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Safety -- Make sure you are safe!

View Poll Results: Do you have propane tank(s) in your house?
Yes, but only a maximum of 2 one-pound tanks 76 10.60%
Yes, I keep my BBQ tank right next to me in the studio. 212 29.57%
No, it always stays outside. I run the lines through a door/window. 247 34.45%
No, it always stays outside. I have a plumbed line through the wall. 182 25.38%
Voters: 717. You may not vote on this poll

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  #121  
Old 2005-12-13, 2:27pm
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Darelyn Darelyn is offline
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OK, I'm still trying to envision the setup. I was reading the other post about cold oxygen tanks. Does the gas tank go outside and the oxygen go inside the house? Can both stay outside (even in MN)?
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  #122  
Old 2005-12-13, 4:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darelyn
OK, I'm still trying to envision the setup. I was reading the other post about cold oxygen tanks. Does the gas tank go outside and the oxygen go inside the house? Can both stay outside (even in MN)?
First there is NO rule for oxygen tank other than it needs to be chained up for safety. It can go inside or outside. IF fuel is outside why not keep oxygen tank outside too... Oxygen tank does not know if its cold or hot, it doesnt care.

One of these rascals outside studio to put tanks in and with both oxy and fuel piped in to torch makes a great arrangement...

http://www.rubbermaid.com/hpd/consum...irdMenuIndex=5

Dale
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Last edited by Dale M.; 2005-12-13 at 4:25pm.
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  #123  
Old 2005-12-13, 6:05pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sue in Maine
Antonio,

The only one responsible for the choices you make is you but your decisions affect other people and I'm not sure you have the right to put them at risk by breaking laws, regardless of what your personal opinion of them is. Gee, I don't like the rule so I'm not gonna follow it. I'd think that with one fire that you got lucky on, you'd be the first one hopping onto the safety bandwagon.
Mike made some good points on the insurance and lawsuit issues but there is one he didn't mention. If you are responsible for someone dying, how are you going to live with yourself, especially if you knew you shouldn't have been doing what you did in the first place.

Mike gives us a lot of valuable safety advice on this forum and I, for one, appreciate it. I don't see the sense or need to have him "justify" anything.

Sue
How am I putting anyone at risk? How is there more safety in storing 2 lbs of propane over 3 ? How does having a 100 lb propane bottle outside the window make a firefighter more safe than having 3 lbs indoors?

I do not blindly accept rules just because they are rules. I suggest you should not do so either. Not all rules are gems of wisdom.

I am asking for advice on the subject because it does not seem to make sense; not questioning the former value that Mike has provided to the forum. I questioned his conclusions on this specific matter only and got a long diatribe attacking me personally. This indicates to me that there is no substance to his arguments.

I suggest you refrain from judgement before you understand fully the context of my query. I in no way meant any disrespect, but seem to be receiving disrespect in return for an honest question.

Antonio
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  #124  
Old 2005-12-13, 6:17pm
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Thanks, Dale.
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  #125  
Old 2005-12-13, 6:23pm
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OK now don't yell -I get the message...I saw that 1-2 lb tanks can be inside. Now is anyone going to rebutt that?
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  #126  
Old 2005-12-13, 6:41pm
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So how come the jewelry store can have a big canister of propane sitting right there next to the jewelers bench?
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  #127  
Old 2005-12-13, 8:46pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevan
So how come the jewelry store can have a big canister of propane sitting right there next to the jewelers bench?
Because its a COMMERCIAL establishment.... Different rules than RESIDENCE...

Dale
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  #128  
Old 2005-12-13, 8:53pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale M.
Because its a COMMERCIAL establishment.... Different rules than RESIDENCE...

Dale
Wouldn't it have the possiblity of killing a whole lot more people inside of Fred Meyers than in my garage?
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  #129  
Old 2005-12-13, 9:41pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ozgal
I have never heard of gas blowin up.. in the household situation or vehicle.
Interesting..
Me neither... That's because it's highly unlikely.

However, there are those alarmist types that will try and logically argue that if a thing is "possible" ; if one person *might* die , that we should be doing something about it. The argument lacks balance.

