Tutorial copyright limitations

[upinflames]

Originally Posted by Ashtonjewels

When you buy a used book, the price that it's purchased for is based on it's physical condition vs. the current market value of it's content. When you buy a pdf tutorial, the condition of that pdf doesn't change. It's not in "like-new" condition or "used" condition, or "okay" condition. When you sell it to someone else, the copy that you MAKE and SELL to them won't have scuffed up covers, bent pages that were once used to serve as crude bookmarks, or even little coffee stains. Books gain value too if they become collectible. I'm pretty sure PDFs will not. If reselling PDFs is perfectly okay, what will happen if everyone starts doing it as soon as they download and printed?

If this is going to be seen as an okay thing to do in this community, I request only one thing. . Please don't sell them for less than their market value because if you do, other people will too. We'll see this type of thing in the garage more and more because people need money really bad right now. If copies of my tutorials are sold in the garage at half their price, I will have to drop my price too in order to compete against the sales of unauthorized copies of my own material and so will everyone else that writes PDF tutorials.

This is exactly why I will not buy tutorials from anyone but the author nor sell the ones that I have purchased.

Lydia, I have purchased two of your tutorials and am waiting (quite impatiently ) for your newest one.

I feel that what I purchased from you is non-transferable and oh-so-worth the price. I would have paid double what you charged.

Thank you, btw, for sharing your knowledge and talent with us. Your beads are breathtaking.

[Ashtonjewels]

Originally Posted by Damselfly

Personally, I would never sell anything I planned to keep (hell, I don't plan on selling any tut I've bought), but I can see your point, Lydia.

But if it's a use thing, like new vs. scratch and dent, then what about the presses I have that have only been used a dozen times, yet are in pristine condition? I would still have to sell those at a loss, or else there's no incentive to buy them from me.

I would hope that no one who buys a tutorial would have to sell them just for the money. They're not that expensive, so hopefully if you bought it, you have it to spend.

I doubt this is going to be a huge trend. Too many people would rather buy from the artist directly anyways.

I see what you're saying, but most presses hold their value really well unless they are an extremely unpopular style so you'd likely be able to get back at least 70% of your investment. When we sell used tangible items, we always do so at somewhat of loss, especially if that used item isn't something that other people want. Another point is that if you sell a press, you no longer have it. It's gone. Tutorials on the other hand can be claimed as gone, but there's no proof that someone actually deleted their copy. Please don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that anyone responding in this thread would be dishonest, I'm just saying that there is no way to prove that the original file was actually deleted. That is why I think that digital media is different from things that are made of plant, animal or mineral.

I've had people email me about wanting to sell their tutorial because they couldn't afford the glass or they felt that it was above their skill level. I'm fine with that. They respected my intellectual property enough to ask me that and I was grateful.

[Ashtonjewels]

Originally Posted by upinflames

This is exactly why I will not buy tutorials from anyone but the author nor sell the ones that I have purchased.

Lydia, I have purchased two of your tutorials and am waiting (quite impatiently ) for your newest one.

I feel that what I purchased from you is non-transferable and oh-so-worth the price. I would have paid double what you charged.

Thank you, btw, for sharing your knowledge and talent with us. Your beads are breathtaking.

Thank you so much!!! See, this makes me want to finish this cluster**** that I'm working on even more. I really appreciate your kindness!

[Kalera]

Originally Posted by likes to make glass stuff

Right, Kalera, they are tangible. I've read enough to see that electronic files are considered tangible-they have to be in order to be able to be copyrighted, which they most certainly can be.

An argument here has been that tutorials are intangible, therefore they cannot be resold. If they are intangible, they can't be copyrighted...and the whole point is moot.

That would be true of how most people perceive "tangible" and "intangible". But the legal definition of "tangible" vs. "intangible" is different. Legally, copyrighted material is "intangible" because it's the intellectual content, not the physical item, that is copyrighted.

