then it comes to the 'but sea turtles are a common design' to which my answer would be....then we don't need any more sea turtle tutorials...find the ones that are already out there. LOL

Is that a better example? I really do understand what you were trying to say. I think I was just trying to respond with what my feelings would be if someone were to say that I had no business making the jellyfish tutorial because mine weren't the first ones out there.

They would be right...mine weren't the first ones...but I DID come across them on my own with years of experimentation and happy accidents. So even though they weren't first...they are still mine. After all these years I STILL don't know if I do them the same way as the japanese beadmakers that I am familiar with do them. They look the same, but I have no clue how they do it. THAT brings me back to the whole it isn't about the bead thing with the tutorials...it is about the techniques to get the bead. If I do it different, then my tutorial is still valid even if my beads aren't.

Jen Geldard has a bird tutorial out but that didn't slow me down from putting mine out because they are completely different.

If my birds looked like hers, it would be kinda idiotic for me to put out another tutorial similar to hers...I would be shooting myself in the foot. In more ways than one!

~~Mary
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Last edited by Moth; 2008-12-11 at 1:25pm.
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  #73  
Old 2008-12-11, 1:23pm
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Kevan Kevan is offline
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I've had people tell me they made a bead, figured something out on their own, only to find out that someone else "owns" that technique so they were terrified of posting it or even trying to sell it on Ebay because they would be eviscerated for "copying" someone.

I've also seen someone explain the way they figured out how to do something in a thread only to be attacked by someone who claimed it was "their" technique, they own it, and you are trying to take credit for it. Take credit for figuring out a basic technique that anyone who worked glass for any period of time would come to figuring out.

This "ownership" of art is not something I have encountered in the art world before. As a painter it's all very foreign to me. I have never known a painter to claim to "own" a technique before.

Maybe that means bead making is a "craft"? I don't know. I don't know how to think about it.
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  #74  
Old 2008-12-11, 1:27pm
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I've seen that before too, Kevan and it is ridiculous.
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  #75  
Old 2008-12-11, 1:30pm
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theglasszone theglasszone is offline
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(Long sigh!)

Frankly, I'm thrilled that Jen started this thread!!! Even if it's been discussed in the past, obviously there is still ambiguity and such a variation of perspectives, it's worth continuing the discussion and hashing out.

Just for the record, here's mine:

*I copy you!
*You copy those who taught you, or whose art you admired that inspired you to create in glass in the first place!
*They copied those who came before them!
*Ad infinium....
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_infinitum)

For anyone who doesn't want to be copied:

*Don't write a tutorial and sell it!
*Use caution when posting photos of your work - tutorials aren't always necessary when it comes to having others "copy" your work.
*If you insist on writing a tutorial, and profiting from it thereby, but don't want your work duplicated and/or sold, POST THIS SPECIFICALLY ON YOUR INITIAL AD OR SELLING PAGE so your potential customer is aware of your feelings up front and can decide if they want to buy your coveted information or not!
*If you choose NOT to forewarn your potential customer of your "don't copy" perspective in clear, plain-as-day writing so they can decide PRIOR TO PURCHASING (i.e., provide this information in the middle or end of your tut) then TOUGH LUCK!
*Prepare yourself to "police" and "prosecute" those who may violate this caveat, but please use sensible discretion unless your request is not complied with after first contact.


With that said, I have some additional observations:

*No matter how I try, I can't even "copy" MYSELF, let alone YOU! You do, though, serve to inspire me!
*Although I seem to always deviate (from colors of glass used to size differences to all-out flip-flop variations) from the specifics of the tuts I've purchased, not everyone chooses to do so. And that's OK!!! Some of my best ideas have been born from trying to copy you!
*Anyone who chooses to put the inference or outright specific of "please don't copy and/or sell beads that are associated with this tutorial" (no one's specific tut quoted here, by the way!) is, IMHO, not only shunning those who came before them to teach, nurture, supply and influence THEIR OWN WORK, but is denying acknowledgment of those teachers who have basically kept this art form alive through their acts of selflessness, and standing somewhat on a pedestal! So there!!!!

OK - light the torch, and let the flaming of my ass begin!!!

De
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Last edited by theglasszone; 2008-12-11 at 2:12pm. Reason: Didn't mean to HOLLA at 'cha!!! :)
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  #76  
Old 2008-12-11, 1:36pm
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What I can't figure out, Mary Beth, is why a "subject" should even be discussed. Many people make flower beads and they do not necessarily all look alike. Many people make fish beads and they don't look alike. Would this be like me saying no one can make a Clown Fish, just because that is the most popular fish I sell? Many people make Clown Fish and they all pretty much resemble God's idea of a Clown Fish and not necessarily mine.

