Khaos - Serious cracking issues!

bubblebabeuk · #1 2008-03-31, 2:10am

I seem to have a problem with my Khaos, the bead below was just Khaos over a base of Vetro black! When it first came out of the kiln, it definitely had no cracks whatsoever, I even cleaned it with a electric bead cleaner, its been sat on my workbench for nearly 2 weeks, now its covered with cracks and they are getting worse daily! Anyone else had the same issues? The cracks are definately incompatability! obviously I don't feel I can sell any beads with Khaos in them.
My Khaos came from Tuffnells glass (UK).

Miss Kate · #2 2008-03-31, 5:42am

I bet it's the black vetrofond. Caspertorch got a batch of black vetro in November. It doesn't appear to be compatable with itself! If you need more info, pm her here.

Miss Kate

bubblebabeuk · #3 2008-03-31, 6:13am

I might do that, the vetro came from the same supplier as the khaos did......... in fact bought at the same time!

bubblebabeuk · #4 2008-03-31, 6:19am

I don't tend to do plain black stuff maybe I need to do some testers.

Its annoying, especially worrying that it took a good few days to crack, if I'd been selling it it would have been sent to the buyer within three days well beforte the cracks even developed, I just can't risk beads cracking, its a reputation ruiner at the end of the day! I just need to decide if I'm ditching this batch of Vetro black as well as the khaos? I got the vetro black from tuffnells at the same time as the khaos anyone else bought vetro black recently?

or anyone encased vetro black with khaos and lived to tell the tale? pic's?

Hayley · #5 2008-03-31, 9:00am

Do a stringer test on the Vetrofond Black - here is the instruction from Arrow Springs in case you haven't done that before.

http://arrowsprings.com/html/stringe...patibilit.html

jaci · #6 2008-03-31, 9:12am

I have used Khaos in LOTS of colors- none vetro- and have had no issues. I really like it with the CIM Hades.

tt4st · #7 2008-03-31, 2:13pm

I had the same cracking issue on my encased pendants the last 2 weeks. They look fine and then start getting cracks. The side beads are not cracking (yet). I use stringers of the silver glass over various color bases. On my pendants, it seems as if only the encasing is getting the cracks - not the whole bead down to the mandrel. The ones I did that were encased on half the bead only cracked on half the bead. I was using R4 clear. I tried CIM clear and the encasing cracked on that also. I read yesterday that encasing opaques can be a problem but my cracks are not that picky. Very frustrating!!!!

bubblebabeuk · #8 2008-03-31, 2:17pm

I'm sorry your having the same problem, but I'm also relieved its not just me! The really bad bit is they look okay then the cracks develop slowly, and as you say only cracks in the encasing layer of khaos, they don't seem to go all the way through the bead!

Hayley · #9 2008-03-31, 2:44pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tt4st

I had the same cracking issue on my encased pendants the last 2 weeks. They look fine and then start getting cracks. The side beads are not cracking (yet). I use stringers of the silver glass over various color bases. On my pendants, it seems as if only the encasing is getting the cracks - not the whole bead down to the mandrel. The ones I did that were encased on half the bead only cracked on half the bead. I was using R4 clear. I tried CIM clear and the encasing cracked on that also. I read yesterday that encasing opaques can be a problem but my cracks are not that picky. Very frustrating!!!!

which silver glass did you use? and what base glass?

tt4st · #10 2008-03-31, 2:54pm

It's very weird that it's not cracked all the way through and I'm pulling my hair out trying to figure out the problem. I'm with you - I am trying to make stuff for a show and don't want to sell something that is going to unexpectedly crack. Come to think of it - it seems like I have been reaching for the new Double Helix colors I got recently to put under the encasing. Think I'll go re-test my R4 silver glass because I don't remember having that cracking issue when I was making encased pendants using it.

Hayley · #11 2008-03-31, 3:07pm

The latest batch of Waterfall (Precision 104 / R4) - the transparent one that turns golden hue, has some cracking issue encased. Some of Double Helix's PRE-Khaos test lots also have cracking issue encased and Jed had resolved that with the release version of Khaos. I wonder which one(s) you were using, Suzanne?

tt4st · #12 2008-03-31, 3:11pm

Hayley, I wish I was that organized to know exactly. One has ASK Aloe on one half and 1/2 cobalt with khaos, nyx and sis - then encased with CIM. #2 is 1/2 ASK silver cinnamon and 1/2 lt. ivory maybe. Khaos and Psyche stringers. Only the ivory side was encased and cracked. #3 Lemon Ice base with khaos and nyx. Whole bead encased and cracked. #4 Vetro dk. lichen and cobalt. I think nyx, luna and maybe khaos, sis and encased... cracked

tt4st · #13 2008-03-31, 3:12pm

I am using the Khaos I got from Jon (lbsuppys) and just got it maybe 2 weeks ago.

