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2009-12-11, 10:44am
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Linda Linda Honey, lookit
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Join Date: Oct 31, 2008
Location: Almost paradise... ccept for the humidity.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mini
We get the original HH down here but that really is expensive for the locals & the MAPP is a budget killer. It's all imported.
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hmmmm..... you buy the original HH there, then sell it to me here.....
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Christopher
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2009-12-11, 11:21am
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Salt Box Beads
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Join Date: Oct 23, 2005
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Dale and Kristina...since you had in quotes my response I gather you are asking in regards to the UK lampworkers and why they use regulators?
I think that is the law in the UK. All tanks must be regulated and I also think they are allowed to have them in the home. I may be wrong but I think that is how it works over there.
Frit Happens is a fun forum to browse and studio pics are informative for how they set up.
What Dale told you is for the US, and how a lot of people here think about propane and how our laws are here in the US.
Also Cindy Jenkins did make the torch to be used with 1 pound canisters but in her book " Making Glas Beads" on page 20, she shows it hooked up to a small propane tank. I have one of those also but I still keep it outside next to my regular sized BBQ propane tank.
I like to use it because I can get it filled and carry it easily.
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2009-12-11, 11:47am
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Gentleman of Leisure
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Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
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Ok... Somewhere I totally missed it... Where is "Frit Happens"?
Dale
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San Francisco - A Few Toys Short of a Happy Meal
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2009-12-11, 12:15pm
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Senior Member
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2009-12-11, 3:22pm
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Gentleman of Leisure
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Thank you!
Dale
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2009-12-11, 4:01pm
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My findings so far are inconclusive and I'd like to measure temperatures.
First, I can confirm that AutoZone sells the genuine MT245C MagTorch heavy duty pencil tip torch with a brass body for $6.39 ($7.00 with CA tax). The store I visited had only one in stock, but it is a regularly carried item.
Second, the manufacturer's links given by Dale M. for this torch are archives and cannot be reached by linking from the current MagTorch website. I have asked whether they still manufacture the torch.
The old Hot Head has six air inlet holes averaging a diameter of 4.05mm. The distance from the outside of the holes to the oriface is 9.53mm. I don't have a wire gauge for the orifice right now, but it is approximately 0.30mm. The orifice is located in a removable insert. The main nozzle opening is 6.07mm.
The MT245C has six air inlet holes averaging a diameter of 4.15mm. The distance from the outside of the holes to the center of the torch is about 9.12mm. I don't want to take apart the torch yet until I can get another one or until I can measure temperatures. The orifice is not perfectly centered in the torch and appears to be drilled into the base of the nozzle. The main nozzle opening is 5.60mm.
I have another torch of unverifiable branding. It has has six air inlet holes averaging a diameter of 3.94mm. The distance from the outside of the holes to the orifice is 9.56mm. The orifice is located in a removable insert and is centered in the base of the torch, but this torch is of the design that is difficult to disassemble. The main nozzle opening is 5.50mm.
I have a recent Hot Head, but right now a student is borrowing it for the winter break.
I would have expected there to be a meaningful difference in the size of the holes and would have guessed that the MT245 modified to be a Hot Head would have larger holes. However, the opposite seemed to be true. One reason the AutoZone torch might be less expensive is the design of the orifice. Even though the unknown torch was of the design in which the head cannot be disassembled easily, it still had the orifice located in an insert (as determined by inspection). The AutoZone torch had no insert. I'm waiting to inspect a recent Hot Head to see if the orifice is in a separately machined insert or whether it is simply drilled in the base of the nozzle assembly. If someone else would care to look, that might satisfy the impatient.
Another thing to do is to get an MT245C from Amazon, Home Depot, or Lowe's and see if there is a difference between the ~$15-29 torch. (I don't remember seeing this torch at Orchard Supply Hardware.) Perhaps that is an older design.
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2009-12-11, 4:11pm
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Senior Member
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That you for that link, but perhaps it should be mentioned that the appropriate regulator on that page has a maximum output pressure of 60 psi, which is the bare minimum mentioned in your post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale M.
