A simple press idea for da shiny bit :)

[beadlvr]

My thinking is this, and some (lots) may see it as wrong....I would only get upset if I were Jim Moore or the gentleman that makes the Retro Liner if people were taking these intructions and selling the presses/liners they made from those instructions.

Using these instructions to help you convert your tools into a press/liner to line your beads is not the same thing.

My husband made me a mailbox kiln from directions he found on the internet. I am using the kiln to anneal my beads. He is not making those kilns and selling them...

now where's that sofa

[blong2001]

Originally Posted by KristiB

Don't have a problem with it. It's not the same thing. All those vendors did not create HOW to build a kiln or controller. They have been around for years and years. It's like posting the plans to build a toaster or something. If the plans included a unique feature that was a specific kiln makers invention or creation, Yup, I would have a problem with it.

This man (Jim) created and designed a way to make the job of coring beads simple and easier. The guy who makes the retro too (sorry, don't know his name) did the same thing, but did it in a DIFFERENT way. If you want to try and copy it for your own use because you don't want to spend the money, more power to you. But it is morally wrong to post how you did it or to recreate it and sell it as your own.

I don't understand why people can't see this. If YOU were Jim or the Retro guy, would you care??

Did Disney care?

[KristiB]

Originally Posted by blong2001

Did Disney care?

Nope. Wanna see my letter? I actually sent them a set because I was going to put them on ebay. There is something distinctly different in mine from theirs.

And yes, I am from Happy Valley.

Posting instructions for people on how to copy something that is created by someone else is not OK. Figuring it out for yourself and making it, I don't have a problem with it at all. If someone posted instructions to your signature bead and how to make it but didn't sell it but the end result was that sales of your beads dropped, I think you would have a problem with it.

[Imelt4U]

Oh.my.god. I can't believe we're going here again. Soon... nobody will share ANY thing with the community for fear of being stomped on.

It's human nature to try to figure out things that interests us .... tool or technique. It's been going on since the dawn of time... it's the basis of innovation & progress. It takes a gracious nature to want to share these things with thier chosen families. If someone figures out a better or cheaper way to do something and is willing to share it... I say THANK them for it.

This particular idea will be a big boon for those that can't afford some of the tools on the market. Nor do I think it will affect those sales much. I have Jim's tool... and would've purchased it regardless of this thread. Cause I'm just not a jerry rigger myself & have the money to make the purchase. But I have no problem with those that don't finding a way to do it on thier own. Or helping others in the same position. Frankly I doubt Jim will either.

It's just my opinion... not trying to argumentative.

[KristiB]

Joanie,

Would you really feel that way if it was you that made those tools?? If making tools was how you made your living?? Really? You wouldn't care? I am seriously interested because if I put myself in their shoes or a beadmakers shoes.. I'm sorry, but I WOULD care..

[Megan]

I am sorry I ever mentioned the Arbor press.. Or maybe the mistake was made when I said it looked like the moore press.. But either way, I do not see what is wrong with taking two already made tools (the flaring tool and the arbor press) and putting them together to perform a function for yourself and helping others out there build their own that can't afford buying the expensive tools.. A lot of us have jerryrigged tools. And frankly if putting the two tools together is too involved, I will probably save my pennies and buy his press. I just don't see a problem with it. I don't remember anyone having a problem with the thread that showed us how to put two spoons together with tongs to pull petals which looked and worked very similar to Karen Leonardo's petal puller.. I am sure those two spoons took some business away from her but I don't remember any outrage over that.

Also, the arbor press was mentioned in a previous thread about Moore's press in which he responded and did not mention anything about it. There will always be a market because there are a lot of unhandy people out there and those with the $$ to spend.

Okay, now I will duck and wonder why I ever opened my mouth.. (I never get involved in such things)

[Imelt4U]

Yep... that's what I'm saying. I'm saying the market is there regardless... there are niches for every level. Those that will do the jerry rigging would probably NEVER have made the purchase in the first place. But if they can find a jerry rigged way to do the things they want to do... more power to them. That's ingenuity & that's how new tools & techniques are often developed.

I pretty much feel the same way about the art work I do. I share any thing about items I make. If you ask me a question I'm happy to answer it. If you do it better than me... congratulations & maybe I'll learn something from you & maybe the community is enriched by it.

I've BEEN copied... several times... it doesn't change how I feel. Most will never go further than the question & trying it once for themselves. Those that improve on my ideas still won't disturb my sales... they'll be in a niche above me. Those that have to copy the idea exactly because they don't have the ability to make it thier own... they just never go far anyway.