By that line of reasoning we should all errect protective domes over our houses because a meteor *might* hit us. Or maybe we should avoid all sporting events because a terorist *might* attack us. Or maybe we should preemtively attack Iraq because Sadaam *might* come and get us. The ole' domino / logical extrapolation theory is exploited over and over again and when someone wants to further some agenda. And when someone steps up and asks, "Why?" They are always met with anger and resentment.

There is a fine line between intelligent safety concerns and paranoia. Personally, I think we are all a bit too reactionary in this country. I think we need to legalize marijuana so that we can all relax a bit.

Antonio
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  #130  
Old 2005-12-13, 9:44pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevan
Wouldn't it have the possiblity of killing a whole lot more people inside of Fred Meyers than in my garage?
Doesn't Fred Meyer's sell starting fluid stacked on the shelves in the auto section? That stuff is way more exposive than propane. They use it (ether) in race cars to get more ooomph. Can we infer from this that Fred Meyer's and the Fire Marshal believe that these explosive substances, when handled with proper care, are not likely to cause a problem?

Further, (and I would love some firefighters to chime in here) I think that explosion is way down the list when it comes to deaths resulting from fires. Way up there is strutural failure and inhalation of toxic fumes from burning plastic substances. Perhaps we should store our couches and rugs outside at night?

By the lack of response to my question, I think it is clear that the "it's dangerous" perspective has been totally disproven. There is no reason to supponse that 2lbs of propane is a resonable storage amount while 10 lbs is not--that one poses more danger than the other. Nor is there any reason I can imagine that would make a 100lb container outside the window less dangerous than a 3 pounder inside.

Sorry Mike, but I must respectfully disagree.


Antonio
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  #131  
Old 2005-12-14, 12:05am
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Hardware stores are lined with flammable and exposive products. How can Home Depot have 50 1b. canisters of propane on the shelf and that be more safe than having a 3 lb one in my garage?

It can't. It's stupid.

There's a bigger fire hazard at my nail salon.
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  #132  
Old 2005-12-14, 3:41am
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You guys need to consider 2 things (and remember I did at FIRST keep my propane indoors.. I'll tell you why I DON'T now, in a bit) heres the 2 things:
1. You and your family LIVE in your house. A propane leak in there WILL kill. Period. one spark and you are all bye-bye

2. Keeping propane indoors is illegal. period. always. (EXCEPT for some businesses and thats a whole other issue) IF you should have a fire, inhalation accident or ANY of the above.. insurance won't pay, you will go to jail, and you'll probably have killed or maimed someone you love.

Now, here's what convinced me to get my propane outside FAST!
An acquaintance of mine had his propane tanks in a covered ., screened and partially glassed in concrete porch. I asked him last year if it was safe... and he assured me that "he always had it that way.. lots of ventilation since the porch only had a half roof and all screened. Long story short.. one of the fittings failed while the family slept. Wife went out on the porch to smoke, as she always did, in the AM and there was a horrific explosion. 3rd degree burns and 6 months of skin grafts later, yes she is still alive. Insurance did NOT cover house damage because they consider a screened porch INSIDE STORAGE. The back half of their house was trashed. Wife almost killed. Over keeping a $20 tank of gas under cover, when they could have EASILY piped the gas thru the screens or door and left the tanks outside.

Thats ALL I have to say!
Lynnie

Here is a pic of the Propane tank OUTSIDE and the quick connect/Flashback arrestor we have set up. I simply disconnect the hose It is all enclosed in a rubbermaid container turned on it's side. I drilled a hole in one side for the hose to slip thru and keep it closed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevan
Hardware stores are lined with flammable and exposive products. How can Home Depot have 50 1b. canisters of propane on the shelf and that be more safe than having a 3 lb one in my garage?

It can't. It's stupid.

There's a bigger fire hazard at my nail salon.
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Last edited by danelady; 2005-12-14 at 4:10am.
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  #133  
Old 2005-12-14, 4:50am
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A tank OUTSIDE can be SEEN by firefighting professionals who can put a hose on it to keep the liquid fuel inside from boiling.