Perhaps the issue will raise its ugly head at some time in the future, but to my way of thinking "Arabian Horses" cannot be owned. tutorial or not.

All these threads on tutorials are very interesting and giving both buyers and creators a lot to think about. Tutorials on glass beads is in its infancy, so we all benefit from these discussions.
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  #77  
Old 2008-12-11, 1:41pm
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Originally Posted by kimberly View Post
Why are you yelling???
If you meant, me - sorry!

De
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  #78  
Old 2008-12-11, 1:57pm
sarah_hornik sarah_hornik is offline
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I just stumbled across an interesting list of quotes this week:
http://quote.robertgenn.com/getquote...63&numcats=345

These are some of my favorites.
(I am making NO implications here whatsoever and have no desire to debate any of these, just sharing them because I think they're interesting.)

Quote:
A lotta cats copy the Mona Lisa, but people still line up to see the original. (Louis Armstrong)
Quote:
If my students seem to copy me when they are learning, that is good. It shows they are listening and trying to do what I tell them. They will develop their own style soon enough. (William Draper)
Quote:
Out in the sun, some painters are lined up. The first is copying nature, the second is copying the first, the third is copying the second... You see the sequence. (Paul Gauguin)
Quote:
Lots of people know a good thing the minute the other fellow sees it first. (J. E. Hedges)
Quote:
Copying has been a time-honored means of learning how to do anything. (Gabriella Morrison)
Quote:
Success is dangerous. One begins to copy oneself, and to copy oneself is more dangerous than to copy others. It leads to sterility. (Pablo Picasso)
Quote:
Xerox copies, Artists Create. (CJ Rider)
Quote:
Copying can give you insights into somebody else's process, which may help you to a new level. But copying is a tool, not an answer. (Skip Rohde)
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  #79  
Old 2008-12-11, 1:57pm
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MaryBeth MaryBeth is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pam View Post
What I can't figure out, Mary Beth, is why a "subject" should even be discussed. Many people make flower beads and they do not necessarily all look alike. Many people make fish beads and they don't look alike. Would this be like me saying no one can make a Clown Fish, just because that is the most popular fish I sell? Many people make Clown Fish and they all pretty much resemble God's idea of a Clown Fish and not necessarily mine.

Perhaps the issue will raise its ugly head at some time in the future, but to my way of thinking "Arabian Horses" cannot be owned. tutorial or not.

All these threads on tutorials are very interesting and giving both buyers and creators a lot to think about. Tutorials on glass beads is in its infancy, so we all benefit from these discussions.
I guess I was trying to gently say that some of the tuts are for beads that many other people also make. That's not to say that someone can't make a tut for that bead. It just seems it would be impossible to limit the usage of that tut. There are several out there where I already know how to make the finished bead without the tut. Now, if the tut writer says not to make "their" beads what exactly does that mean

I'm not trying to start anything here! I've taken a lot of classes and I own a lot of books. I subscribe to a lot of magazines. So, it is natural that I might already know how to do something that is in a tut. So, in my mind, ownership of a particular technique or subject is rather hazy.

In short, if I purchase a tut I will eventually use what I learn from that tut. That's why I am spending the money on it.
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  #80  
Old 2008-12-11, 2:12pm
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I agree with a lot of what's been said here, on both sides of the discussion.

(As a quick aside - I appreciate that we're discussing more than the original question posed, but in reality, the way that the topic evolved is related to the original question, and I'm not sure anything would be gained by having to make a new thread.)

So, if we're talking about restrictions placed by authors on how tutorial information is used:

I have no desire to copy other beads identically, but I also believe that if you purchase information on how to do something, you should be able to use that knowledge as it was presented.

If artists want to keep their signature beads as "proprietary", then it makes more sense to me for the tutorial author to take the techniques that they want to teach, and put them in a bead that they don't mind people copying. For example (I'll borrow Kimberly just because it's an easy example), if Kimberly wanted to sell her twistie technique, I think it'd be better for her to demo it as an abstract design and not a seahorse.

Why should the artist have to do this and not the purchaser? Because it's the artist who is taking money in exchange for information, and they shouldn't sell anything they don't want the customer to do.

I've taken classes in making super realistic bugs and fish, and perfectly proportioned sculptural people. To then say that I can't make them for sale like I learned, what was the point of me taking the class??

I've seen the statement in Jim Kervin's books too, and I feel the same way about them that I feel about those statements on Tutorials. You shouldn't take my money if you don't want me to do what you're teaching me.
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  #81  
Old 2008-12-11, 2:34pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashtonjewels View Post
I know I've rambled a lot here, but basically I think that if you choose to publish techniques, you have to mentally prepare yourself for the possible retirement or evolution of the technique that you may have been well known for. You have to be ready to set it free and let it go or else you'll go mad.
Lydia, thank you for the comments. I think those are particularly insightful (and the rest from you post, too). I particularly respect that you make the distinction, and that it may not be easy.

