Lampwork Etc.
 
TrueDesign

LE Live Chat

Enter Live Chat

No users in chat


The Flow

Caber Light


 

Go Back   Lampwork Etc. > Library > Tips, Techniques, and Questions

Tips, Techniques, and Questions -- Technical questions or tips

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #31  
Old 2006-04-20, 5:35am
Wonker's Avatar
Wonker Wonker is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 31, 2005
Location: Roswell/Waynesboro, Ga
Posts: 685
Default

[quote=Steph'sBeadCorner]Remember, there is no wasted time at the torch[/b]. Even if you work on something for an hour and then ruin it, even if everything you make is fit only for water annealing, every minute you spend on the torch makes you a better glassworker. I often hear "I don't get much time on the torch so I have to make every minute count, that's why I asked first..." If that's your mindset, change it. Clean it out. There's no benefit to thinking that way - you have to "waste time" at the torch in order to improve.

Truer words were never spoken (at least for me). Nothing is a waste of time. Willingness to fail and not quit is the surest way to success. Every time I sit down and fail to accomplish what I set out to do, I learned something else, probably succeeded at something I wasn't aware I wanted to learn. and I'm still such a newbie.
__________________
Running a Mirage
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 2006-04-20, 10:49am
boroburner's Avatar
boroburner boroburner is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 16, 2006
Location: Vancouver Island
Posts: 377
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonker
Willingness to fail and not quit is the surest way to success.
That is a quoteable, "quote".
B
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 2010-06-11, 10:27am
jaci's Avatar
jaci jaci is offline
Glass-aholic
 
Join Date: Mar 21, 2007
Location: CT, tolland CT
Posts: 4,332
Default

just going through old threads and thought this was worth bumping
__________________
Minor 10lpm Oxy-Con + HH on Propylene . . . . . .

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
hand dyed silk ribbons in many colors!
WASHERS & TOPPERS - layering components for interchangeable glass topper and to use in other jewelry/metalwork.:
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 2010-06-11, 11:10am
alb6094's Avatar
alb6094 alb6094 is offline
I'm kinda biz-EE
 
Join Date: Aug 08, 2007
Location: Arlington, TX
Posts: 3,610
Default

Thanks for bumping this Jaci and thanks to Kalera for starting the thread back when, great advice here from everyone.

Mine:

Don't be afraid to experiment with bead release. Like glass, different releases have different properties. Yes, I know they can be expensive but you can generally get 4 ounces to play with and buy 16 ounces of the one you love later. For me, it was finding two releases with properties I liked and mixing them together 50/50 to get the release that suited me best.

Give yourself a break. Not every painter in the world is Picasso, not every writer is Hemingway. They did what they did because they loved what they did. Do you love glass? If you do then nothing else matters.
__________________
Astrid


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
*
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
*
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 2010-06-11, 11:48am
Lorraine Chandler's Avatar
Lorraine Chandler Lorraine Chandler is offline
Salt Box Beads
 
Join Date: Oct 23, 2005
Location: Heading to Paradise
Posts: 4,161
Default

Use the SEARCH button at the top of this page in the red bar. I can spend hours researching and that search button makes it easy to do on this forum.

There are literally volumes of info here. I put on classical music grab a cup of hot tea or coffee and away I go.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 2010-06-11, 1:24pm
SilverRiverJewelry's Avatar
SilverRiverJewelry SilverRiverJewelry is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 15, 2009
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,035
Default

If you've never done this before take a beginners class! I took a class for $85 because I didn't know if I was going to like it and didn't want to spend a fortune on stuff until I knew if I liked it. I knew I was hooked within 5 minutes lol but it was worth the $85 because the basics were clearly explained and I at least had an idea of how things worked. After that its pretty much just practice and research and practice some more.
__________________
Sonja

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 2010-06-11, 2:16pm
TBC Beads TBC Beads is offline
Bead Crone
 
Join Date: Apr 01, 2010
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 434
Default

Excellent thread! I've been feeling kind of frustrated lately, and this helps a lot. My two new mottos: "Process not product" and "There is no wasted time at the torch".

Thanks for bumping, Jaci!
__________________
Pam
"I'm like a lizard. I need something warm beneath me, or I can't digest my food." -Santana
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 2010-06-12, 6:05am
GlassPuppy's Avatar
GlassPuppy GlassPuppy is offline
Can't you see I'm busy???
 