A tank INSIDE cannot be SEEN by firefighting professionals until they enter the building, and the liquid fuel may already be boiling from the heat, and an explosion may soon ensue -- the professionals may not have enough time to evacuate.

I just love the way people need to justify their actions by denegrating generally accepted rules and regulations and demand reasons why THEY need to follow them and try to point out that other people don't or try to compare apples to oranges (household studio versus commercial establishment with overhead 'wet' sprinkler systems and advanced firefighting equipment built into the store).

It's also very obvious that certain people did not read the opening post to this thread, so I'll repeat it for clarification:

Quote:
From the MSDS for propane:

"DANGER! Fires impinging (direct flame) on the outside surface of unprotected pressure storage vessels of Propane can be very dangerous. Direct flame exposure on the container wall can cause an explosion by BLEVE (Boiling Liquid Expanding Vapor Explosion). This is a catastrophic failure of the vessel releasing the contents into a massive fireball and explosion. The resulting fire and explosion can result in severe equipment damage (meaning fire trucks!) and personnel injury or death over a large area around the vessel. For massive fires in large areas, use unmanned hose holder or monitor nozzels; if this is not possible, withdraw from the area and allow fire to burn."
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  #134  
Old 2005-12-14, 8:58am
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Excerpt from previously posted article....

NATIONAL FIRE PREVENTION ASSOCIATION ( NFPA - Section 58 )

Using and storing these "gases" is regulated by the Nation Fire Protection Association ( NFPA) and or a set of local ordinances. A copy of the NFPA codes may be purchased here:

http://www.nfpa.org/Codes/index.asp

Note: They are not available for viewing online.

Or:

NFPA (National Fire Protection Association)
1 Batterymarch Park, Quincy, MA 02169-7471 USA
Telephone: +1 617 770-3000 Fax: +1 617 770-0700


The NFPA stipulates that natural gas may be brought into a residence in steel piping at a maximum pressure of 5 pounds per square inch (psi) . It is generally brought into residence at the pressure of ž to ― psi or 6.9199 to 13.8399 inches of water column (wc). 27.6799 inches of wc is equal to 1 psi.

The NFPA stipulates propane may be brought into a residence at the maximum pressure of 20 psi . And must be in steel piping.

Please note it is against NFPA and most local ordinances to bring either gas into residence with rubber or vinyl hose just pushed through a hole in the wall.

The NFPA also prohibits storage and use of a propane cylinder over the size of "1 pound" in a residence. Although it is permissible to store 2 such "1 pound" containers inside at any give time. This means your 4.5 and 11 and 20 pound cylinders (or larger) MUST BE STORED OUTSIDE. If concerned about out side storage you can either provide a secured (locked) storage enclosure or if its only appearance you can use a decorative enclosure. Just be sure what ever enclosure you use, that it is well ventilated at bottom of enclosure to prevent propane pooling in enclosure.


Actual NFPA document is available here:

http://www.nfpa.org/catalog/product....%5Ftype=search

Just pay the $36 and be an educated lampworker.

Also find full document on Natural Gas and Propane notes here:

http://www.artglassanswers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9
http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1020

Dale M.
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  #135  
Old 2005-12-14, 11:22am
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Dale, Mike, Danelady...

Thank you all for the intelligent replies. I want to know that I have reconsidered and believe it is probably better to err on the side of caution and so I will be piping my propane in after many years of not doing so.

It is always better, I think, to appoach those who do not agree with your initial assertions with respect. Respect engenders better communication especially amongst those with the 'artist mentality"--those who are not afraid to question the status quo and pretty much live " on the fringes " anyway.

I often take an adversarial stance on an issue just to bring out the very best in people and help me to clarify my own thinking. Often people "rise to the occasion" and produce their best when challenged. I am one such person.

I have dealt with building departments, fire inspectors, and labor & industries quite extensively in my real estate dealings. I know that there are many arbitrary rules and regulations that make no sense--rules that have been granfathered in and remain for no good reason. Perhaps you have seen examples yourself.

In this particular case I have weighed all your arguments and think you guys may be right. I bow ( but not too low ) to your judgements.