And again... it's just my opinion & experiece. I don't expect to change anybody else's opinions & totally respect thier rights to have them. ::::

[Nicker]

Joanie I do agree with you somewhat. I think there are markets for every level, probably the people jimmy rigging presses would have never bought Jim's press anyways.

BUT I do think copying is copying, if people get up in arms about beads being copied, copying a tool is no different. Here's where our opinions may differ.

While I understand some may not be able to afford a tool, or class, or bead, I don't think that makes it OK to copy it. Especially for re sale or sharing purposes. I can't afford that snazzy new mini I've been wanting, doesn't mean it's OK for me to go steal it.

[theglasszone]

Oh dear!!! I'm sorry for the turn this thread has taken; I hope Mr. Moore isn't offended. I think that business won't truly be harmed for him with information posted such as this. This probably isn't as easy as it might seem, nor does everyone want to "do it yourself", I figure. EDIT: I personally think Andrew is a generous and creative person who seems genuinely interested in helping and not hurting!

While we're on the subject, though, has anyone seen the new Delphi press that looks almost exactly like the Retro Tool Beadliner? I wonder if Delphi is getting flack for it's production?

I'm under stress and this is a little too much to bear right now for me. I OWN a Jim Moore press - not everyone can! I'm going to step away for now...

DeAnne

I

[Imelt4U]

You're right DeAnna... I'll do the same.

[Andrew]

well i am totaly stunned i copy rip off other people. can you please point to the spot and show me Kristi. I have asked you on the angry mandrel but havnt seen any response what do you want me to change alter take of. im astounded that you look at what i have done the press i bought about ten years ago and i stuck one of my tools of trade in the end and say i copy and rip off. i had basicaly got over what you said on the angry mandrel and was told you are at it on here as well so please show me what ive done.

Regards

Andrew watherston'

[Andrew]

oh oh now im really in trouble looks like stuff ive used sorry kristib

http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=98334

can a moderator remove this thread please and i will remove mysefl as well thanks for the lovely positive stuff from most. to the others well im a gentleman so i wont say it

have a lovely weekend all

Regards
andrew.

[bgurden]

i just bought the jim moore bead lining tool and it is extremely well done as are most his tools. he is a well known tool maker for the glassblowing industry that was asked to make tools for the lampworking industry. he lives in the same town as andrea guarino. how do i know this, i stopped by andrea's booth at bead and button and spoke to andrea's husband who was demoing the tool. i agree that its wrong to copy someones idea. if you like this tool, buy it from guy who designed it. do unto others as you would have someone do unto you right?

[Gila]

I think this is all very sad. Andrew deserves big kudos for inventing and sharing how to make his FF stand. His use of a drill press with its ability to accept different sized threads/shafts is unique and versatile.
I was excited to put together parts and see if they work. Other members asked to see pictures and share ideas, I did. Now I know better.
Best wishes,
Gila Fox

[rosemarie23]

Thank you Andrew, for sharing.

[blong2001]

Andrew I also want to say thank you for sharing! Excellent!
Beth

[pittypat]

You are still a piece of gold to me, Andrew!!! And a real gentleman....

huggies, pat

[ginko]

If someone were ripping Jim Moore's tool exactly, then yes, I would agree.

However, riveting is not new because of Jim Moore. Jim makes a wonderful, aligned adjustment to a standard piece of equipment. If someone chooses to take a standard piece of equipment and modify it for themself, then how is that different?

I first learned riveting in a university-level metals class many years before Jim Moore came out with his tool. Industry has a tremendous history with riveting Tim McCreight gives excellent instructions on riveting in his publications for jewelrymakers. Leatherworkers have used arbor presses for rivets for years. In fact it was the leather workers that pointed me to an arbor press that does not need modified that will core line beads just fine.

I know some are not going to like me saying this, as we have discussed in PMs before. It seems anytime someone tries something new on core lining, there is this uproar about Jim Moore tools. I decided to stop being quiet. It seems that if anyone does anything with an arbor press, someone feels the need to challenge it. I warned that if I got pissed enough I would post this. I guess I am pissed enough.

The Jim Moore press is excellent. Buy it and go right to coring beads. The alignment is perfect. It is a thing of beauty.

http://www.amazon.com/Palmgren-61051.../dp/B00068U7QS (yes, I deliberately chose an unavailable web link--if you want it, do your own search) works, if you are willing to learn basic rivet alignment techniques. It comes pre-drilled and includes flaring dies. Alignment and skill are at the user level, not machined in. Look closely...I think Palmgren made a rivet press long before Jim Moore put his on the market. Did Jim know about the Palmgren 1/2 ton arbor press before he made his bead liner? That's all I am going to say.

asbestos panties--check.

