HELP - torch, oxycon & kiln opportunity

CreditRiverArtGlass · #1 2007-02-11, 11:06pm

I'm new to lampworking & am currently using a HH w/ a 7# propylene tank. (I went through my first tank in 17 hours...I kept a tally.... is this normal??? the 17 hours, not the tally keeping, LOL!)

I know for a fact that I'll be continuing on w/ lampworking & figured that by this summer I'll be wanting to upgrade to a better torch setup...& an oxycon over tanked oxygen seems like the way to go.

Anyway...I have come upon the opportunity to purchase a Mini CC torch & a Mobilaire V oxycon (6 PSI / 5 LPM...9k hours) from a friend of a local LE member. I've been doing lots of research & am not so sure that my findings pair these two up very well. You guys seem to know your stuff, so I'm bringing this to you for a solid answer.

IS one single 6 PSI / 5 LPM unit enough for a Mini CC? If not, what torches are?
What oxycon would you recommend for a Mini CC? (or any other under $200 torches out there)

(I want to be able to do all of the great reactive stuff that aren't as possible on a HH.)

If I go for the local oxycon, what's a reasonable price for it?

Anything else I should know or ask?

As far as the kiln goes...it's an Arrow Springs AF99 kiln...might or might not be available. It has a pyrometer, but doesn't have a digital controller...it's brick lined...is it okay w/out the controller? I don't want to have to babysit it. If you have one of these, what do you think of it? (I'm leaning towards brick lining as I'd like to be doing PMC at some point, too.)

TIA for any info/advice!! You guys are fabulous!

squid · #2 2007-02-12, 7:17am

Quote:

Originally Posted by a.design.company

I'm new to lampworking & am currently using a HH w/ a 7# propylene tank. (I went through my first tank in 17 hours...I kept a tally.... is this normal??? the 17 hours, not the tally keeping, LOL!)

I know for a fact that I'll be continuing on w/ lampworking & figured that by this summer I'll be wanting to upgrade to a better torch setup...& an oxycon over tanked oxygen seems like the way to go.

Anyway...I have come upon the opportunity to purchase a Mini CC torch & a Mobilaire V oxycon (6 PSI / 5 LPM...9k hours) from a friend of a local LE member. I've been doing lots of research & am not so sure that my findings pair these two up very well. You guys seem to know your stuff, so I'm bringing this to you for a solid answer.

IS one single 6 PSI / 5 LPM unit enough for a Mini CC? If not, what torches are?
What oxycon would you recommend for a Mini CC? (or any other under $200 torches out there)

(I want to be able to do all of the great reactive stuff that aren't as possible on a HH.)

If I go for the local oxycon, what's a reasonable price for it?

Anything else I should know or ask?

As far as the kiln goes...it's an Arrow Springs AF99 kiln...might or might not be available. It has a pyrometer, but doesn't have a digital controller...it's brick lined...is it okay w/out the controller? I don't want to have to babysit it. If you have one of these, what do you think of it? (I'm leaning towards brick lining as I'd like to be doing PMC at some point, too.)

TIA for any info/advice!! You guys are fabulous!

If you don't want to babysit, then you will either need to add a digital controller to that kiln, or get a different kiln. it will have to be babysat as it is now.

I don't know about running the mini cc torch on that oxycon, but I do know that oxycon will run a Nortel Minor torch, which you can find for about $160 to $170.

Good luck!

kbinkster · #3 2007-02-12, 1:21pm

The Mobilaire is a good machine. At 9,000 hours, it should have some life left in it. As for cost, I wouldn't pay as much for it as a newly fully reconditioned concentrator.

As far as running it on a Mini CC, it will run it, but not with as much thrust as something with a little more pressure. The more thrust you have to a MIni CC flame, the better - to keep ignition further off the face of the torch, to keep it from overheating as much. But, still, it will give you a flame suitable for soft glass bead making.

I recently tested a Bobcat on 5 LPM at about 9 psi and posted my results on a different thread. I like the Bobcat/DeVilbiss combination, myself.