Have a wonderful and safe holliday season,

Antonio
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  #136  
Old 2005-12-17, 8:48pm
BlueStudioBeads BlueStudioBeads is offline
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Wow, this has been a great inspiration for me to get my propane tank out of my studio. Here's my situation: my studio is above a detached garage. My home is heated with natural gas but the studio has a separate large propane tank for heat. Which would be easier/cheaper/faster -- to use the existing propane tank for my fuel source (is there a way to piggyback off the line already plumbed) or to have a line put through the wall for a separate smaller tank?
Thanks for your advice!
Dyann
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  #137  
Old 2005-12-18, 6:26am
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If you piggy back off the already plumbed line, you are locking yourself into a low pressure already regulated, usually non-changable pressure setting.

What I'd do is have the gas people "T" off the line BEFORE the regulator, put a 2nd regulator on the line, it can be fixed at 10 PSI (maximum is 20, but I've NEVER seen anyone in glassworking use more than 10 PSI). Inside the studio, use a 2nd settable regulator set at 5 PSI. Using dual regulators will give you the ability to adjust your pressure as needed.
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  #138  
Old 2005-12-18, 8:55am
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I would like to say after years of following (lurking) in the forums that if it were not for some people who are willing to teach and inform on safety issues that I believe there would already have been some unfortunate and deadly outcomes. I think there are many people who read the forums for all info fun and safety issues alike that don't post frequently or never post that go away with information that they would not otherwise have access to. So I believe you are touching huge numbers of people that you aren't even aware of. Thanks Dale and Mike especially for all your diligent help all these years. I personally respect these issues on fuel safety. IN addition the issue that an accident with these fuels whether or not my fault would invalidate my home owners insurance if they were improperly stored and used is another point well taken. I can also tell you after my own PERSONAL experience with storing 2 one pound cylinders of Mapp gas ...legal or not... I will never even have the one pound tanks stored inside again. I had a one pound Mapp tank that leaked and believe me that little tank was enough to convince me that even that was not worth the risk. About 2 yr. ago here we had a large house EXPLODE and horrible fire and surrounding houses heavily damaged do to propane tanks stored in all places the living room. Was he heating with them? That was the original thought according to the fire dept. investigation. Can't ask the resident because he is dead. So... again, thank you and carry on. Have fun but always safety first.
Linda
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  #139  
Old 2005-12-19, 2:22am
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I have a question.

I use a Hot Head on MAPP Gas. The cannisters I currently get are the small one pound tanks (the tiny yellow ones that only last for two to three hours that you can buy at Rona or Canadian Tire). Since I live in a small apartment with no garage, no balcony, no yard, they sit in the corner behind my front door. (I will have upwards of five full tanks and ten empty tanks there at one time).

I am looking into upgrading to a larger tank system. I can get 10lb and 20lb tanks (20lb tanks are standard propane tanks for BBQs) filled with MAPP Gas from a local welding supplier. I will be getting a regulator, backflow valve or whatever and all the other little doodads including an extended hose and quick release so that my tank can be on the other side of my apartment from my studio. I called the fire department and talked to a residential fire inspector as to my plans of having this tank within my home. He hung up to do some research, and called back the next day saying that he didn't see any problem with me having this cannister within my home.

Does anyone have any safety experience with MAPP Gas and be willing to give me some suggestions to make my intended setup safer? Does anyone have any suggestions on any economical ways to solve this problem?

Since MAPP Gas is apparently heavier than air, I was thinking of having some sort of top open but airtight container (like a rubber bucket) that the tanks can sit in. I have seen this with other set ups, and if the container is big enough, it will temporarily contain the leak so that someone attentive can find it and deal with it before it becomes a more immediate problem. This in no way diminishes the danger of ignition as there are still lingering vapours, but it does contain the gas from leaking across the floor, causing asphyxiation in small animals, children or anyone breathing below knee level.

Last edited by brimmy; 2005-12-19 at 2:27am.
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  #140  
Old 2005-12-19, 7:38am
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Canadian laws about propane safety must be very different from US laws - but the hazards remain exactly identical.