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Originally Posted by Moth View Post
If I want to teach dots, but don't want to give away my best ideas...then I teach dots on a less important bead. If you put the whole design out there, people are going to want to use it.

~~Mary
And I'm fine with this. I think this is very fair.

As I mentioned before, I personally won't duplicate a bead. First, I probably don't have the technical level at this point. Then it would bore me - it would be production work for me while I believe it would be a labor of love for the original creator.

But if I buy a tutorial and then am told I can't make the bead, it will affect my creative process. I won't be sure I can use the technique or how I can use the technique (which may or may not be a common technique) or how different a use is different enough, I'll question the whole thing and it won't be fun. I may do it anyway, but it will be a yucky "I'm going to do it anyway thought" instead of a happy "look at the pretty things glass does" thought.

I know there a people out there that will duplicate beads. I also believe that the soul put into a bead shows through in it's beauty. And that someone who is purely copying isn't putting a true piece of themselves in the bead, and so it won't have that extra something. And I believe that extra something will win out in the long run.

I could be wrong, it's my opinion and worth what you paid for it and YMMV
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Old 2008-12-11, 2:46pm
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Just curious, Mary Beth, do any of the tutorials that are about more commonly made beads also limit the making of that bead? I would hate to think that is so, but.....

I really do understand everyone's perspective on the tutorials, but does anyone think that perhaps we are limiting ourselves to tutorials of more common techniques if we tell the author of the tutorial that her beads will be copied hundreds and hundreds of times by anyone who buys the tutorial? There are many beads I would like to see a tutorial on, just to learn the techniques, but I doubt seriously that any of those artists will contemplate creating one if they believe that will happen. On the other hand, if it were generally allowed by the "community" that the tutorial can say this is for technical information purposes only, what I am hearing is that most people wouldn't buy the tutorial.
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  #83  
Old 2008-12-11, 3:05pm
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I'm not going to get involved in the whole tutorial theatrics again.

I only wanted to say that my tutorial states that you can make and sell whatever you make from it. If I didn't want anyone making my beads, I wouldn't have written the tutorial.
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  #84  
Old 2008-12-11, 3:14pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pam View Post
I really do understand everyone's perspective on the tutorials, but does anyone think that perhaps we are limiting ourselves to tutorials of more common techniques if we tell the author of the tutorial that her beads will be copied hundreds and hundreds of times by anyone who buys the tutorial? There are many beads I would like to see a tutorial on, just to learn the techniques, but I doubt seriously that any of those artists will contemplate creating one if they believe that will happen. On the other hand, if it were generally allowed by the "community" that the tutorial can say this is for technical information purposes only, what I am hearing is that most people wouldn't buy the tutorial.
I agree with you, Pam (how about that! lol!) . . . there are a lot of tutorials I would love to see just to know how the techniques are done. It wouldn't stop me from buying any tutorials for technical information purposes only. I believe Kimberly said this in another thread and I can't agree with her more . . . one of the reasons of purchasing tutorials is to support our fellow lampworkers!

It's important to have that stated clearly tho . . . and from what this thread indicates . . . best to say that up front!
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  #85  
Old 2008-12-11, 3:21pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pam View Post
Just curious, Mary Beth, do any of the tutorials that are about more commonly made beads also limit the making of that bead? I would hate to think that is so, but.....

I really do understand everyone's perspective on the tutorials, but does anyone think that perhaps we are limiting ourselves to tutorials of more common techniques if we tell the author of the tutorial that her beads will be copied hundreds and hundreds of times by anyone who buys the tutorial? There are many beads I would like to see a tutorial on, just to learn the techniques, but I doubt seriously that any of those artists will contemplate creating one if they believe that will happen. On the other hand, if it were generally allowed by the "community" that the tutorial can say this is for technical information purposes only, what I am hearing is that most people wouldn't buy the tutorial.

I don't own all of the tuts out there so I don't really know
I personally don't intend to make exact copies of beads in tuts but it should be expected.

I took a Jim Smircich class years ago. It was a two day class and he demonstrated many of his very unique beads. He did specifically ask to not copy one bead although he did demonstrate it. What he meant was don't use the exact color combination and design. We were all fine with that. The reason we were fine with it is that the technique was useful enough to be incorporated into totally different beads.

If a tut is all about a design then the tut creator should realize that design will be made.