Hayley · #14 2008-03-31, 3:32pm

Suzanne - which clear did you use to encase?

Hayley · #15 2008-03-31, 3:34pm

A lot of ASK glass doesn't like to be encased on its own, let along ASK with silver glass, then encased. I don't know about Vetrofond Odd lots tho. Hmmmm . . .

I have had issues with CIM clear with some silver glass as well. Kathy from CIM told me she is adding silver glass to test with her clear but I don't believe the first batch was tested with silver glass.

It's frustrating, I know, and I am sorry so many of your beads cracked!!!

tt4st · #16 2008-03-31, 3:34pm

The first was CIM and the other 3 were R4's clear.

Hayley · #17 2008-03-31, 3:38pm

Diamond Clear is your best bet . . . I never had any issue with using that on silver glass but I don't encase my ASK at all and haven't encased any Vetrofond odd lots. Perhaps it's the combination?

tt4st · #18 2008-03-31, 3:42pm

Thanks Hayley. I know about ASK and encasing so I didn't encase over the silver cinnamon and that half did not crack. The other half with the ivory encased cracked. I did encase over the Aloe and had cracks but I am leaning more toward the DH being the problem. I'll put it all to the side and see if the problem goes away....I hope I hope and keeping my fingers crossed!!!

Hayley · #19 2008-03-31, 3:55pm

Suzanne - I use a lot of silver glass and have encased Nyx and Khaos with Diamond Clear and never had any cracking . . . that's why I thought it might be the combination of that on Vetrofond Odd . . . I do hope your cracking problem goes away!!!

tt4st · #20 2008-03-31, 3:59pm

Did you put your nyx and khaos on a base (moretti or vetro) or just encased over the silver glass base?

Hayley · #21 2008-03-31, 4:06pm

I usually use a Vetrofond clear or Effetre transparent cobalt / amethyst as a core, encase that with the silver glass and add Diamond Clear on top.

tt4st · #22 2008-03-31, 6:10pm

Hayley, Thank you for your help! I am going to try the clear base. I had tried the 1/2 cobalt base with luna on top and 1/2 dk lichen. The lichen side cracked first and I feel maybe the cobalt side would not have cracked because it is just now starting a small stress fracture. Maybe putting the silver glass on the opaque glass and then encasing is what is starting the problem. Someone here on LE said they have more cracks when they encase some opaques. Oh well, sure looked pretty for 5 minutes anyway!!!

bubblebabeuk · #23 2008-03-31, 11:15pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hayley

Suzanne - I use a lot of silver glass and have encased Nyx and Khaos with Diamond Clear and never had any cracking . . . that's why I thought it might be the combination of that on Vetrofond Odd . . . I do hope your cracking problem goes away!!!

how long do you hang on to the beads for, normally mine are off and sold within a week, I only have this khaos bead because it was a test bead, the cracks take a while to develop they aren't there to start with which is frustrating, they appear slowly and get worse and worse................ to get to the stage my beads at (see pics) it took nearly 2 weeks!
so even if your beads look fine initially! I wonder if anyone's rechecked them for cracks after a couple of weeks?

I used my vetro black last night and early indications seem fine, obviously I'll keep these and keep checking them, at least we will know if its the vetro black or the khaos at fault.

alexm · #24 2008-03-31, 11:41pm

I haven't tired Khaos yet, so please take what I say with a grain of salt.

I looked at your pictures and yes, they definitely look like incompatibility cracks to me. Usually these show up within a week of making beads, but they can take much longer to surface, so you have no way to telling whether your beads are ok until they crack.

Cobalt is notorious for causing exactly these same kinds of cracks. If you go back to Wet Canvas or the ISGB archives and search for incompatibility you will find lots of discussions on this subject in early 2002 to 2003. The upshot of all that discussion and subsequent experimentation was that cobalt does not like to be encased or placed next to certain colors. In my experience it's very stiff and if you place it next to or over a soft color you will get the nasty cracking problem. Encasing makes this worse.