[artic^wolf]

I think you may be mistaken on that Kalera. It is the expression of the idea that is copyrighted, not the idea itself.

http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.pdf


What Works Are Protected?
Copyright protects “original works of authorship” that are
fixed in a tangible form of expression. The fixation need not
be directly perceptible so long as it may be communicated
with the aid of a machine or device.


What Is Not Protected by Copyright?
Several categories of material are generally not eligible for
federal copyright protection. These include among others:
• Works that have not been fixed in a tangible form of
expression (for example, choreographic works that have
not been notated or recorded, or improvisational speeches
or performances that have not been written or recorded)

[upinflames]

Originally Posted by Ashtonjewels

Thank you so much!!! See, this makes me want to finish this cluster**** that I'm working on even more. I really appreciate your kindness!

No pressure, honest!

It's obvious that you have spent a lot of time and energy on what you share with us and I think that is worth something, to say the least.

Honestly, I wouldn't sell any tutorial that I've purchased. When I purchase, read and practice the techniques that you all selflessly share with us, I feel like it's a class that I've taken. I can't imagine trying to sell that to someone else.

That's just me, though. I don't make a judgement here, it's just my feeling about it.

[maren]

Mary, this is one of the things that makes me a lot more comfortable buying a book.

Quite honestly (for me), I prefer books on paper. I can read those where and when I want.
And I'm happy to pay extra for that and I'm a book hog. (FWIW I'm not likely to resell either)

[miahawk]

the copyright office itself has contributed to the confusion over the word tangible, as they use it in 2 ways in title 37 http://www.copyright.gov/title37/202.html:

"tangible medium of expression", as in:

fixed in a tangible medium of expression, as follows:

(A) For a motion picture, filming of the motion picture must have commenced;

(B) For a sound recording, recording of the sounds must have commenced;

(C) For a musical composition, at least some of the musical composition must have been fixed either in the form of musical notation or in a copy or phonorecord embodying a performance of some or all of the work;

(D) For a literary work being prepared for publication in book form, the actual writing of the text of the work must have commenced;

(E) For a computer program, at least some of the computer code (either source code or object code) must have been fixed; and

(F) For an advertising or marketing photograph, the photograph (or, in the case of a group of photographs intended for simultaneous publication, at least one of the photographs) must have been taken.

and "physically tangible"

(b) Definitions. For the purposes of this section:

(1) The best edition of a work has the meaning set forth in §202.19(b)(1). For purposes of this section, if a work is first published in both hard copy, i.e. , in a physically tangible format, and also in an electronic format, the current Library of Congress Best Edition Statement requirements pertaining to the hard copy format apply.

so, "tangible medium of expression" means set in form, or partially set in form regardless of how or where it's stored, and "physically tangible" is used as a synonym for "hard copy".

[jack]

Originally Posted by midniteburner

Jack, it looks like you opened a can of worms with this thread. Well, let me give you a few words of advice about the people here on this forum...

The people who have given you support are actually in the planning stages of the witch hunt. They are secretly egging you on with their encouraging words.

So...now you are saying "what's a witch hunt?" I will be more than happy to explain this shindig to the best of my ability.

Newbie Nancy pisses people off with a thread or action. The community retaliates by holding this so called "witch hunt". Oh and they laughing while everything is being planned too.

Everyone cooks lots of quite delectable food, feeds Nancy Newbie tills she weighs approx. 600 lbs. then the real fun begins. They roll her down a hill into a vat of Gorilla Glue and sticks all the wonkies they have saving for years on her!

So...

Sara

Sara,

Wow! Based on what I've heard and witnessed so far, LE is a a friendly & supportive place. My original question (which has been answered) was not mean spirited in any way...it was an honest inquiry. I can't control other people's actions or intentions, but if someone is planning a "witchhunt," sobeit.

[Ruth Nichols]

I think there is validation in many comments. My one lil ole question is.... how many used books have you bought.. from any source?