As for regulator, the jury is still out.... The HH or MAG torch is designed to operate at full tank pressures (120psi at about 70° f.) .... Adding a regulator may cause a more stable flame, but regulator has to operate in the range of 60-70 psi minimum to allows torch to burn effectively...
Any one interestes in high pressure regulators, and LONG hoses may want to look here...
For regulator...
http://www.flameengineering.com/Regulators.html
Dale
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2009-12-11, 5:06pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: May 20, 2007
Location: buenos aires.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MardiGrasGlass
hmmmm..... you buy the original HH there, then sell it to me here.....
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By "original" I really meant the branded one. Not the first ones.... Sorry for the confusion!
They sell the HH here in Buenos Aires for 275 Pesos which is US$75. Better if I buy a bunch of the MTs for US$7 and sell it down here.
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2009-12-11, 5:14pm
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Gentleman of Leisure
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Quote:
Originally Posted by De Anza Art Glass Club
That you for that link, but perhaps it should be mentioned that the appropriate regulator on that page has a maximum output pressure of 60 psi, which is the bare minimum mentioned in your post.
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The 567 RC version is only 60psi, check the fine print for the 567 RD version (100 psi and is $5 more) .....
Also here is links to MAG torch.....
http://www.magtorch.com/PROP200sub.htm
http://www.magtorch.com/images/Produ...0Low%20Rez.pdf
http://www.magtorch.com/images/Instr...20MT%20245.pdf
Also ...Older version of HH has removable orifice and is more "adjustable"..... Later version (cheaper to manufacture) has no orifice but uses the "pebbeled brass stuff" as a fuel control... Later version of HH is not as adjustable....
Dale
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2009-12-11, 5:40pm
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Thanks. Perhaps I wasn't clear, though. The links you provided for the MT245C are valid, but I believe they are archives. One cannot access them from publicly provided links on the magtech.com site, except for the instruction sheet PDF. You have to know the exact address. For example, if you go to the MagTorch site and select their propane torches ( http://www.magtorch.com/propane.htm ), you get a similar page to your first link, but without the MT245C. The PROP200sub page is no longer linked. That's why I wrote to the manufacturer to find out if the torch is still in production.
Yes, the older HH has a removable oriface. What I was saying is that in some intermediate version, the torch still incorporated the removable oriface piece, but that the torch head is not (easily) removable, so it is not replaceable, but still exists. The latest version does not have that piece. As for the latest version, OK, we won't call it an oriface, but it does have a drilled hole to create a venturi to draw air into the stream.
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2009-12-11, 5:47pm
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Thanks. As usual, I didn't read the fine print. Actually, I ignored everything after seeing 60 psi and looking at the pretty pictures because I was used to looking at the products at that English supplier (Tuffells?). Correction: Tuffnells http://www.tuffnellglass.com/contents/en-uk/d28.html
So, to your list of things (regulator, cylinder & hose connections, and hoses) you might want to add gauges as another expense. (I realize lower pressure gauges are on the regulator page, but I'm just trying to say that it is another added cost.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale M.
The 567 RC version is only 60psi, check the fine print for the 567 RD version (100 psi and is $5 more) .....
Dale
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2009-12-11, 9:06pm
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Gentleman of Leisure
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Quote:
Originally Posted by De Anza Art Glass Club
Thanks. Perhaps I wasn't clear, though. The links you provided for the MT245C are valid, but I believe they are archives. One cannot access them from publicly provided links on the magtech.com site, except for the instruction sheet PDF. You have to know the exact address. For example, if you go to the MagTorch site and select their propane torches ( http://www.magtorch.com/propane.htm ), you get a similar page to your first link, but without the MT245C. The PROP200sub page is no longer linked. That's why I wrote to the manufacturer to find out if the torch is still in production.
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And.....
Go to home page...
http://www.magtorch.com/index.html
Go to "Producr" drop down ....
Select "Propane"....
Click on MT 200 series (image)......
What do you get.......
http://www.magtorch.com/PROP200sub.htm
You have made a lot of noise and comments, all seem to be headed in some direction and so far all proven misdirected..........