Join Date: May 05, 2007
Location: Asheville, NC
Posts: 120
Default

Plan your worksurface so that your glass, tools, and frit are organized so that you never have to reach across the flame.

Be aware of where your hands are at all times.

Do not allow distractions - pets, children, husbands, loose papers, TV etc. etc. in your studio - pay attention!!

This all sounds rather scary, but learning good habits in the beginning will make your life in glass so much more relaxed later on!!
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 2010-06-12, 9:52am
NMLinda NMLinda is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 21, 2008
Location: Herndon, VA
Posts: 867
Default Take a little time to learn about safety!

You only get one pair of eyes and one set of lungs in life - protect them. Be sure to get lampworking-specific eyewear (such as AUR92 or Phillips 202 glasses for soft glass). Never torch without them. Hot glass emits harmful IR and UV rays that you can't see, and produces an annoying sodium flare that you can. Unlike sunglasses, these glasses are specifically designed to filter out these three types of rays and will help protect you from eye issues and damage associated with exposure.

Also never torch without adequate ventilation. The latter takes a bit of research to understand, but is so critical to your overall health. The torch produces spent combustion products very similar to your car's exhaust - not something you want to breath. It isn't difficult to install the right ventilation for your work area, just takes a little planning (lots of good info here on LE and other boards). If you're eager to get started while you do that planning and research, the best option is to work outside with a fan pulling the fumes away.

Never store a BBQ size propane tank indoors! If it ever leaks (and they can), you could be in a lot of trouble..... Up to two small 1lb canisters is legal in most areas, however.

Have a fire extinquisher close by and something for burns

The first book you should buy as a newbie is "More than you ever wanted to know about glass beadmaking" by James Kervin. In addition to basic lampworking techniques, it has the best chapters on how to set up your work area and on safety that I've seen published. It will help you understand why the right eye protection is important, will give you basics on ventilation so that the info you can find here on LE will make more sense, and will answer many questions on how to set up your torch.

And to all newbies, welcome!

Linda
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 2010-06-13, 7:59am
ben david ben david is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 19, 2010
Posts: 69
Default

Here are some tips that I found carried over nicely from furnace glassblowing to torch work.

1) Where is the heat?
That is the essential question. How is the heat distributed in your glass? Ask this question first whenever you hit a snag.

2) Plan your moves.
This relates also to organizing your workspace. In furnace glassblowing, you have to plan what steps are done on the pipe, and what finish steps are done after transferring the piece off the pipe. Same thing for torch work - what steps are necessary to block out the form, then add detail? When, where, and how will additional material go on?

Want to preserve detail while working on another area of the piece? - see question 1 above.

3) Keep a sketch/record book.
-Sketches are where you plant and nurture germinating ideas. They are NOT drawings, you do not have to know how to draw to do them.
-Records are how you learn your equipment and fine-tune your annealing. Don't go by memory and guessing. Write down time, temperature, and results.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 2010-06-14, 6:31am
neagle's Avatar
neagle neagle is offline
Peerless Thread Killer
 
Join Date: Jul 20, 2007
Location: Mt. Chokula
Posts: 1,148
Default

What a great thread full of wonderful tips. I can't stress the SLOW DOWN tip enough. I got much better shapes and ends on my beads once I slowed down.

Also, if you really like an unusual bead you made, write down the recipe you used to come up with it. I didn't do this and I cannot for the life of me remember what I did to come up with a pair of really nice beads, and I haven't been able to duplicate it. I now write them down the next morning in my book.
__________________
Check out my Etsy shop:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 2010-06-14, 10:13am
flyingcorgi's Avatar
flyingcorgi flyingcorgi is offline
Roo ...
 
Join Date: Jan 09, 2008
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 483
Default

Don't be too hasty to "water anneal" a bead that's not going quite right. Unless it is irredeemably nauseating, see if you can think of something else to do with the glass other than what you got. Some of my most creative breakthroughs happened when I had to "try something else" on a failed bead, and wasn't too hung up on what wasn't working.

AND, if it goes further south instead (and much of the time they do!), think of the incredible "fugly" that you'll have to share - even fuglier than it was originally!