For example, Jen's window bead tut. I love that tut! Will I make window beads? Yes, I will! Will I copy the exact colors and pattern she used in the tut? No I won't - I have enough of my own ideas. I can take her design and make it my way and still feel that I have learned something new that can be applied other than the exact way she presented it. So, her tut is about a certain design. But the design is flexible enough so that others can be creative with it. So, I guess it really is a design technique.

Oh, Deb - I love your tut! That is a tut that I really think is a technique tut and I have so many ideas on how to adapt it! I'll post some beads once I have time to get back on the torch!
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  #86  
Old 2008-12-11, 3:24pm
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*nods* I completely understand, Kimberly.

As far as the realistic bugs and people classes, that's why I took the classes - because I wanted to make what was being taught - realistic looking bugs, and sculptural people. If I had been told prior to taking the class that the teacher didn't want people replicating what was being taught, I would have chosen a traditional beadmaking class where I learned techniques that would be more easily transferable into various designs.

As to tutorials - I do see where you're coming from. But I don't like how things become "off limits" even though you're paying to learn how to make them; it feels wrong somehow. I try to honor and respect the wishes of the artist, but now I'm responsible for reading someone else's mind, and deciding if they think it's too close or if I made enough changes, when I have no idea what's going through their head. It's crazymaking.

ETA - a bunch of people have posted since I've been writing this LOL

Parisgal, I agree with you, obviously LOL

Pam, if the techniques stand on their own, then it should be possible to teach it on a bead that is different than the artist's signature style. That way, the technique is separate from the not-to-be-duplicated bead.
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  #87  
Old 2008-12-11, 3:39pm
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Originally Posted by MaryBeth View Post

Oh, Deb - I love your tut! That is a tut that I really think is a technique tut and I have so many ideas on how to adapt it! I'll post some beads once I have time to get back on the torch!

Thank you Marybeth, that is exactly what I was hoping people would get from my tutorial.
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  #88  
Old 2008-12-11, 3:50pm
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Lydia I am sure if you were to continue to make your flower panel beads they will still sell. I bought your tutorial and there is no way in hell I'd be able to exactly duplicate it, and I don't think anyone else can do it just the way you do either.

My opinion is basically it's just up to consumers to decide whether they want to buy the real deal or the "generic" version. For example anyone can paint, but why is it that there are people in big cities making thousands of dollars for a picture and others can't make ten bucks? It's all about experience, talent, and the character of the artist that draws people to their work, and make them more willing to fork out the cash. (If they had it that is, times are tough right now!)
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Old 2008-12-11, 3:51pm
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Wow I am very impressed how this thread has progressed.

MaryBeth I totally agree with what you are saying about the horse heads. Here's a confession I bought a bought a tut that I totally knew how to do before I bought it. Why? Because I didnt want to hear from anyone or the author that I stole their idea because I had not paid for the tut. For me I thought about it and it was just worth it to pay the money and be done with it than keep thinking on it. I think its fun to make those beads so that is how I went about it.

In kind of a way its emotional blackmail. Now I am not saying the author would have said anything or anyone else for that matter but it was just easier than OMG seeing a thread about you copying. Again I am not saying it would have happened but worth it for me to spend the money and be done thinking about it. Now is that not stupid or what.

Maybe as a forum we have to step back and think why it is coming to this. What I love about this thread is there is no finger pointing or calling out, just a discussion about the topic.

Now as far as copying exactly as the tut is maybe we have to realize the different degrees of skill of all lampworkers. Maybe less skilled lampworkers are going to copy and sell their beads so they can afford more glass to keep going in the craft so they can get to the level of being unique. Perhaps not, who knows it is up to the individual person but not their peers or the masses to decide. Again as a forum and lampworking community I think there should be less tattling, outing,policing, judging and let people handling their own issues. Worry about your own beads and not everyone elses. Maybe there would be more creative work coming out of it and less emotional conterversy.

I still reitterate my orginal thoughts to just simply add in your promo pages whether or not the consumer can sell the beads or not, its just that simply. Then you are taking emotion out of that whole situation.

Thanks everyone for making this such a great thread.

Jen
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  #90  
Old 2008-12-11, 4:01pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarah_hornik View Post
I just stumbled across an interesting list of quotes this week:
http://quote.robertgenn.com/getquote...63&numcats=345

These are some of my favorites.
(I am making NO implications here whatsoever and have no desire to debate any of these, just sharing them because I think they're interesting.)
A painter is a man who paints what he sells. An artist, however, is a man who sells what he paints.

If they took away my paints I’d use pastels. If they took away my pastels I’d use crayons. If they took away my crayons I’d use pencils. If they stripped me naked and threw me in prison I’d spit on my finger and paint on the walls. ( love that one)

Good artists copy. Great artists steal.

If there is something to steal, I steal it!.



~ Picasso
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