DO NOT keep propane tanks or MAPP tanks or any other explosive/flammable fuel gas tanks in your apartment PERIOD. ALWAYS KEEP THEM OUTSIDE.

Get rid of the empty one-pounders - they cannot be refilled - they contain small amounts of fuel and in a fire will act like hand grenades when exposed to fire and flame.

Keep no more than two filled one pounder tanks in your apartment at any one time.

Just because the laws are different does not diminish the risk to you, your family and your apartment building in anyway whatsoever. Not only are you placing yourself and your family at risk, but every single person who lives in your apartment building.

This is A Very Bad Idea.

I strongly urge you to continue using one pound propane tanks - or move your studio into a place where you can safely use propane tanks.

There really is no such thing as 'temporarily containing a leak' of propane gas - once you have a leak, you have a potentially fatal problem - that of an explosive gas waiting for a spark. The leak may not come from the tank area, in which case the bucket serves no purpose whatsoever. The danger from propane is not asphyxiation, but the low volumetric level required to reach explosive concentration. And a bucket is the perfect container to reach that level -- it is far better to allow the propane to spread than to contain it in one small area where the concentration can reach explosive levels in a very short time. A wider area allows for more immediate notice that there is a problem, either by using Nose Mark I, or by fuel gas leak detector devices.

Do the only safe thing - put the tank outside where it belongs.
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Last edited by MikeAurelius; 2005-12-19 at 7:43am.
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  #141  
Old 2005-12-19, 8:44am
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I totally agree with everything Mike has said....

The laws may allow it, but practical sense and personal safety should override the fact the law is lax on the subject... Really have to wonder about the qualifications of your fire officials.

There is no way to practically contain leaking heavier than air gases. The only solution is "dilution" and that can only happen if a large volume of air is moving across floor and pulling gasses out side. This means all the time, not just when you are at the torch with ventilation running, because you never know when you may have a leak.....

Dale
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  #142  
Old 2005-12-19, 2:22pm
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Again, we have the problem that there is no possibility of putting teh tanks outside. I have no yard, no patio, no garage, no storage. I am also not allowed to just throw away tanks. If the collectors believe that there are tanks in my garbage, they can refuse pickup. I have to spread them out and put one in the center of each full bag. Since I do not make much garbage, sometimes the empty cannisters pile up, sometimes I can get rid of them all. I try to only keep my one cannister for my torch and one spare at a time, but since I work on my beads at night (darker and easier to see the glow) I have to plan on this. In one night I can use upwards of 4 tanks. If I know I need to do that much work in one night, that is when I will have upwards of 5, but the rest of the time, there are no more than two.

Instead of just preaching about what I am doing wrong (I know what I am doing, the hazards and safety issues included) how about some constructive suggestions on how to make my apartment safer. Its a catch 22. To make my apartment safe, I need to get rid of the torch and move into either a house with an unattached shed / garage or get a studio. To be able to afford the move to somewhere much much more expensive, I need to keep making beads and my other art. So, I will gladly live with what risk I can reasonably minimize and be as careful as possible (I know its not much, but no one in the building smokes, we have no candles, incense, no gas stove, the torch is the one obvious ignition source) and save up every little penny in hopes of getting a more suitable living space sooner rather than giving up and working for McDonalds.
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  #143  
Old 2005-12-19, 3:53pm
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MikeAurelius MikeAurelius is offline
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Brimmy - that is the point we are trying to make - there is no possible way you can make your apartment safe to use a propane tank inside. If you have a leak, you will have full tank pressure (120 PSI) of propane spilling into your apartment space - in less than 30 seconds, the gas will reach explosive threshold. There is no way around this - it is basic physics.

