Official Thread: Tink Electroforming Kits Q & A

[Tink]

Did you get your brass brush? How did it go? Pics?

[MaryBeth]

Yes - I did get my brash brush! I purchased a couple of brushes that fit my Dremel. I really liked the finish - I am not in love with my design - however.
I might post a pic later today.

I have some ideas for some more things to electroform - just need to make them. I need to blast myself out of my bead set, small bead rut. It's really starting to bore me.

[JanMD]

Some maximum nubbly electro. Perhaps I'm getting a little carried away with the patina solution.....

[Tink]

Noooooooooooooooooo! It's beautiful! I'm a patina freak, and I love love love what you've done with those!

I'm hoping the latest bunch of rectifiers gets in soon so I can ship out more kits. I love seeing what everyone done with this stuff!

[JanMD]

Thank you! (...taking a bow...) I ought to get your booklet this week and I am looking forward to it. Here is another over-the-top patina number. This one is really too much. Even I can see that.


JanMD

[MaryBeth]

Jan - I love that patina! It goes perfectly with the base bead! Care to share the tech you used for it?

[JanMD]

My method? Sure! I use Rio's "Midas Green Patina" solution (catalog #335-120). Other stuff -- nail brush, detergent, one old mayo jar, old bent mandrel, wooden skewer, copper foil, 9x9 pyrex cake pan, Renaissance Wax, polishing cloth.
Steps:
1- Polish the tops of the tiny knobs that you want to remain shiny (I use silicone polishing wheels on the flex shaft but you could use fine sandpaper or whatever) and then scrub the whole piece with a nail brush and detergent. Dry it off.
2- Get out an old bent mandrel and make a small hook at one end. Hang the bead on it and trim the mandrel so the bead will hang in the middle of your empty mayo jar. Put a quarter inch of the patina solution in the bottom of a mayo (or similar) jar. Use an old brush to brush the solution all over the copper parts of the piece. Precision isn't important at this point. Just coat it well.
3- Using the small hook, hang the mandrel on a wooden skewer centered over the top of a glass jar, with the bead hanging down inside.
4- Cover the jar with close-fitting foil. (I use heavy copper foil from the craft store, which is kind of molded over the skewer and around the rim. I'm not sure what the patina solution would do to regular tin foil.)
5- Put the jar in a 9x9 pyrex cake pan and put the whole thing on top of the hot kiln. (I'm sure the pyrex pan part isn't absolutely necessary, but I am afraid of a heat-cracked jar and a glopped-up kiln top. So better safe than sorry.)
6- You may have to flip the bead over once during the cook-time and re-coat it with the patina. But once the patina color is about twice the density you like (about two hours or so) remove the bead and scrub again with the nail brush to get off all the excess patina. Air dry very well.
6- Seal it all with Renaissance Wax. I use a very stiff bristle brush to get the wax into (and then out of) all the crevasses. And then I polish it, first with paper towels, and then with a polishing cloth.

JanMD

[MaryBeth]

Thank you so much!

[KathyB]

so....

This weekend I made beads that are especially for electroforming. I'll post results.

I have to admit I'm feeling nervous about setting up my kit!

Here we go!!!!

[Tink]

Kathy, you'll do fine. I promise! John and I will be out of town this weekend from Thursday through Monday, but the folks in this thread have a bounty of knowledge that I know they'll share with you if you have any questions or problems.

Once you have done it once, you will breathe a sigh of relief. It's really very easy. You'll see!

Not to put any pressure on or anything (lol) but I'll be looking for pics of your electroformed work here when I get home Thursday night

[JanMD]

Question: Why do the holes in the anodes have to be above the top of the solution? What possible difference could that make in the process?

Answer: (smacking forehead!) What a silly question! The reason that the holes in the anodes (and more vitally, the wires that attach them to the conducting rod) have to be outside the solution is so they won't vanish. So they won't lose material to the deposition process and disappear.

Duh!

JanMD

[JanMD]

I have received Tink's booklet, the one that comes with her electroforming kit, and it's very informative. Thank you, Tink!!!

One comment on the page 4 section entitled Preparing your work for Electroforming: I have had no problems electroforming on beads that have been neither sandblasted nor etched. If the bead is totally clean and dry, I have had no trouble with the conductive paint staying in place.

On the contrary, the challenge for me is to devise a design that will ensure that the electroformed portion will stay in place. As I think about the design of the electroformed element, I keep having to remind myself that -- in the end -- the copper is not and will not be attached to the bead. Rather, it is a cage or frame sitting on the surface of the bead. Consequently, the copper element has to be conceived so that it wraps around the bead in such a way that it stays snug. Tink makes note of this when she says that "Your design should also wrap around the piece to a certain degree to help hold it in place."

I have found that sending an electroformed arm from one cap to the other, all by itself across the face of a big lentil, will not work. The dang arm won't stay snug enough to the face of the bead (whether or not the bead is etched), particularly if it has a bend in it. The bend catches a bit on some fabric or on something else and is bent away from the face of the bead. Arrgh. A mega-cage (such as I have done on the Big Blue Patina World Bead) is one way to make it all snug. In doing so you lose most of the bead underneath the cage.