Dale
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2009-12-11, 9:17pm
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OK, fine if you think so. I'll just post some photographs and then I'm done.
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2009-12-11, 9:26pm
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Gentleman of Leisure
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Quote:
Originally Posted by De Anza Art Glass Club
Thanks. As usual, I didn't read the fine print. Actually, I ignored everything after seeing 60 psi and looking at the pretty pictures because I was used to looking at the products at that English supplier (Tuffells?). Correction: Tuffnells http://www.tuffnellglass.com/contents/en-uk/d28.html
So, to your list of things (regulator, cylinder & hose connections, and hoses) you might want to add gauges as another expense. (I realize lower pressure gauges are on the regulator page, but I'm just trying to say that it is another added cost.)
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I left a little to the intelligence of the person pursuing the "system".... A pressure gauge is no a deal breaker and it is optional..... Its there on "regulator" page for those who want it....
Dale
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San Francisco - A Few Toys Short of a Happy Meal
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2009-12-11, 9:56pm
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Gentleman of Leisure
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What is absurd about all this is why somebody would spend about $169 plus shipping for a regulator/hose setup for a $15-$20 torch.....
Regulator (100psi)- 567 RD - $50
Pressure Gauge(200psi) - G-24 - $15
POL fitting for tank/regulator - P-W 795 - $14.50
Cylinder Adapter (for torch) - F-140 - $14.50
Hose (25 ft) HP-25 - $69.90
Sure its the ultimate hose/regulator setup for a HH.... But... It's about same cost as for a fuel regulator and hoses (fuel and oxygen) for good oxygen/fuel torch... IF one is going to go this far just go a little farther, get oxygen concentrator and a fuel/oxygen torch....
Dale
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San Francisco - A Few Toys Short of a Happy Meal
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2009-12-12, 5:10am
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Linda Linda Honey, lookit
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale M.
What is absurd about all this is why somebody would spend about $165 plus shipping for a regulator/hose setup for a $15-$20 torch.....Dale
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Because if you are like me, you dont always have $165 laying around. Its much easier to come by $30-$50 every now and then, so it becomes something that is pieced together in order to optimize the situation as best they can.
It's kinda like asking someone why they would buy a house, and then remodel it every few years. They may not have the initial $300K to lay out, so they buy the $150K house and through gradual improvements, they raise the equity in their home.
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2009-12-12, 7:52am
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I fart diamonds
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Location: Altamonte Springs, FL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MardiGrasGlass
Because if you are like me, you dont always have $165 laying around. Its much easier to come by $30-$50 every now and then, so it becomes something that is pieced together in order to optimize the situation as best they can.
It's kinda like asking someone why they would buy a house, and then remodel it every few years. They may not have the initial $300K to lay out, so they buy the $150K house and through gradual improvements, they raise the equity in their home.
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I think Dale's point is that HHs don't need a regulator. All you need is the torch and the hose. Why would you spend that kind of money on a regulator for it? If you're going to spend that kind of money, save up a few dollars more and get an oxy-fuel torch. The regulator is only about $50.
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2009-12-12, 9:57am
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Gentleman of Leisure
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MardiGrasGlass
Because if you are like me, you dont always have $165 laying around. Its much easier to come by $30-$50 every now and then, so it becomes something that is pieced together in order to optimize the situation as best they can.
It's kinda like asking someone why they would buy a house, and then remodel it every few years. They may not have the initial $300K to lay out, so they buy the $150K house and through gradual improvements, they raise the equity in their home.
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I understand, that is why I use my $28, 12 foot hose and have not bothered to do any improvements yet.....
Dale
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San Francisco - A Few Toys Short of a Happy Meal
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2009-12-13, 2:57am
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It is not my intention to promote any agenda. I am just trying to determine the actual situation because I consider some things posted to be speculative, assumptions, or often repeated with any substantiation lost.
While I did make some mistakes so that "all" of my points have been proven wrong, I maintain that my questions or points contained larger issues in the entire context of the thread.
I had some pages of comments written up, but in order to give the appearance of impartiality and to minimize the "noise", I am providing the following with only minimal captioning as necessary to explain the content. (Note: captioning precedes the photo.)