Emily · #4 2007-02-12, 4:32pm

It all depends on the price. I can't speak to the concentrator, but you have Kimberly's opinion, and she seems to think it's something that would be worth having if you can get it at the right price.

My reading of what the Carlisle folks have said about the miniCC is that it will run on one 5 lpm concentrator, although the knobs are likely to get hot. If you want to, you could always call Carlisle and ask. The person I'd call would be Chris Camac (that's a he-Chris, not a she-Chris). Carlisle's phone # is (800) 922-1167. They're in New Jersey. Think of it as an upgradeable torch. Add a second concentrator when you have the money, and you have a hotter torch than you would if you bought a Minor.

Arrow Springs kilns are very well respected. I'm assuming that the kiln has an infinite switch controller on it, as well as the pyrometer. Babysitting a kiln is not that much of a hardship. It's doable, if you have to. Anyway, assuming the kiln is in good shape, it's a good kiln. I was looking at the Arrow Spring website today (trying to see if they had on-line directions for a friend who's having trouble programming hers), and their controllers are $425. They're stand-alone, so you could buy one and plug it in right away. Of course you'd have the option of buying a controller from somebody else, too.

Bottom line is that it sounds like these are decent pieces of equipment, if they're in good condition (and it sounds like you think they probably are), and if they're what you want. Price is going to be the question. Do remember that you're probably saving on shipping (not sure where you are, but most places you'd be paying an extra $40-50 each for shipping the concentrator and the kiln).

Good luck with your decision.

CreditRiverArtGlass · #5 2007-02-12, 7:54pm

Thanks for your imput, guys. I appreciate it.

& the right price is?? LOL! I see I can get the same model from hobbiesforus.com for around $250 including shipping. They have Devilbiss, too. Reading around here, others have been happy w/ hobbiesforus. (when I want to upgrade, I'll be coming to you, Kimberly! My family is in Littleton, we're there at least once a year...I could pick it up in person!!

)

Kimberly...will using this pair shorten the life of the torch w/ the face overheating & all? So...this torch w/ this oxycon on its own not being completely ideal, is it at least a step up from a HH?? LOL! I know it will be quieter.

Emily...thanks for the phone number. I like your "think of it as an upgradeable torch". I was thinking the same thing...as far as not settling & going for a minor, this seems like a good torch.

As for the kiln...so, w/out the controller, from what I'm reading, this one is too small, even though it's brick lined, to just soak beads in for several hours & just turn off for the night to take care of itself, isn't it? How much babysitting is "babysitting"? From what I'm reading, maybe 90 minutes or so?? That's do-able, all about timing.

Guess I should do a little more research, but any recommendations for a reasonably inexpensive digital controller? How cheap can I get away w/ one?

I can't see paying another $450+ for a controller from Arrow Springs.

If this kiln ends up unavailable, can you guys recommend a good, inexpensive (under $600?) brick lined kiln w/ the bead door & digital controller? (or maybe I'd still have to add the controller for that price) I know the chili pepper & bluebird are both decent priced kilns, but not brick lined. Like I said, I want to be able to do PMC, too. (I know that this subject has been brought up MANY times & I've been reading it ALL, LOL, It's kinda nice to have specific questions answered, though)

Anybody have one they'd like to unload??

Thanks again!

(anyone else?)

Emily · #6 2007-02-12, 8:48pm

Rule of thumb is that your last bead to go into the kiln has to soak 15 minutes at annealing temp for each 1/4 inch of thickness. So a small bead needs an annealing soak of 15 minutes. A one inch bead needs an hour. If you make beads of various sizes, make your bigger beads first, so the biggies will have already been in the kiln for an hour by the time you're ready to finish up, and you can judge annealing time by your little ones.

You also need to do a slow ramp down past the strain point, which is 840 for Effetre. I go from 968 to 800 over 2 hours. Before I had my digital, I used to go watch television, and turn down the controller during commercials. After the kiln hits 800, I turn it off and let it cool by itself. I don't open the kiln till the next morning, and it's room temp by then. I was just at an Open Torch where we used a Chili Pepper that didn't have a digital, and the manual turning-down process took about 2 hours. Other people's opinions may differ.