[lunamoonshadow]

Used books--many.
Used "music downloads" or "burned movies" or "digital books someone has already read" or "photocopies of patterns" or "already installed software"--NOT A SINGLE ONE.

[infinitecharms]

I feel this would be similar to reselling mp3's you have downloaded from Itunes. I don't think Apple would let you resell the mp3's when you are done with them. If you want to resell when you buy tutorials then you should probably buy actual physical copies. When I bought the tutorials I never had the intent to resell when I was done with them.

[JBeads]

I bought a book on how to draw faces. I learned from it and no longer need it as I can now draw faces real good, better than the author actually.

So now it gathers dust on my self. I no longer need it. So I can't sell it as the original author is now out that 15 dollars if I do.

Just how is this above senario any different with these tuts?

Please don't tell me its because you have no idea if I only sell one copy of the pdf or a hundred nor do you know for sure it I have deleted it from my computer. I HAVE no more use for it period. If that is a valid arguement and the authors feel that strongly about being ripped off to that extent, then don't do a pdf.

There are many alternatives, but many people want immediate gratification, including those that are selling. Or so it seems. If its about the money it costs for a printed version, there are very reasonable alternatives to actual publishing, do a google search many come up.

Really, if I can get a 25 dollar printed version of the tut or pay 15 dollars for the pdf, is 10bucks really going to make them any less desirable?

And really what is then stopping someone from copying that 25 dollar printed version and selling that copy off as an original? I can assure you my printer, can and DOES make very real copies that cannot be detected as such with the naked eye.

It really is a no win situation, as seen here, as this topic seems to be rehashed every month or so.

J

Oh and I did sell that book on how to draw faces and I did get the full 15 bucks for it as it was not buggered up. I keep my books in excellent condition. I even store many in a room that is kept at a certain humidity and temperature. Many are collectible and will fetch much much more than the price on the spine and I fully intend on making a big profit from them in the future.

So now I ask you, is that wrong? If not, why? Should the original author not get to share in that winfall? If not why?

[Moth]

JBeads, I think it has been stated exhaustively that there is absolutely no issue on any side of reselling a used book. People on both sides of this discussion agree that point. I have both sold and purchased plenty of used books in my time. For me, as I said before, that whole argument about respecting the author by not reselling books doesn't hold water. This isn't about that, I agree with your absolutely on that point.

Let's put it this way:

You purchase an AC/DC album on CD. You listen to it. Then you find out you've grown past it and don't want it anymore. You put the AC/DC album in your yard sale, or on eBay and resell it. Amen...good for you. Rock out.

You purchase an AC/DC MP3 on Amazon.com. You download it to your PC, then put it on your MP3 player. You listen to it for a few months and then decide you have no use for it anymore. Does that mean you can delete the MP3 from your player and your PC and resell the MP3 to someone else?

After all, you aren't using it anymore, you aren't keeping a copy. Can you resell that digital file?

No, you can't. Not legally anyway. PDF files....MP3 files...what's the difference?

MP3 files....a used book...BIG difference.

PDF files...a used book...SAME difference? That is the question.

If you want to resell the files, resell the files. I'm certainly not going to stop you; I don't have the financial OR emotional interest in doing so.

But can't we at least recognize that there is a difference between a digital file (MP3/ PDF/ DOC) and a physical object (BOOK/ CD/ 8 TRACK TAPE/ MAGAZINE)?

Because there IS a difference.

~~Mary

[Moth]

And you can't apply software to the same standards as a data file. Software performs a function...data files do not. They can't stand alone, they need an application to run/open them. I'm not positive that I understand that whole differentiation either...but I do know that there is a difference between the two. Someone else in this thread touched on that a bit too.

[Moth]

And you know what else, I'm getting kinda touchy about people thinking tutorial authors want to control this reselling of tutorials just to protect their bottom line.