This is a corollary to "there is no wasted time at the torch".

Regards,
- Becky in MN
__________________
Mega Minor on 2 lb. natural gas w/ two 8lpm oxycons
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 2010-06-14, 10:32am
kbinkster's Avatar
kbinkster kbinkster is offline
PyronamixK
 
Join Date: Jun 24, 2005
Location: Spatula City
Posts: 4,196
Default

I have a few tips to add:

Make sure that your rods are clean - free of dust and tape/label adhesive or dead rubber band residue.

Always heat up your bead release (on your mandrel) before laying your footprint. If you don't, you will get bubbles coming up into your glass.

The glass likes to follow the heat. Use this fact and gravity to help you get your glass where you want it to go.

Use a graphite marver to smooth the glass, but a metal tool (like a brass shaper or stainless steel spatula) to move the glass. The graphite slides and the metal grips. Quench your metal tools after they touch the glass and dry them off before touching the glass, again. Keep your graphite clean, too. You can wipe it off with a paper towel, and you can polish it with newspaper.
__________________
Kimberly
working glass since 1990 - melting it on a torch since 2002
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 2010-06-14, 10:49am
bousky's Avatar
bousky bousky is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: Huntington Beach CA
Posts: 2,554
Default

For me the biggest lesson is always don't work too hot. Most of my wonky beads are because i turned up the heat to melt something more quickly....and failed to turn it back down. Smearing happens.

Second....Gravity is your friend. I would say I used gravity as my only shaping tool for the first 3 to 5 years. It is still my most effective method of shaping small beads. They want to be round.

Which also reminds me.... do not put you bead in the kiln too hot. Make sure your glass has stopped moving. This is my second most effective way of creating wonky, warped beads. Impatience to move on to the next bead! This would fit the "Slow Down" advice.
__________________
Michelle

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 2010-06-14, 12:47pm
GabiLoraine's Avatar
GabiLoraine GabiLoraine is offline
Pincel de Fuego
 
Join Date: May 18, 2010
Location: Panama city, Panama
Posts: 406
Default

Slow down. Got it.

Thanks guys! Loving this thread.
__________________
Gabi
Pincel de Fuego

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
/
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
/
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 2010-10-18, 8:28am
Polgarra's Avatar
Polgarra Polgarra is offline
Nikki Haverstock
 
Join Date: Oct 10, 2010
Location: NW Colorado
Posts: 1,686
Default

Thanks for the great advice, so helpful. I think this thread could help a lot of other newbies.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 2010-10-18, 9:53am
tankgirl73's Avatar
tankgirl73 tankgirl73 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 11, 2010
Location: Chicago West Suburbs
Posts: 71
Default

Thanks to all. I was feeling a little frustrated lately... this thread helped Slow down and get the basics/PPP. Thanks again.
__________________
~~
Tank
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 2010-10-19, 12:38pm
carolinainmymind's Avatar
carolinainmymind carolinainmymind is offline
flight risk
 
Join Date: Oct 05, 2009
Location: Mayberry, USA
Posts: 973
Default

From one newbie to (many) others:

If you buy striking glass (like Moretti Yellow or Red) strike it or label it immediately. If you have an unlabeled variety pack, try to strike anything even remotely clear, just to be sure. Otherwise, you will try to encase somehing using yellow instead of clear.

(um, it looks clear, yea, the yellow tint is probably just a light reflection, can't be yellow- its gotta be clear.........oh, crap.)
__________________
Glenda


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 2010-10-19, 2:44pm
Polgarra's Avatar
Polgarra Polgarra is offline
Nikki Haverstock
 
Join Date: Oct 10, 2010
Location: NW Colorado
Posts: 1,686
Default

I have a newbie question, is there a guide that describes what colors react with Ivory? I haven't found any so I am trying all the combinations to try and figure it out. I know that no torch time is wasted but sometimes it is expensive =(
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 2010-10-19, 4:44pm
Kalera's Avatar
Kalera Kalera is offline
I'm a lilac!
 