You'll need to check current prices, but I'd look at the Aim 84BD bead annealer. It's a small firebrick annealer that will also go high enough to fuse and to fire PMC. Get the bead door. You'll have a choice of a couple of different brands of digital controller. The one I have isn't on the market any more, so I don't have a specific recommendation for you. I bought mine directly from Aim, but you should also check Kilnwest, which is a distributor for Aim. Check eBay -- once in a while Kilnwest puts them up on eBay for a better price than you can get them from Aim.

Also, take a look at www.cdvkiln.com -- Centre de Verre. They have a pretty good selection of kilns -- Jen Ken and some others. I hear they're good folks to deal with, too. You might want to do some shopping around, but that's a good place to start, at least, and maybe ultimately to buy from.

squid · #7 2007-02-12, 9:03pm

check out these guys -

http://twolassesglassclasses.com/goodsindex.html

and this kiln

Jen-Ken AF3P 11/4.5 Kiln w/ 2" Flip Door for Glass Fusing and EASY Bead Annealing

I bought the size smaller than this and still wish I had gotten the bigger one. Jen Ken kilns are great and have a max temp of 1700.

CreditRiverArtGlass · #8 2007-02-12, 10:27pm

Thank you, Emily & Squid. This is really helpful!

Those both look like great options! Looks like the Jen-Ken is a little bit bigger & a little bit less expensive than the Aim.

Would the fiber on the bead door on the Jen-Ken be a problem w/ PMC?? Looks like it's all brick, otherwise.

I'm a little confused by the controller, though...
Two Lasses says: "Orton AutoFire 3 button controller features built in programs - Skip Step, Add Time and Add Temperature capabilities - SIX user programs of up to EIGHT ramp/soak segments each in length - Ramp and HOLD capability - Power Failure Resume feature."

A local glass shop (J Ring) sells them, too & my instructor buys wholesale there, so I might be able to get a better price through her... but their website says this about it: The temperature control is manual with a read-out gauge, so you need to watch the temperature gauge and turn the kiln off manually when you reach the desired temperature. Included with the kiln is a 9" x 11" hexagon shelf. It has a three button computerized Auto Fire Control that allows you to set up as many as four firing programs with eight segments for each program. It also has a 2" wide flip door installed on the side.

Does the MANUAL part from J Ring make sense? They seem to be the same kiln. I thought you're using the digital controller w/ the auto fire control to take care of all that?? Clue me in, please.

(J Ring says: This is a very moderately priced, large sized entry-level kiln suitable for glass fusing, bending, PMC (precious metal clay) and re-annealing of beads

Thanks again!

kbinkster · #9 2007-02-12, 11:20pm

Quote:

& the right price is?? LOL! I see I can get the same model from hobbiesforus.com for around $250 including shipping. They have Devilbiss, too. Reading around here, others have been happy w/ hobbiesforus. (when I want to upgrade, I'll be coming to you, Kimberly! My family is in Littleton, we're there at least once a year...I could pick it up in person!! )

Kimberly...will using this pair shorten the life of the torch w/ the face overheating & all? So...this torch w/ this oxycon on its own not being completely ideal, is it at least a step up from a HH?? LOL! I know it will be quieter.

At the prices they sell their concentrators, I don't believe that they are fully reconditioned. Just to give you an idea of how the prices compare: my prices are low for fully reconditioned 5 LPM oxygen concentrators at $375 plus shipping ($30 to the lower 48 ) - and mine come with a five year warranty.

If you are interested in buying something from them, I would ask what was done to the concentrator and how many hours it has on it. They do have this line on their website, though:

Quote:

There is no need to specify work preformed on units because everything is done to meet or EXCEED manufacturer specifications!

Their units may or may not exceed manufacturer specs - but for how long? So, definitely ask questions.

If a unit has not been fully reconditioned (compressor rebuilt, seive material repoured, valves replaced that need replacing), then it is very important to know how many hours the machine has on it. That way you can have an idea of how long you can expect it to last while putting out good purity before you need to replace it or rebuild it.

