Propane in the House? NO!

[alienscience]

It's K. I got chocolate cheerios...that are quite stale and well deserved.

[Afro1621]

Originally Posted by MikeAurelius

If the garage is attached to the house, that is considered part of the house.

Are there any particular reasons people feel the need to keep the tank inside in or near the studio?

In my case, I keep it at 4ft away from me ´cause the air temp constantly changes and that makes the propane to either expand or contract, and that is reflected on the pressure (same thing happens with tanked O2); It´s happened that I might be torching and suddenly the psi went down to 5 when I inicially set it at 8 so I have to be adjusting it, if it was outside I would not notice it.

[RSimmons]

Originally Posted by Afro1621

In my case, I keep it at 4ft away from me ´cause the air temp constantly changes and that makes the propane to either expand or contract, and that is reflected on the pressure (same thing happens with tanked O2); It´s happened that I might be torching and suddenly the psi went down to 5 when I inicially set it at 8 so I have to be adjusting it, if it was outside I would not notice it.

Sounds like you need to check out your regulators to be sure that they are working properly. You shouldn't see that kind of fluctuation unless you're having really, really extreme temp. changes.

Robert

[lovelight]

I've just moved into a new house and am setting up in the basement. We are in the country and have a big household propane tank. The copper lines come into the house, run along the ceiling of the basement, and split. One goes up to the kitchen stove, the other goes to the furnace in the basement (we have a woodstove upstairs, so the furnace is a rarely used back-up). I was planning to have the gas company come and split the line again and pipe the gas over to my side of the basement where I could have an on/off valve and attach my regulator.

After reading most of this thread and checking out the very helpful link posted by Dale on setting up a basement studio, I now realize that it's likely that the household PSI will not be high enough for my Bethlehem PM2D. I've just called the gas company to confirm, and am waiting for a call back. Assuming that is the case, I'm left with no option but to put a small tank outside a window and bring in a line. My question is (forgive me if it's naive) if I do that, and my regulator is attached to the tank where I can't see it from inside.... how do I monitor the tank/pressure?

Any other ideas?

Thank you in advance!

[Role]

Originally Posted by lovelight

My question is (forgive me if it's naive) if I do that, and my regulator is attached to the tank where I can't see it from inside.... how do I monitor the tank/pressure?

Any other ideas?

Thank you in advance!

First off, find out your inside line pressure.
It is very likely you can tee off the feeds to the house
with no problems.

Secondly, there should be no need to monitor your
regulator.

Tank pressure stays at 100 PSI until the tank is empty
and your regulator should not fluctuate once you set it
to your normal pressure.

Your biggest concern is lack of accessibility to the tank
valve in an emergency.

In a basement studio (which is the very worst place to use
heavier than air flammable gasses like propane) you really
need to have the tank plumbed in through the wall with a
hard shut off valve between the wall and your torch.

Good luck.

[Dale M.]

Two points I would like to clarify...

Propane is temperature sensitive, the pressure in tank will go up and down with change in temperature.... BUT tank temps have to be down to about -20° f. before you really have loss of pressure. Note temperature /pressure scale relationship in link below.

http://www.flameengineering.com/Propane_Info.html

Second it is NFPA (National Fire Prevention Association) code to have a shut off valve at end of "hardline" (before rubber hose to torch). Also most city, county and states subscribe to theses codes. Code also require a hard shut off where hardline enters building.

Dale

[Role]

Originally Posted by Dale M.

BUT tank temps have to be down to about -20° f. before you really have loss of pressure.
Dale

[destinysparkles]

Can someone please advise me if I am setting up my studio safely. I am very happy to have found a landlady who approved my using the propane tank outside my kitchen window and running the hose into the kitchen where the torch will be set up using an oxygen concentrator. This idea I got out of Jim Kervin's book, page 26. The landlady is cleaning out her garage and when she finishes, will rent me out the garage to set up my studio, but until she cleans it out, I have her permission to set up in the kitchen.