Actually, it has nothing to do with the money because frankly, if someone goes out and buys a discounted, passed-along pdf file, they were never going to purchase the full priced tutorial directly from me to begin with. I don't consider this a lost sale, I consider it one other person who got the jellyfish tutorial who might not have gotten it otherwise. As someone else mentioned, perhaps they will enjoy it enough to give my next one a chance at full price. If it was about the freakin' money I wouldn't recommend people purchase the book so they can resell it. I lose money TWICE that way. LOL

No...the reason I personally care about this issue is because that jellyfish tutorial's conception is MINE. I made that. I labored over it. I created it and worked really hard on it and it kinda stings to think people just want to toss it around willy nilly.

Nobody likes to feel like yesterday's newspaper. That is the only dumpling I have in this pot. I've already said numerous times that I don't have a problem with you selling the tutorials. But please don't take my participation in the threads that talk about the legal aspects of this issue as a manic bid to protect my sales. It's not. I'm trying to understand this just like everybody else and it is getting increasingly difficult.

~~Mary

[Kalera]

In terms of whether people want used items... yes, when I am shopping for something, for instance a press, and I have decided to buy it, if I happen upon a used version for less than new price, I will buy it and be grateful that I saved a bit of money. I think most shoppers are that way. If I did not happen to find a used one, I would have paid full price for a new one. I rarely buy things used that I was not in the market for to begin with.

[Rob]

Originally Posted by Kalera

I rarely buy things used that I was not in the market for to begin with.

Neither do I. If I do buy unexpected items used its always because I would have looked into buying that item if I had known about it, had looked into buying one and decided I could not, or find them at a fantasy sort of good price.

I do not think that these sort of sales really have impact on this conversation. The real question is would I buy a second hand college education? How about a second hand class? Any one want to sell off the early classes you took??? Anyone take a class never use anything you learned in it and want to sell it all off?

Really a tutorial in pdf format is just information. That is really bottom line what the product is, the chance to read the directions and look at the pictures.. Doesn't really matter if you delete the file, unless you can delete the knowledge you're still keeping a copy of what was paid for. the knowledge of how to do something.

I want to watch people delete that knowledge!

[lunamoonshadow]

Originally Posted by Rob

Neither do I. If I do buy unexpected items used its always because I would have looked into buying that item if I had known about it, had looked into buying one and decided I could not, or find them at a fantasy sort of good price.

I do not think that these sort of sales really have impact on this conversation. The real question is would I buy a second hand college education? How about a second hand class? Any one want to sell off the early classes you took??? Anyone take a class never use anything you learned in it and want to sell it all off?

Really a tutorial in pdf format is just information. That is really bottom line what the product is, the chance to read the directions and look at the pictures.. Doesn't really matter if you delete the file, unless you can delete the knowledge you're still keeping a copy of what was paid for. the knowledge of how to do something.

I want to watch people delete that knowledge!

PERFECT analogy!
(just like a downloaded mp3 is music to *listen* to vs. a CD to own & a downloaded movie is to *watch* vs a DVD to own!)

[Pyro Beads]

Personally I wouldn't feel right selling a PDF file. I like the fact that I can buy a tutorial and have it emailed to me so I can start useing it almost right away. I always copy it to a disk and I also print and bind a copy of it. Then the CD goes into the safe (if I remember to do that right away) so in case of fire or anything like that. I like knowing that if I mess up my printed copy I have that file to print another one for myself. (It never even crossed my mind to sell that file to any one.) I think that is one reason why I buy them. The price is GREAT!!! And if I had to pay more for the CD or Printed book, plus shipping and had to wait a week or so to get it... I really don't think I would buy it. But that's just me.

I do buy used books, cd's, movies..... I also sell books, cd's and movies I don't want any more. But to me a PDF tutorial is not something I would sell. It just wouldn't seem right to me. Now if I just didn't want it any more I would either just throw it or ask the person who wrote it if I could give it to some one... and if they said no I would respect that.

[Frogsongstudio]

Anyone remember Napster?

Well Napster used to allow the download of music to anyone who wanted it. Then they allowed it to be shared between other people. Know what happened? They were sued and shut down.