I'm not saying not to buy from them, but to be aware of what you are getting and what your future costs may be. It can cost over $150 to recondition a concentrator. If you need to do that soon after buying it, then you would be better off buying a fully reconditioned one to begin with.

If you come to Littleton, let me know!

But, I don't keep any concentrators here other than the ones for my own for personal use. All of the 5 LPM concentrators I sell are shipped directly from my supplier in PA and the Regalia is shipped from the manufacturer in CA.

As for whether using the Mobilaire with the Mini will shorten the life of the Mini, it's hard to tell. Carlisle recommends that you run the Mini with 5 psi, and the Mobilaire definitely has that. But... You can overheat that torch rather easily even on tanked oxygen with more pressure. It's just the nature of that torch - it's easy to overheat. But, no matter what, it will be an upgrade from a Hothead and it will be quieter!

Emily · #10 2007-02-12, 11:41pm

On the J. Ring website, they used the same text as for the kilns above, which are manual, and forgot to take the "manual" paragraph out when they put in the paragraph for the ones that have the digital controller. Yes, it's a mistake.

Centre de Verre has it on sale for $504 and has it in stock, but J. Ring has free shipping (if the kiln's not in stock, shipping might be an issue even though the store is local to you). If you feel like wheeling and dealing, C.R. Loo's website says that they'll beat any price on a Jen Ken, Arrow Springs, or Skutt kiln ("some conditions apply," of course.) So many decisions!

One thing that makes me nuts about the Jen-Kens is that the handles on the bead doors are metal. They get HOT. The place where I do Open Torch has one of the tall bead annealers, and we've had to tape a bunch of fiber blanket over the handle -- inefficient and cruddy-looking. Jen-Ken has been making kilns forever -- you'd think they'd come up with an elegant solution.

Oh -- the inside of the bead door on my little Aim is fiber, and it hasn't done anything exciting when I've fired PMC in there. Come to think of it, the inside of my PMC kiln is fiberboard. If Jen-Ken says the kiln can go safely to 1700, I wouldn't worry about taking it to 1700.

Emily · #11 2007-02-12, 11:44pm

Have you checked out hobbiesforus's feedback on toolhaus.org? It's a site that lets you see feedback that you might not necessarily see on eBay, including feedback that a seller managed to get a customer to withdraw. I know some people here have said they've found interesting results with some sellers. I've had no dealings with hobbiesforus and don't know whether or not there's anything out there to be found, but it's worth checking them out when you're making a multi-hundred-dollar purchase (that will really tick you off it goes wrong).

tasminann · #12 2007-02-13, 3:02pm

I've fired PMC in a brick kiln with a fiber bead door -- no problem whatsoever. I also anneal beads in it and haven't ever had any issues.

I recently got the jen-ken with the bead door from two-lasses-glass-classes on ebay and it is awesome! Yep, the handle does get a bit toasty, but it doesn't bother me much -- I have lots of pieces of fiber blanket around because my glass presses get too hot to move around without them. The orton controller is very easy to program.

CreditRiverArtGlass · #13 2007-02-13, 8:01pm

Thanks for more great responses!

Kimberly...a whole lot of people out there are pretty satisfied w/ hobbiesforus (did you see I started a new "calling all customers" thread? LOL!), they gotta be doing something right. Looks like they're in the retail end of the medical equipment business & the used ones are basically a byproduct...maybe it's that they've cut out the middle man? I don't know. Anyways...a 5 year warranty for something like this sure makes sense & if I weren't just starting out in this little venture, I'd be looking at a higher priced unit anyway, maybe a new one? Someday. Thanks for all of your insight. I'll be sure to ask lots of questions.

Emily...thanks for the continued input on this thread. I appreciate it! I checked out their feedback on toolhaus (thank you!) They have a few negatives & I'm not ignoring those, but some of them seem to be buyers jumping the gun...also sounds like he has a few customer service issues. 99% (7 out of 773 since '03), though...pretty okay to me.