Note: disassembly of valve not planned since it is not really an issue
Temperature testing / flame characteristics not available in expected lifetime of this thread.
Comparison of (presumably) original HH, newer version HH, and MT245C
Valve body of original HH with greater adjustability
Valve body of newer HH and MT245C
No picture of original Hot Head orifice (too dark)
MT245C on the left
Possible new HH on the right, same as original HH
Orifice caps (original, newer, MT245C)
all with orifice ~0.30mm
Ignore the orifice size on newer hothead. In my impatience to retake photos, I destroyed the component.
Wires are inserted for clarity in showing orifice location.
Orifice caps (original, newer, MT245C)
Original and MT245C similar in profile only
newer gets synthetic gaskets both sides, original and MT245C are metal to metal
Original HH with "tortuous path" filtration, newer HH with mesh strainer, MT245C no strainer
Nozzle comparison
Attempt to show machining quality difference in MT245C
Air intake hole comparison
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2010-01-05, 7:54pm
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Senior Member
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The mail room has finally caught up with the holiday rush and I have my Hot Head parts. The first part is from a respected art glass supplier whom I will not identify because the supplier may be unaware of the difference. The second part is from Sarah at the Hot Head Source.
Note: I do not have a macro lens, so cannot show closer detail at this time.
The black line is a gasket of some resilient material.
I do not currently have a pin gauge so cannot report the orifice size.
The shadows in the cavity of the first orifice assembly are curly metal shavings left from machining. After taking the picture I touched the shavings gently and they fell out of the cavity, leaving a small ridge where they were attached to the assembly.
Other information for debate or rebuttal:
Earlier it was mentioned that flashback arrestors are not necessary with the Hot Head due to its design and low probability for flashback. After some research, I will say that not only are they not necessary, they are not appropriate.
The reason I say this is that the pressures used to operate the Hot Head, with or without a regulator are greater than the manufacturer's specification for flash arrestors commonly available in the United States. Specifications are not commonly available for all devices, but all flashback arrestors which had data sheets had a maximum pressure of 50 psig.
This statement needs some clarification because European installations apparently require flashback arrestors. Flashback arrestors by the English company Gas Arc are available in (approximately) 60 psig and 240 psig versions, and those are what are sold on the Tuffnellglass.com site. Also, there is a model by the German company Ibeda that is rated for (approximately) 60 psig and is sold by Artistryinglass.on.ca. Those rigs also require regulators which would bring the pressures down to where the flashback arrestors would be effective, so it is not my intention to debate whether requirements outside of the United States are reasonable or a conservative practice.
As a closing note, I have found a suitable pyrometer for measuring Hot Head flame temperatures, so I may be able to answer the question of, "What if you put the Hot Head replacement orifice in the $7.95 MagTorch?", sometime in the future.
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2010-01-08, 6:47pm
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Senior Member
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I just realized something else. The brand new MT245C has a cork gasket as opposed to the new Hot Head, which has a rubber gasket sealing the base of the torch with the bottle adapter. (Also there is a washer retaining the gasket, unlike the cork gasketed early version Hot Head.)
Also, there is some sort of restriction in the bottle adapter of the MT245C. It may be present or have an equivalent in the Hot Head, but that determination will have to wait until further disassembly.
Side by side comparison (Original HH, newer HH, MT245C)
Hot head versions
MT245C
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2010-01-25, 11:29am
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Junior Member
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Join Date: Jan 24, 2010
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So, whats the verdict on the performance of the MT245C? How does it compare to a true Hot Head?
I can clearly see the machining differences in the 2, but how does this effect the performance? Do such small differences make a big difference?
I know 35$ for a Hot Head is not huge money, but in these times, every little bit helps.
Please excuse my noobness.. I'm new to lampworking.
A.Dale
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2010-01-25, 11:52am
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I'm still waiting on my pyrometer (the vendor says it's in the mail). I hope to have results within a month or two.
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2010-01-25, 12:39pm
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Junior Member
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So, since you own both, I'm sure you've used both. When doing a side by side comparison, whats the performance difference?
I need someone who has time behind both to give me real reasons why the Hot Head is better.