The technique that works well for me is creating undercut knobs at the top and bottom of the bead, and then electroforming these, as I've done in the bead where I show the back and front. The undercut holds the caps snug very efficiently.

Last comment on Tink's book: While she credits Kate Fowle Meleney for being a trailblazer, in her list of Resources Tink does not mention Kate's Kervin book -- The Enamel and Electroform Decorated Beads of Kate Fowle Meleney -- which has a whole how-to section on electroforming on beads. Tink also neglects to mention Kate's website, which shows many examples of electroformed beads in the galleries.

But again, my thanks to Tink for her hard work on this booklet and for helping to get the good word out on this fascinating technique.

Bravo, Tink!!

JanMD

PS – I’d also like to recommend another book, entitled The Penland School of Jewelry: Master Classes in Jewelry Techniques (Martha Le Van, 2005). There is an entire 18-page ‘class lesson’ in it on electroforming, featuring Maria Phillips. And there is a 6-page gallery at the end of that chapter that shows the work of other jewelry designers who use electroforming. Excellent book!

[KathyB]

WOOT!

HA HA HA!! I did it!

I started the solution around 10pm Saturday night (not a good idea). So I had to get up all night to check on the progress. I might add I didn't HAVE to... I was just excited and couldn't sleep.

Here's the results- patina'ed, waxed, and finished. I am so inspired!!!

[KathyB]

The finished pieces are not small (the spike one is two inches)- and when you add the copper, these are not light weight pieces. I really enjoyed all of the process. I used 3 different patina methods and I think I like the last one best. It's a natural red wine vinegar and salt solution set in the sun. The top two pieces are patina's I got from RIO Grande- green and red brown. The pieces took about 2 hours to "coat" and I did get a shiney penny like look- especially the first bead. Must be virgin solution.

The last one had a hard time plating the bumps on the inside of the design. You can see where it sorta peeled off. I'll be more careful next time.

QUESTION: If I want to redo that bead- do I have to peal EVERYTHING off? All the copper bits and start over?

I'm really happy with my first shot out of the box. I'll post more as I go.

I can't wait to make more... I have a zillion ideas now.

[MaryBeth]

Kathy - those are gorgeous!

I have a question about your bead in the second photo. It the electroforming truly just in the center like that without anything wrapping around the bead? Or is there a lip around the circle that I can't see?

I have some design ideas where I also want to do a center design but I thought there had to be some part of the design wrapped in such a way to anchor the whole thing.

As far as your question about redoing a bead - I redid one and I just peeled the whole design off as it was too loose anyway. But if your "bits" are stuck tight I don't see why you couldn't electroform over them again.

[Tink]

Originally Posted by JanMD

Last comment on Tink's book: While she credits Kate Fowle Meleney for being a trailblazer, in her list of Resources Tink does not mention Kate's Kervin book -- The Enamel and Electroform Decorated Beads of Kate Fowle Meleney -- which has a whole how-to section on electroforming on beads. Tink also neglects to mention Kate's website, which shows many examples of electroformed beads in the galleries.

I hope to get caught up on this thread today. We've been in and out of town so much that I've gotten a bit behind. I apologize.

As I was perusing my email, this post came through and I wanted to comment. PLEASE realize that this is NOT a book. It's a booklet. I've written books, and I have written booklets. This is not a book. As I say right on the front page:

This booklet is intended for use in conjunction with electroforming workshops and kits offered by Tink Martin. It is not meant to be a complete instruction manual. Please familiarize yourself with the process and inherent dangers before attempting to electroform. These instructions and any associated kit are offered in good faith, with the assumption that you will use common sense and care in applying these techniques.

Ok. That said, I wanted to mention that the list of sources I give at the end of the booklet are not meant to be all inclusive or exhaustive. If that were the case, the list would have gone on forever, as I investigated and devoured many, many, many books on the topic while learning to electroform.

Yep. I sure do credit Kate for being a trailblazer:

First, a thank you to Kate Fowle Meleney. Her generosity, knowledge and trailblazing nature landed me firmly on the path of electroforming. Thank you, Kate!

I then go on to list URLs to two of the articles she has written on the topic. To be honest, I figured that since the two articles have pretty much the same information as in the book (as related to electroforming) and that you can access them online, and that there are TONS of pictures of Kate's gorgeous electroformed works in those articles, PLUS the fact that Kate's URL is also listed there that that would be enough.

I will be happy to include that information in future printings. Apologies if anyone was upset by this.

[Tink]

Regarding the etching/sandblasting of glass in preparation for electroforming: I have been able to bypass that step ONLY when nearly the entire piece is being electroformed, and the design so totally enrobes the glass that it cannot help but stay on. I have found that etching/sandblasting does give more freedom of design, at least in my experience. As with anything, your experience may differ. All I can offer to folks is what my experience has been.