As far as the kiln goes... yes, so many decisions!! LOL! I'm going to talk to my instructor on Thursday, see what she thinks she can do for me w/ J Ring. She has offered to let us buy @ her cost from them & Delphi w/ her wholesale accounts, just need to cover shipping. Cool, huh??

Thanks for your response, Gail. Sounds like PMC is cool w/ this kiln & that I'd better have a potholder on hand for the door handle, huh?? LOL!

Thanks again, guys!! This has been very helpful!

Hayley · #14 2007-02-14, 11:10am

Julie,

There are a lot of valuable info here from the experts so I will just add to that based on my experience. First of all, not all oxycons are created equal. I got my deVilbiss from Kimberly and although it's a 5LPM machine it put out 8.5PSI - your post indicated that you were looking at one that's 5LPM but only put out 6PSI. I would opt for one that has a higher PSI output.

I run my Bobcat on one oxycon and can do everything up to small Boro. I understand that I am not utilizing the torch to its top performance but frankly, it's hot enough for me!

I decided on a Bobcat over a MiniCC based on feedback that the MiniCC's knobs get too hot to touch sometimes while the Bobcat is made to stay cool - not only the knobs but the entire torch remains cool!

For what it's worth - I have the glasshive kiln from Michael Crowley and love it - he builds the kiln and is so helpful!

http://theglasshive.com/BEAD%20ANNEALLERS.html

Hope this helps.

kbinkster · #15 2007-02-14, 1:24pm

Julie,

When you first mentioned getting a concentrator, you said that you would be getting one from a friend of a local LE member and that it was a Mobilaire. Now that you seem to be wanting to buy a concentrator from someone else, and are not going to get that first unit you mentioned, I would suggest getting a DeVilbiss unit. If you aren't getting that torch from him/her, either, I would even suggest looking into different torches, as well, for the same reason Hayley mentioned and then some.

CreditRiverArtGlass · #16 2007-02-14, 2:41pm

Thanks Hayley & Kimberly.

I've definitely decided to not take the Mobilaire & will be going w/ a Devilbiss... THANKS for making it an obvious choice! That's what I needed!

I DID decide to buy their torch, though (it's a good deal)...although you're making me nervous about that decision, Kimberly! LOL! From what I understand, the CC doesn't get AS hot w/ a higher PSI concentrator as it would w/ the Mobilaire... but there are OTHER issues w/ it, too, Kimberly?? Yikes!!! (actually... I JUST read what you wrote about running your candles longer on the CC...the heat radiating back up through the brass body & to the knobs.) Am I going to completely regret getting this torch if I have the Devilbiss? (I work w/ a HH...I know better than to touch it...same idea?? LOL!)

Thanks guys.

bhhco · #17 2007-02-14, 3:31pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by a.design.company

...Am I going to completely regret getting this torch....

Don't sweat it

. If you find you don't like the torch, stick it in the garage sale and sell it (you will probably get more than you paid for it

). Then buy another torch. Or.... like many lampworkers... start a torch collection!

Me

kbinkster · #18 2007-02-14, 5:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhhco

Don't sweat it

. If you find you don't like the torch, stick it in the garage sale and sell it (you will probably get more than you paid for it

). Then buy another torch. Or.... like many lampworkers... start a torch collection!

Me

I agree with Bill. It's not like you are marrying the torch! If you don't like it, you can either sell it or shelve it. So, don't sweat it! But, no matter what, it is an upgrade from the Hot Head (nothing against the HH, I started out on one). You will be melting glass so much faster than before and you will have fun!

It will be an adjustment going from the Hot Head to an oxygen/fuel set-up, so give yourself a chance to get used to it and don't keep going back to the Hot Head if you get frustrated. Stick it out and you'll be glad you did. And, try to run longer candles to try and keep the torch body/knobs as cool as you can.