If you are encasing cobalt there is one neat little trick which works to stock the cracking: make the base of your bead out of the encasing clear. It doesn't have to be big, in fact, it can be a very small base bead of clear. Then layer cobalt over it, then whatever other colors you're using, then finally encase it with clear. This will stop most if not all the cracking.

If it still makes you nervous, and it does me, you can use another color instead of cobalt. Try using ink blue or dark amethyst instead of cobalt. If you must have a dark blue transparent, I often use Dark Sapphire blue from checkglass.com It is a Czech glass that is compatible with other 104 COE colors, it is dark blue, but it is not at all stiff like the cobalt. Please note: I have not done a lot of bead making in the last couple of years, so the Czech glass may not be available anymore, but if it is, then consider the dark sapphire instead of cobalt, it will save you a lot of headaches.

bubblebabeuk · #25 2008-04-01, 4:12am

I didnt use cobalt I used vetro black under my khaos.

alexm · #26 2008-04-01, 8:36am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bubblebabeuk

I didnt use cobalt I used vetro black under my khaos.

Sorry, some people were talking about cobalt. Try using a different black and see what you get.

Hayley · #27 2008-04-01, 9:16am

Quote:

Originally Posted by tt4st

Hayley, Thank you for your help! I am going to try the clear base. I had tried the 1/2 cobalt base with luna on top and 1/2 dk lichen. The lichen side cracked first and I feel maybe the cobalt side would not have cracked because it is just now starting a small stress fracture. Maybe putting the silver glass on the opaque glass and then encasing is what is starting the problem. Someone here on LE said they have more cracks when they encase some opaques. Oh well, sure looked pretty for 5 minutes anyway!!!

Some Boro colors need a core of clear, encased in that color, than encased in clear in order for it not to crack. I think it works similarly with COE104 silver glass as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bubblebabeuk

how long do you hang on to the beads for, normally mine are off and sold within a week, I only have this khaos bead because it was a test bead, the cracks take a while to develop they aren't there to start with which is frustrating, they appear slowly and get worse and worse................ to get to the stage my beads at (see pics) it took nearly 2 weeks! so even if your beads look fine initially! I wonder if anyone's rechecked them for cracks after a couple of weeks?

I used my vetro black last night and early indications seem fine, obviously I'll keep these and keep checking them, at least we will know if its the vetro black or the khaos at fault.

I have beads made with Khaos from when it was first released . . . I don't have time to list on Etsy as often as I would like!

. . . I agree with alexm that perhaps you should try it with Moretti Black as well as clear to see if that works.

Good luck!

jaci · #28 2008-04-01, 9:19am

CIM hades seems to not have any issues with me so far, and really pops the colors.

Double Helix Glassworks · #29 2008-04-01, 9:28am

I believe Vetrofond Black to be a very strong cobalt blue. When it is pulled to a very thin stringer, the cobalt blue is visible, so any issues with regular cobalt may also occur with their black. The cobalt and black are typically run near the end of the useful life of the tank furnace, which accounts for the occurance of refractory stones in those two colors. Dissolved refractory can alter the glass composition, and therefore the expansion/compatibility of the glass in question. Effetre's black is a dark manganese purple, so using their black would avoid the cobalt issue.
Khaos has tested compatible by Polarimetry with Diamond Clear, Effetre, Vetrofond and CiM Clears. The closest results were with Vetrofond and Diamond Clear. Vetrofond and Diamond Clear were very similar, while Effetre strain tests show it to be softer than others. CiM is right in between (at least the batch I have.) I will run polarimetry tests on Vetrofond Cobalt and Black with a variety of clears to see if they show strain.
The very first batch of Khaos we made (and gave away as samples) had some expansion issues, so we recalled it and replaced it. None of it was sent to distributors, but if you think the glass you have is defective, send it back to us and we will happily replace it.
Jed at Double Helix

tt4st · #30 2008-04-01, 1:46pm

Thanks for the info Alex. Maybe I should get in the habit of using a tiny clear base when building the pendants and that might help. It's a very recent problem (I've been making them for a year ) but I have been using more silver glass between layers lately.

Jed, Thank you for the explanation. No way am I throwing in the towel and giving you back your glass

I'm sure it's operator error! I'm off to buy some Moretti black and give that a try. Please don't forget to post your findings on the Vetro cobalt and black because I, for one, am very interested in your results.