[lavendar420]

Thanks for sharing this, Andrew. I hope you don't depart the LE community because of the copying accusations.

Finding a way to accomplish a task using common place materials is exciting & challenging. Improvisation is handy trait to master, and one we all employ in our artwork. The ability to use commonplace items as tools opens doors to this craft for many of us who would never invest in a specialized tools... until we fall in love with the technique & *need* a quality tool to replace our home made or low cost version.

Everyone knows that Jim Moore's tools are top of the line. They are quality items built to last, and bear a price tag commensurate with that quality. My most expensive lampworking tool is his cushion press & I love that thing. But I'm very glad I was able to make do with cheap bbq mashers for a few years. For one thing, it allows me to appreciate the quality of the $100 version!

This home made version of a liner will never compete with the quality tools from Jim Moore & Retro. They have interchangeable accessories & instructions, not to mention high quality materials & craftsmanship. Those of us handy enough to cut through bolts with a hacksaw & own a drill press can make an inexpensive entry level liner tool. The rest of us can enroll in shop classes, use the old skool hammer method, or buck up & buy the fancy nice version.

[pittypat]

OK, now Dave,ArtintheRound, who is wonderful, btw, just announced his Xpress...I am waiting patiently for you all to jump him????
pat

[Hayley]

Originally Posted by ginko

http://www.amazon.com/Palmgren-61051.../dp/B00068U7QS (yes, I deliberately chose an unavailable web link--if you want it, do your own search) works, if you are willing to learn basic rivet alignment techniques. It comes pre-drilled and includes flaring dies. Alignment and skill are at the user level, not machined in. Look closely...I think Palmgren made a rivet press long before Jim Moore put his on the market. Did Jim know about the Palmgren 1/2 ton arbor press before he made his bead liner? That's all I am going to say.

Thank you for posting this!!!!!

[rguttierrez]

Thanks for the information Andrew. I am sorry that you were attacked but I for one really apprecaited what you were trying to do.

[KristiB]

once again.. i don't have a problem if someone wants to try and make something because they can't afford it, or don't want to spend the money and use it for themselves.

what I have a problem with is people showing others in a public forum how to create something that someone else is selling, or creating it and then selling it themselves. it's not just presses, but beads as well.

as I signed my first post (pollyanna) prehaps I just don't beleive that everyone should climb all over others and not give respect to our fellow artists and human beings. every man/woman for themselves for the almighty dollar and i don't care who i trample. you can still be successful without being that way. I am not pointing this finger at you andrew so please don't think i am, that was a generalization about some of the things that happen here. i know you were only trying to help people and that's a great quality.

perhaps to me this thread was taking the same turn as sherry's chaos thread, i didn't post there and maybe this one put me over the edge, i don't know. andrew it wasn't just your posts, it was the combination of them all. i used to core my beads with a dapping tool so your fat finger tool is awesome, if I was still doing it that way i would buy one in a heartbeat.. i had no idea that you had never seen any of the other riviting tools for sale.

go for in ginko, post the link, people already have. i have gotten a few pm's from people who have bought them and made their own..having trouble with split tubing because the tubing they bought was too thin, and/or it's splitting because it's difficult to get it lined up properly to get a nice even flare. i can't really help them because i don't have that problem and haven't had to try and figure it out, maybe if it's ok, i could send them your way and you can help them?

pittypat, if anyone should be upset it should be andrew, i mean he posted that first, eh? i see some problem with that tool, but you know what? i'm done. i obviously don't see things the same way as most people here

gila.. for you all lower case

sorry i didn't get back last night.. i was making beads. i think i'll go do that now

ciao

[Imelt4U]

Originally Posted by Andrew

oh oh now im really in trouble looks like stuff ive used sorry kristib
http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=98334
can a moderator remove this thread please and i will remove mysefl as well thanks for the lovely positive stuff from most. to the others well im a gentleman so i wont say it
have a lovely weekend all
Regards andrew.

Oh Andrew... you never even SAW that before... it had no impact on what you came up with. In fact, it may be cheaper than buying the stuff for your jerry rigged adaptation. I don't know.. but if it is... your idea would have no impact on him either. People come up with similar ideas... independently of each other... ALL the time. You don't have anything to apologize for... and it would be a shame for your tutorials to come down. It's exactly what I was afraid of... the whole community is diminished when people are too afraid to share any more.