I have used an oxy/propane torch previously and am very cautious to check the hose for leaks with a soapy brush when putting on a new propane tank. There is a large window and also a door that I can open to change the air every hour or so. I have placed the propane tank into a metal garbage can with a lid and have place the garbage can into a hole in the ground that I dug so the hose can run outside through the window and be hooked up to the propane tank outside in the metal can.

I will now order a 25 foot hose so it can go out the window, and I am writing to ask for any advice on the safety of this setup.

Questions: In Jim Kervin's book and it says I should drill holes into the garbage can. It also quotes in that book the various amounts of pressure that a propane tank will go to when placed in various temperature. If it is about 80 degrees outside, will it be safe to use the propane tank?

Will rain water rot the hoses?

Are there any other safety issues that anyone can see with this arrangement? I called Wale Apparatus and the salesperson there advised that it sounds very safe, but if anyone has more comments, I would appreciate hearing what you have to say.

Thank you sincerely for any input, Sincerely, MC

[Dale M.]

Something you may not have thought about and it is not related to fuel.... Glass when heated improperly can shatter and flying shards go "everywhere"...Have you considered that glass chips and shards and dust may contaminate your food preparation areas and there for be ingested by anyone where food has been prepped in kitchen... Some of the glass dangers are not always just "fuel" or "ventilation" but can effect out health in ways we are not aware of or never imagined...

Dale

[destinysparkles]

How does a person attach a shut off valve near to the torch in addition to the shut off valve that is on the propane tank? I am planning to run the hose through my kitchen window to the tank which is securely placed in a metal garbage can into a hold dug into the ground so it can't move.

How would I place another shutoff valve on the hose? Where would I get it from?

Should I disconnect the hose from the tank after every use? Thank you for your help.

I have worked on the torch for 6 years and understand that glass shards go flying everywhere; I wipe off my kitchen counters, but where I prepare my food is a counter not near to the torch. I won't be ingesting glass.

Please can you tell me if I need to drill holes in the metal garbage can? Can you please explain the idea of a second shutoff valve? Thank you kindly for your help!

[Role]

Originally Posted by destinysparkles

which is securely placed in a metal garbage can into a hold dug into the ground so it can't move.

This is a bad idea.

Propane is heavier than air, if your garbage can is in the ground
the propane can form an explosive pool around the tank that has
no place to escape.

The garbage can is meant to remain at ground level.

The point of the holes in the garbage can is to allow the propane
to safely dissipate into the air if it leaks.

You never want the tank to be enclosed without ventilation and you
especially do not want it to be below ground level.

Should I disconnect the hose from the tank after every use?

You can use quick connect fittings for welding hoses and just disconnect
the hose when you are through using the torch.

Such as these:

Western Quick connects

(This is the brand I use)

[Role]

For storing your tank, this thread may be helpful.

http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=95409

(Scroll down a little to the part about the storage box.)

[destinysparkles]

Dear Cave Dweller: Thank you so much! All that information is exactly what I needed! Now I can proceed safely! Sincerely, MC

[Fizzgig]

I have a betta torch and get various responses about safety issues regarding how the hoses attach to the torch (some men have been dumbfounded by it, in fact!). Can I get the ideal setup for this torch please? Currently I have the screw clamps on and have been told by numerous people well established in gas fields (welders, propane company...) that it was fine then I came here and read they are not.

I live in the far north and would prefer my tanks inside but have them out and wonder about temperature issues coming up, too. This will be my first winter in this climate doing this.

Maybe someone can give me a list on the ideal hoses for setup too that would go through the wall instead of the open window like I have now. I hate these green & red hoses, they frighten me...they seem just not secure enough! I have cats and dogs and clumsiness about. I have access to all the supplies and people needed to install, I just want to be able to tell them what to do and get back to making stuff.
Also been off for awhile and re-doing things before my new shiny products arrive to work with!