If the difference is only a few degrees one way or the other, I'm going to save my 25$ and use it on glass.
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2010-01-25, 1:02pm
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Hot Glass Neophyte
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Join Date: Aug 06, 2009
Location: Mt. Pleasant, SC
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I am finding Hotheads are about $50 each in this area, or the $35 plus shipping if you find them at that price.
I just got a Magtorch and it didn't function at all. I was told to beware that many will be substandard in quality due to being inexpensive, but it is still a drag to order, get it and have to return it!
My Hothead continues to go out without warning and that is very frustrating.
So what's the answer if one can't afford the dual torch set-up?
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2010-01-25, 1:15pm
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Senior Member
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I agree that the most important comparison would be for an experienced user to give a side by side comparison.
However, I must say that I am not an experienced user. I provide all the equipment and materials, and set up the equipment and supervise, mostly from a safety standpoint. So far, I've only made a couple of beads while demonstrating techniques to new members.
So far, I have not put out the MT245C for club members to use since the Hot Head is a proven burner for this application. In my brief use of the MT245C, I noticed that it gave off sparks or little glowing particles.
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2010-01-31, 6:44pm
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This is incomplete because I'm out of time this weekend, but here are some preliminary results.
First, I have not figured out how to measure the flame temperature directly because the infrared meter only measures radiated surface temperature. So, for comparison, I am using a piece of stainless steel. For this trial it is located 2" away from the torch head. The fuel used was a 1 lb bottle of MAP/Pro (propylene).
The optimum field of view of the thermometer is a 1" circular area at 50" and the front of the thermometer was located 50" away from the stainless steel target.
This is the second-generation Hot Head adjusted as close to the shutoff point as I could get it.
The target temperature peaked at about 1200°F. Peak temperature is estimated, but I will have the maximum temperature function enabled for later tests.
This is the MT245C MagTorch adjusted as close to the shutoff point as I could get it. There is residue at the 2" mark of the grid due to residue from the stainless steel plate. The flame is smaller and has an orange tip. I was never able to adjust the Hot Head flame this small or with other than a blue flame.
The target temperature peaked at about 1070°F.
This is the Hot Head at full flame.
This is the MT245C MagTorch at full flame.
All tests were done using the same bottle. I did not take the temperature of the bottle at the start and during each test. Order of the photos: HH flame and target, MT flame and target, MT full flame, HH full flame.
I'll do this again when I have more time.
Other things I have planned:
– testing the original Hot Head
– testing the Hot Head with the screw in the handle (on disassembly, I have found that the orifice assembly is the same as in the MT245C)
– testing the MT245C body with the Hot Head replacement orifice.
– maybe some temperature versus distance readings
– maybe some comparisons with propane-oxygen torches
– testing the Hot Head with propane
– testing the Hot Head with MAPP (but probably not, since I don't have much left)
– measurements attempting to match flame length
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2010-02-01, 5:37am
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Hot Glass Neophyte
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DeAnza Member:
You sure do wonderful work. Thank you for all the time and trouble you have put into these tests and photos. They are rightly placed in this public forum for future reference.
Hopefully someone can connect the dots now on the info about performance with glass!
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2010-02-04, 9:29pm
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Senior Member
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Just tried my first soft glass beads tonight. There is something wrong with my orifice, so the flame is a little off, but that is because I am an abusive torch owner. LOL I used medium lapis and some bright yellow. This is alot easier than off mandrel. I am going to buy another dozen mandrels and use up my last 2.5lbs of morreti. Nothing looked reduced and I will try this pink that I have that reduces easily to test. TYVM, DeAnza.
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2010-02-04, 9:35pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shawnette
I picked up one at Menard's when I was in Indiana a couple of weeks ago. It was only $15, so I thought I'd try it out to see how it compared to a HH since it looks exactly the same. There were 2 versions; The one like Dale posted and one with a smaller flame. I bought the one that with the smaller flame but I haven't had a chance to to hook it up, yet.
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I also got one at Menards for $13 or $14. At first it was hard to light, but since then I've found that it looks and works exactly like a HotHead.
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Julie
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