Join Date: Jun 09, 2005
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 8,793
Default

A really, really handy little item is Bullseye's Torch Tips; it's Bullseye-specific, but what it does is help give you an understanding of glass chemistry so you can fairly accurately guess what elements certain colors contain. Ivory, for example, contains sulphur, and any glass that contains silver or copper will get a dark line where it touches ivory.
__________________
-Kalera

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
*
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 2010-10-19, 5:42pm
alb6094's Avatar
alb6094 alb6094 is offline
I'm kinda biz-EE
 
Join Date: Aug 08, 2007
Location: Arlington, TX
Posts: 3,610
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbinkster View Post
I have a few tips to add:

Make sure that your rods are clean - free of dust and tape/label adhesive or dead rubber band residue.

Always heat up your bead release (on your mandrel) before laying your footprint. If you don't, you will get bubbles coming up into your glass.

The glass likes to follow the heat. Use this fact and gravity to help you get your glass where you want it to go.

Use a graphite marver to smooth the glass, but a metal tool (like a brass shaper or stainless steel spatula) to move the glass. The graphite slides and the metal grips. Quench your metal tools after they touch the glass and dry them off before touching the glass, again. Keep your graphite clean, too. You can wipe it off with a paper towel, and you can polish it with newspaper.
What I highlighted in bold, excellent point! I swear I avoided stainless steel tools like the plague until I learned to quench, quench, quench. I have a little jar of clean water specifically for quenching, nothing else goes in it. With time and practice you learn how far you can go with a stainless tool and you get a feel for when it's time to quench. I can manipulate so much better and get finer control now, I wish I had known to quench my stainless tools when I first started out (of course when you're still struggling to keep the stuff on the mandrel you don't much worry about fine control but it's still a good technique to practice as you play with the glass).

The other day I was on the torch for 6 hours and turned out 12 focals and was sort of stunned because I can remember a time not long ago when three decent beads in an entire weekend was a major cause for celebration. I know as a newbie in that first year (well, actually, well into the second one too) I really questioned myself - what have I gotten myself into, I suck, I'll never be able to do this, look what she does why can't I do that, yada yada yada.

The point is with practice you will do that, or rather, you'll do yours and they will rock.

Be kind to yourself, give yourself space to learn the language of glass.
__________________
Astrid


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
*
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
*
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 2010-10-19, 6:29pm
houptdavid's Avatar
houptdavid houptdavid is offline
honorary bead lady
 
Join Date: Jan 14, 2008
Location: Mostly the doghouse
Posts: 5,180
Default

Do not try and make a bead first Everyone wants to make a bead, grabs a mandrel and smooshes on some glass. Learn to work your glass in the flame first sans mandrel, keep a pea sized ball on the end, then bigger, then pull a stringer from it. Do this with several different glasses to see how they behave.

Learn to make a disc If you learn how to do a disc bead first you will be able to make nice doughnuts with dimpled ends, you will be able to build hollows and vessels, with no problems (well few)

Buy the cheapest on sale glass to pratice on! Stay away from any silver glass or the more expensive colors, shoot for $8.00 a pound or less. when you feel you can master some of the basics then invest in the more expensive stuff.

Tools are everywhere Open your eyes and look around before investing in specialty lampworking tools, raid the kitchen, go to goodwill, and check harbor freight.
__________________
David
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 2010-10-19, 9:00pm
thatbeadchickie's Avatar
thatbeadchickie thatbeadchickie is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 29, 2009
Location: SoCal
Posts: 417
Default

Very awesome thread!
__________________
Rose
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 2010-10-20, 6:04pm
thatbeadchickie's Avatar
thatbeadchickie thatbeadchickie is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 29, 2009
Location: SoCal
Posts: 417
Default

OK so I took the SLOW DOWN advice today and I cannot believe how much better my torching session went. I was able to do things at the torch today that I have always failed at. THANK YOU GUYS SO MUCH!
__________________
Rose
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 2010-10-20, 6:22pm
jonibird's Avatar
jonibird jonibird is offline
It's about having fun!
 
Join Date: Sep 30, 2010
Location: Arizona
Posts: 552
Default

Thank you so much for your contributions! I sure have a lot to learn!!!!
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 2010-10-20, 6:44pm
scoutycat's Avatar
scoutycat scoutycat is offline
geekitude on two wheels
 
Join Date: Aug 07, 2007
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 678
Default

1) Don't try too much new stuff at once - buying 5 different brands of glass and trying them all in the same bead can be disasterous, and disappointing. Get used to one basic palette, then add stuff. All those pretty silver effects are nice, but you can do tons with plain old color too - and you'll have a better idea what went wrong than when you made that CIM Peace/ DH Ehko/ Effetre purple/ frit covered & Lauscha cased bead that looked perfect but didn't survive. And, when you add stuff, have a way to tell it apart! you know now that the this one is bumpy and that is not, but 6 months from now it won't be so obvious.