Thanks for advice.

[Dale M.]

The tanks outside are fine..... The only issue is with propane if temps get down to about -20°f. the pressure drops off to almost nothing....

Clamps are ok... The worm type tend to cut into the hoses, the full circle clamp type with screw and nut are better though....

Metallic plumbing for oxygen will require all of the plumbing to be done with piping that absolutely free from any oils or grease.... Oxygen under pressure when exposed oil or grease tend to spontaneous combust (explode)....

In most areas its against most building codes to bring rubber hose through walls... So metallic piping is a must....

There is nothing wrong with the red and green hoses, they have been used in welding industry forever....And are probably the most robust hose available to connect torches to fuel and oxygen sources... Only requirement is you need to use "T" grade hose as it is rated for use with **all fuels**.... "R" rated hose is rated for acetylene only and will deteriorate faster when exposed to propane...

What you need to do is secure hoses up off floor and under bench where they can not get tangled in animals legs and feet (animals should probably not be in studio anyway) and also not in around your feet.... Torch should be secured to bench top, so it can not be pulled off bench if one does get tangled in hoses...

So much ready written, it just takes a little research and dedication to find safe setup for your studio... Most of what is said is just safe and sensible thinking...

IF you started at initial message in this thread ( #1) and got all the way to here (#525).... Everything has been pretty much stated....

Dale

[Fizzgig]

All these years and you don't already have a cut+paste of links to all the safe materials needed to safely set up with a betta?

Ok.

I'll figger it out.
Because all I've found in all these pages is a buncha bickering and drama to be honest. Oh ya and totally unrealistic situations. As well, I've seen people tell us (you, even) not to believe what you see in the books - by the artists and teachers themselves, who have tanks under their desks and such.

And the animals live in the house with me, sit in the window the pipes come through, even. They aren't around when torch is on but like the wires behind the tv, I don't always see what the little dummies are up to.

The oxygen is just coming in the house and the propane may need to for some of the winter too according to your reply


Darn!

The hoses at the torch look all cracked and it just freaks me out. I think of a cat biting into one and that being that!

I'm less freaked out by a small child climbing a 3 story building to play with my tanks or lightening striking it, however.

*rolls eyes*

[Fizzgig]

Ok, how about this question:

Can I hook up to a propane "pig" (big tank outside) It is already running to the house but we don't use it... We could...

Can the regulator that's set for a tank used for the home be used for the torch basically is my question?

[Dale M.]

Yes the fuel and regulator at the PIG is useable.... Regulator output is probably set for about 13 IW (inches water) or 1/3 psi... Its same pressure those using utility/residential natural gas is supplied at...

You might also try looking here... Everything I have ever written about that is of any use is here....

http://www.artglassanswers.com

More specifically....

http://www.artglassanswers.com/forum...3dd248752faada

And IF I were to cut and paste for everyone the forum would be 10,000 pages longer, and the days would not be long enough for me to fulfill every request.... At least you might try the search function....

Dale

[Fizzgig]

You didn't HAVE to be the one to answer me, either.

I have searched.

No worries, I have a guy now. I'll post pics of my setup when done. And happily answer questions anyone may have.

Please do not reply to my inquiries anymore, Dale. I have no desire to put anyone out or make your day sour.

I'll simply ignore you from now on, anyway.

[Fizzgig]

...I asked a very specific question about precise materials for a specific torch set up.

[Dale M.]

You didn't put me out.... I was just saying your request are actually pretty generic, have been asked at least a dozen times before, and if people didn't at least try to search I ( an other responders) would just be typing the same answers over and over....

Evey question you can probable think of that is glass, studio, or safety related has already been asked, you are just new so you don't realize most of this pretty old hat to 95% of the people who inhabit the forums....

Dale

[artsyuno]

Any 2 stud oxy/propane torch is going to have the same set-up requirements. There's no difference between a beta, a minor, a bobcat, etc.