So if it's legal to download electronic files, ie music, and then distribute them to anyone you want to.... why did Napster get shut down?

[Rudy]

It's my understanding that it is legal to download the music, just ILLEGAL to make copies & share. It's the "sharing" that makes it illegal.

[Frogsongstudio]

Thank you Rudy.

So the sharing or selling of those downloaded music files, that you paid for to download, is illegal.

But if you went out and bought a CD from say.... Walmart, it is legal for you to turn around and sell that one copy in which case you would no longer have it.

I think this would be the same for electronic tutorials verses tutorials in book form or on a CD.

[irishwillow]

I agree with Mary Lockwood.
I don't know about US, but in Australia, ideas are covered by copyright law. It is illegal to sell someone else's idea without their express permission. That is what a tutorial is...someone's idea. A book or DVD is an object which can be bought or sold, you are not selling purely the idea AND a book or DVD can wear out a PDF file can be resold and resold ad infinitum. It really is very simple.
Susan

[artic^wolf]

Actually Susan, an idea isn't something that is covered under copyright law in Australia, or the US.

http://www.copyright.org.au/informat...n/intro-15.htm

Copyright does not protect ideas, concepts, styles, techniques or information.

For example, if you write an outline of your idea for a TV show, the written text will be protected by copyright and, generally, someone wanting to reproduce it would need your permission. However, someone else could write their own script, using your ideas, without necessarily infringing your copyright. Copyright would only be an issue if someone copied or paraphrased an important or distinctive part of your written work (see “Infringement”, below).

[Moth]

intellectual property

edited to add:

Here is what wikipedia has to say about intellectual property:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property

[irishwillow]

Sorry, I should have been more specific...obviously a lot of people can have the same idea, but when it is used in its' entirety, ie a pdf file where all of it has been written by somebody else, not concepts used and then adapted, it would be covered by copyright. Sueing isn't something we do a lot of here in Australia, altho' unfortunately that is changing a bit. Some of it is that we're a little bit more live and let live, but some of it is that we just couldn't be stuffed. LOL. Copyright does seem to be something we take fairly seriously tho' and even lecturers at Uni get very cranky with students for plageurism etc even in small amounts. I still think my basic principal stands, that you are not buying an object that can wear out when reselling a file over the computer, so the person who writes it could sell it only once and then it could be redistributed constantly...there is no question in my mind that this is wrong and if looked at in a court of law in Australia, would be deemed so. There is nothing to say that someone couldn't pass on this information by showing a friend etc, this would be hard to police and probably be over the top, but would also require some work on the part of the person doing this. It really still seems quite simple to me, you are selling ALL of someone else's hard work which can be done indefinitely, unlike an object which can wear out. Someone else also stated that artisans would stop selling tutes this way if this begins to occur and would seem a little bit like cutting off your nose to spite your face. This community shares so much already in comparison to a lot of other art forms, it would be a shame if people started to try and make a quick buck out of someone elses' hard work and began to ruin the lovely, open sharing that goes on. Remember, "Do unto others..."
Susan

[Donna T.]

I haven't read this whole thread (most of it though) but I do find some similarity in my Simming world.
When I'm not beading I like to play Sims 2. I have all the dvd's and have bought most of them used on Ebay. If I get tired of it (never) I might resell them on Ebay (though I haven't sold my Sims 1 yet)

However, there is a big community of simmers out there very much like the community of lampworkers. Some of these simmers are very creative and make custom content (clothes, furniture, characters) for those of us who want these more realistic items in our game but don't know how to make them ourselves. You know some of these creators by name. You get a feel for them and their style. Some charge for their creations and I have bought some.

Now, I might resell my dvd game, but I would never resell files that I downloaded from a paysite. If I stop playing Sims then I will delete my custom content files out of respect for the creators.

There's a co-relation here somewhere but I'm in the bed sick and this is as far as my brain will take me. What was the question again?......