2) Everything is about heat control. Everything. The more you know about where the heat is and how much, the better you will be. When you watch someone demo or teach, watch for what they are heating - and ask, if you're not sure. If something is not going right think about where the heat is, and remember that any flowing glass will move towards the heat.

3) Don't worry about what everyone else is doing. It's easy to get overwhelmed by the styles and talent of everyone else, but really what you see is their best work, usually after being developed for a few years. You'll get there, just don't worry about it and do your thing. Trying to be someone or somewhere you're not will just stop you from getting to where yo should be.
__________________
-jen
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 2010-10-21, 9:16pm
myrdlebp's Avatar
myrdlebp myrdlebp is offline
Back to 👊 1
 
Join Date: Jan 26, 2008
Location: HELL
Posts: 1,050
Default

Most defiantly! I'm still having a hard time just zeroing in on "simple" and get it right. I waste a lot of glass and money with my "imagination"!

And I want this thread bumped ↑
__________________
The greatest pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do. - Walter Bagehot
I wanna be a "wild ass bitch in the flames" Thanks Karen H, for that sentence!

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Don't make me cranky, I WILL "chuck a tanty!" a la PerfectDeb

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 2010-10-22, 3:25am
Lisi's Avatar
Lisi Lisi is offline
one day at a time
 
Join Date: Jun 27, 2005
Location: We are MOVING!!!
Posts: 8,319
Default

For brand-newbies?? Oh wow, I wish I could grab them all as they are coming in the door and point them in the right direction! Too many of them these days are starting out blind and missing some very important steps.

My advice to the newest of the newbies - if you haven't done it already, stay away from bead presses, rollers, and other similar tools for a while. Maybe even a long while, like during your first 2-3 months of steady practice. You will thank me later.

It's essential if you want to be a good beadmaker to learn to shape the glass with heat and gravity FIRST and foremost. Your very first tools should be your fingers turning the mandrels and your eyes watching the molten glass. Once you have complete control over making an evenly shaped traditional donut-round small spacer size bead, move on to create larger beads and other shapes. Like adding glass along the mandrel to make a long bead shape. These you will be able to marver into barrels or bicones using a small graphite paddle or mash into oval tab shapes using a handheld BBQ masher style tool.

After you are comfortable with adding glass to the mandrel to make wider footprints and keeping the shapes even, you are ready to play with the press and roller tools. Control of the glass and evenly placed footprints on the mandrels are a must of you are going to have better success with learning to use presses and rollers. Unevenly shaped beads will still be uneven after being pressed or rolled unless they are even to start with.

Get to know the glass and use simple basic tools to start with and the fancy tools come later. Relax, take your time, soak it all in, and have fun.
__________________
You live in a world of money. Money means choices. No money, no choices. Welcome to reality.
Melody (Marlee Matlin) from Switched at Birth

Last edited by Lisi; 2010-10-22 at 3:27am.
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 2010-10-30, 1:49pm
ewschott's Avatar
ewschott ewschott is offline
<–I really do inks!
 
Join Date: Oct 28, 2010
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 43
Default

So when I am making a bead, which I have been shaping in the flame (not going to do that anymore), is this why I get the uneven glass on the mandrel? I pretty sure this is what people meant by words like "wonky".

When you roll the mandrel, do you continue to roll it in the same direction, or do you roll it back and forth (clockwise/counter clockwise) after the glass is on and you are shaping your bead?
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Imagination is a powerful thing!
Thanks in advance! Beth


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 2010-10-30, 2:12pm
houptdavid's Avatar
houptdavid houptdavid is offline
honorary bead lady
 
Join Date: Jan 14, 2008
Location: Mostly the doghouse
Posts: 5,180
Default

PM'ed ya Beth
__________________
David
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 5 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump




All times are GMT -7. The time now is 8:27am.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Your IP: 44.195.47.227