[Imelt4U]

AND.. the thing that gets me the most is the accusation of making money off this. As far as I know Andrew ISN'T trying to sell this tool... not like the links to those other tools... he's just trying to show how he adapted OTHER tools to get the same type of finished product... cheaper. Expense can be a very real issue, to some, in an already expensive craft! It was exceedingly kind of him to make the effort.

AND... quite frankly... I don't have anything against the tools in those other links either. There's not a tool in the WORLD that doesnt' have a dozen different variations on the market. Some cheaper.. some cheap... some exquisite. It's the way of the world.

[Andrew]

what I have a problem with is people showing others in a public forum how to create something that someone else is selling, or creating it and then selling it themselves. it's not just presses, but beads as well.

Hi KristiB

The problem still is i never showed anyone how to make a press i showed how eighteen months ago i cut up one of my old trade tools to get a 45 degree form which the lady asked about. How am i copying i just dont understand.

edit if you mean the press in my picture its something i bought when i was in the navy over ten years ago to cap my chilli and tomato sauce. i never built it

Regards
andrew

[pittypat]

" i had no idea that you had never seen any of the other riviting tools for sale."

And there it seems is your main problem....look before you leap, I think is the term...and, btw, your apology on TAM seemed a little more sincere. I would have to say that you were indeed in quite a tither to have to argue your point on two forums at the same time......pat

[squid]

Originally Posted by ginko

If someone were ripping Jim Moore's tool exactly, then yes, I would agree.

However, riveting is not new because of Jim Moore. Jim makes a wonderful, aligned adjustment to a standard piece of equipment. If someone chooses to take a standard piece of equipment and modify it for themself, then how is that different?

I first learned riveting in a university-level metals class many years before Jim Moore came out with his tool. Industry has a tremendous history with riveting Tim McCreight gives excellent instructions on riveting in his publications for jewelrymakers. Leatherworkers have used arbor presses for rivets for years. In fact it was the leather workers that pointed me to an arbor press that does not need modified that will core line beads just fine.

I know some are not going to like me saying this, as we have discussed in PMs before. It seems anytime someone tries something new on core lining, there is this uproar about Jim Moore tools. I decided to stop being quiet. It seems that if anyone does anything with an arbor press, someone feels the need to challenge it. I warned that if I got pissed enough I would post this. I guess I am pissed enough.

The Jim Moore press is excellent. Buy it and go right to coring beads. The alignment is perfect. It is a thing of beauty.

http://www.amazon.com/Palmgren-61051.../dp/B00068U7QS (yes, I deliberately chose an unavailable web link--if you want it, do your own search) works, if you are willing to learn basic rivet alignment techniques. It comes pre-drilled and includes flaring dies. Alignment and skill are at the user level, not machined in. Look closely...I think Palmgren made a rivet press long before Jim Moore put his on the market. Did Jim know about the Palmgren 1/2 ton arbor press before he made his bead liner? That's all I am going to say.

asbestos panties--check.

I agree with Ginko - just because Andrews idea is similar doesn't mean he is ripping off Jim Moore. I am SO sick of people pissing on other people trying to innovate or come up with new ways to do things.

Andrew, keep doing what you're doing. 99.9% of us appreciate it.

[theglasszone]

(REITERATING MY POST #18 IN THIS THREAD):

http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...15#post1964815

Except to add that when I go see "Batman - The Dark Knight" on Sunday with my family, when the Joker says "And...here...we...go!" (just before attempting to blow-up Gotham, wreak havoc on the innocents and unleash destruction), it will be difficult not to think of this thread - ha!

Hugs to you Andrew!

~De

[VickieLee]

Originally Posted by pittypat

OK, now Dave,ArtintheRound, who is wonderful, btw, just announced his Xpress...I am waiting patiently for you all to jump him????
pat

Hopefully, no one will go after Dave's Xpress. I can tell you that his tool was in the works for a VERY long time, before Andrew put his tutorial up in fact. The reason I know this is because I've been his tester on this tool, and I'm the reason he didn't launch it sooner. He was concerned about getting flack for doing a liner tool, but as you can see by his picture it's nothing like what's out there and in a whole other price range. There is and always will be a market for each tool, based on the buyers needs.
I want to thank Andrew for his efforts to help this community. I can't imagine taking that much time to do the photos and tutorial, as a courtesy, and then getting some flack for it. His "intent" is what should be judged and it looks like it was that of pure generosity, not to hurt the current tool manufacturers.
Vickie