Continue to use your 1 pound tanks, it is the safest way you can work.
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  #144  
Old 2005-12-19, 6:46pm
brimmy brimmy is offline
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According to the fire department, MAPP Gas tanks and propane tanks are different. Which is why I would be allowed a tank equivalent to a BBQ tank in my apartment. Thank you though. When I am finally ready for my new set up, I will post here for suggestions.
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  #145  
Old 2005-12-19, 9:09pm
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Dale M. Dale M. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brimmy
According to the fire department, MAPP Gas tanks and propane tanks are different. Which is why I would be allowed a tank equivalent to a BBQ tank in my apartment. Thank you though. When I am finally ready for my new set up, I will post here for suggestions.
I think you need to go back to fire dept. Tanks for propane and MAPP can be intermixed (we are talking physical design and mechanical properties) and physical properties of the gasses them selves are similar.... As both being LPG gases and heavier than air and both explosive...

Suggest you get MSDS sheets for both fuels and compare dangers.

http://phyvirtual.nju.edu.cn/material/MSDS/G118.pdf
http://phyvirtual.nju.edu.cn/material/MSDS/G74.pdf

This makes me doubt fire dept officials even more then before.

Dale
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Last edited by Dale M.; 2005-12-19 at 9:14pm.
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  #146  
Old 2005-12-19, 9:21pm
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Nope, a BBQ Tank is illegal in your apt. You could kill everyone living there with one! If you value your freedom and your life, get the tank out ASAP... please. Call the fire dept and have them over for a visit. You'll see!
Quote:
Originally Posted by brimmy
According to the fire department, MAPP Gas tanks and propane tanks are different. Which is why I would be allowed a tank equivalent to a BBQ tank in my apartment. Thank you though. When I am finally ready for my new set up, I will post here for suggestions.
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  #147  
Old 2005-12-19, 9:35pm
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danelady : Please read previous posts. I do not have a BBQ tank in my house (only the little 1lb MAPP gas cannisters, as explained above). The discussion is based upon my phone call with the fire department as to what my options were for upgrading my torch and that was their suggestion (after hanging up, researching and calling me back the next day).
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  #148  
Old 2006-01-11, 6:07pm
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Karen Hardy Karen Hardy is offline
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Joining in late here. Hi boys and girls. I just built a studio in my garage and (bad girl) I do have the propane inside. Even after reading through all the pages of posts I'm having trouble envisioning how I'm going to go about putting the tank outside and putting a hole in the wall and what kind of hook-up it's going to be. Someone recommended to me that I should put a dryer vent in the wall and feed the tubing through that - would that be ok? How would I turn the propane on and off - would I have to run around to the backyard and then run back around to turn it off again?

I'm 100% in agreement that it's stupid to have the propane in the house (attached garage/studio) - so you all can save your breath verbally smacking me around. I'll do it myself even {smack}. I'm a good girl, I just don't know how to go about fixing things, and haven't been able to figure out how to do it the best way. If you can explain it - try and keep it to a 4 year old comprehension level <g>. I'm not stupid, but sure feel that way when it comes to the technical stuff. Pictures would be a lifesaver (no pun intended).

Oh - Mike, I bought your glasses a while ago (biker style!) and I adore them. No more headaches or blurry vision from eye strain and flares, and I look bitchin' in them (isn't that the most important part?). Awesome product!!! Got lots of compliments on them at the last Glass Society meeting.

Karen Hardy
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  #149  
Old 2006-01-11, 9:44pm
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NFPA stipulates any propane coming into building needs to be in metalic piping... That means you can not just poke hose through hole in wall or through something like dryer vent....

Dale
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  #150  
Old 2006-01-11, 11:19pm
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Karen Hardy Karen Hardy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale M.
NFPA stipulates any propane coming into building needs to be in metalic piping... That means you can not just poke hose through hole in wall or through something like dryer vent....

Dale

Hi Dale!
So now, color me even more confused. It's ok to have the propane tank outside and chuck a hose through a window, but if I want to put in a dryer vent and pass it through there that's not kosher? I'm more concerned about safety than NFPA requirements (although I'd prefer that my insurance agent not run away screaming in panic when he sees my studio setup too).

I just don't see how I can properly set this up myself without calling in a professional (and then, that begs the question, what KIND of professional, plumber? electrician? And what exactly do I tell him/her that I want to have done? I have a handyman that does odd jobs, but he's a little gung ho and would gladly assemble a nuclear bomb in the bathroom for me if I had the plans and materials - so I can't count on him for safety issues).

Karen
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