ETA: Just because I don't like the Mini CC doesn't mean that you won't! But, I think it's important to let you know some of the things that typically go on with them so you know what you can expect (like overheating). I've also given a tip on how to lessen the problem (running long candles). At least this way, you're going into the deal with your eyes open. That's better than getting it, discovering the hot knobs and then going, "Why didn't anyone tell me that this could happen?" It's not that it would have kept you from buying the torch, but it's just one of those things you would like to have known beforehand.

tgslampwork · #19 2007-02-14, 5:52pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by a.design.company

If this kiln ends up unavailable, can you guys recommend a good, inexpensive (under $600?) brick lined kiln w/ the bead door & digital controller? (or maybe I'd still have to add the controller for that price) I know the chili pepper & bluebird are both decent priced kilns, but not brick lined. Like I said, I want to be able to do PMC, too. (I know that this subject has been brought up MANY times & I've been reading it ALL, LOL, It's kinda nice to have specific questions answered, though)

Not less than $600, but has all of the specs you are looking for...including the controller - and their kilns ROCK. www.theglasshive.com. Mike is awesome and super-responsive...and his controllers can be programmed for glass and PMC so it would be easy peasy for you.

CreditRiverArtGlass · #20 2007-02-14, 8:51pm

LOL, Bill...I'd like a torch collection someday!

Kimberly...I ABSOLUTELY appreciate all of your expert input... it's been invaluable information. I got a chance to play on some dual fuel torches just after ONE lampwork class, LOL, @ a Flame-a-thon that the local ISGB chapter held a few week ago...it was a real eye-opener! I never knew that torches could actually be QUIET!! I loved it! & now that I've got many other torch sessions under my belt, I'm very confident that I'll enjoy a hotter torch.

Thanks again for all of your help!

tgslampwork...thanks for the thumbs-up for the beehive...I did check it out when Hayley mentioned it above, but discounted it really quickly because it was above what I wanted to pay. BUT...I WILL take a closer look @ it... a few hundred dollars isn't a big deal when it has everything you could want, huh? Thank you.

CreditRiverArtGlass · #21 2007-02-19, 8:18pm

UPDATE:
a Jen-Ken AF3P kiln w/ 2" flip door is on it's way!!!! Yay! I got it on eBay from Two Lasses Glass Classes, saved around $22 total, which didn't matter... what DID matter was that I would've had to wait 4 to 6 weeks, if I purchased it through their website! Won this one last night & it shipped UPS today!!! It'll be here on Friday! Thanks for the recommendation, Squid! (& thanks for all of the help, everyone else!!)

Next on the list...an oxycon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by squid

check out these guys -

http://twolassesglassclasses.com/goodsindex.html

and this kiln

Jen-Ken AF3P 11/4.5 Kiln w/ 2" Flip Door for Glass Fusing and EASY Bead Annealing

I bought the size smaller than this and still wish I had gotten the bigger one. Jen Ken kilns are great and have a max temp of 1700.

tasminann · #22 2007-02-22, 8:37am

You won't regret it -- the Jen-Ken AF3P is wonderful, and two-lasses-glass-classes are so nice to deal with. I got mine the same way as yours (in stock) and I had it the very next day! Of course I live in Florida, as does Jen-Ken so that made a little difference.

The kiln is packed very well -- the box it comes in is very large. (When I saw mine I thought "what have I done"?). Plan to spend an hour unpacking it, mostly because of the tons of peanuts!

The instructions were very clear -- I had the controller programed in about 5 minutes.

J&M · #23 2007-02-24, 4:29am

We own a cc Mini Torch we run it on two 5-consentrators. The knobs don't get hot enough to not be able to touch. We love our cc Mini. You can run it on 1-5 but you will get better results with 10.

CreditRiverArtGlass · #24 2007-03-02, 12:52pm

Gail... it WAS in a huge box w/ TONS of styrofoam, LOL!! Very well packaged... kids enjoyed helping gather up the styrofoam. It's beautiful

...can't wait to get it set up. Still have to get my studio dug out from under a 12+ year old mess before I can make it usable space...BUMMER... but having this kiln here waiting for me to get it together is making me want to get it done that much faster. The fact that I'm wanting to make larger beads than a fiber blanket will allow (w/out cracking) is even more incentive.

J&M...gotta start w/ 1 concentrator... I'm praying that it'll at least be better than a HH!!! LOL!

Thanks for all of your imput, guys. I appreciate it!