Kathy, those are some luscious works!!! About your question: Did you just want to add more layers to the design you already have laid down, or do you want to change the whole design?

[KathyB]

MaryBeth- I wanted an "endcap" look. One side pealed off the other stayed on. Why? Dunno. It's a mystery. I'm going to do some more with this one side look too- I like it alot! It does NOT go all the way through. I don't think you can tell from the photo, but the bead shape is "boob"-like. (I couldn't think of a correct name for the shape. sorry!) It pokes out like a bicone wannabe. Maybe that is helping it stay on? Again- to me it's a mystery.

Tink- some of the parts I wanted plated didn't plate, but I don't want to add more copper onto the parts that did. Mostly I'm wondering if the patina solution will contaminate my plating solution if I plop it back in.

[Tink]

Ahhh... Now I see! Kathy, if you have already applied the patina, I would (at the very least) get rid of the patina before going back into the solution.

[misfit]

Originally Posted by JanMD

<<<I also really love the cloisonne beads I've seen, and I was wondering, if you could substitute the metal inlay step with electroforming?>>>

Yes! Artists electroform the ridges onto the copper sheets, instead of etching or making an inlay sheet. Melissa Huff is an artist that uses electroforming to create the areas for the enamels: http://www.state.il.us/agency/iac/IA...uff/Photos.htm

JanMD

Unfortunately doing that renders champlevet as a finished product or so close as to be of no great concern to any but a purest. Cloisonne is different. The two enameling processes are different enough that classing them as each other is about the same as classing lampworking and slumping as each other.

A.

on further consideration one could also acheive the effect of Basse Taille with electro forming. with or without the use of other enameling techniques. One may even be able to achieve Plique-a-jour with electroforming. I even see a way where it would be possible to use electro forming to create peices with limoge enameling and Plique-a-jour with or without the presence of other styles. unfortunately cloisonne is again very different than any of these other enameling tecniques... and no amount of consideration on the method shows any way of creating cloisons with electro forming.

[JanMD]

Kathy! Kathy! Excellent work! Those three pieces are all great. I really like the way you patterned the little tiny balls on the first two. Very nice! It gives me so many ideas! I am in major mojo-electro mode now where I have about five pieces waiting to go into the solution. And about five more in my mind, waiting to get out. It's SO MUCH FUN to see everyone else's work. This is great!! (And with the "boob"-like piece, if you use a spot of epoxy to keep the breastplate on, I won't tell!)

Tink, again I have to thank you for your outstanding booklet and all the info there. It was very generous of you to offer to disaggregate the booklet from the kit and allow folks to buy it separately. There is much in your booklet that I didn't know, even with having read everything about electroforming that I can get my hands on. I highly recommend it to everyone. It's laughable that you might suspect that I was "upset" by anything in (or left out of) your excellent booklet. On the contrary. I thought it was super. I am very sorry that I didn't make that 100% crystal clear. I thank you once again, Tink, and tip my hat! (By the way, it was very brave of you to venture out into the world of the electron flow theories, the atoms, and the charged ions. Bravo! But again, in my opinion, you can't ever know too much about anything. Every bit of info is a plus.)

Everyone who is interested in electroforming on glass beads or small vessels ought to buy Tink’s booklet. It is a well-thought-out introduction to this aspect of our art, in my opinion. With this booklet, some imagination, and the electro kit, you will have A LOT OF FUN, I guarantee you! It’s a hoot!

JanMD

[JanMD]

Oh, wait! I forgot to ask what I originally set out to ask. Has anyone tried to plate over the electroformed copper? I was thinking that silver or gold plating on the copper might be cool to try, provided the process wasn't too poisonous.

Has anyone out there tried "pen plating"? What is it, exactly?

JanMD

[KathyB]

Ok...

Do you guy pour your soution back into the container when you're done or do you keep it in the beaker?

Also- one thing I looked all over for was time. How much time does it take to plate the average bead to a average thickness? To get the look I got it took 3 hours. Of course you have to take into account my repeatedly taking the bead in and out.. in and out.. in and out.. of the solution to look at it.

[Emily]

Originally Posted by JanMD

Oh, wait! I forgot to ask what I originally set out to ask. Has anyone tried to plate over the electroformed copper? I was thinking that silver or gold plating on the copper might be cool to try, provided the process wasn't too poisonous.

Has anyone out there tried "pen plating"? What is it, exactly?

Absolutely. Ann Davis, who with Kate Fowle Meleney is one of the pioneers of electroforming on beads (and like Kate, is a total sweetheart), teaches silverplating and gold pen plating in her electroforming class. You can use the same rectifier. For silver plating, you need the plating solution for silver and (obviously) anodes of fine silver rather than copper. The technique is pretty much the same as for the copper electroforming, but much quicker because you're just depositing a thin layer of fine silver over the copper.

Pen plating is done with a device that's something like a felt tip pen with a gold-containing solution as the "ink." The pen connects to your rectifier and you draw with it on your silver. I can't recall exactly why, but I remember that Ann said that you should use the gold plating pen on fine silver, not on sterling. If you want to add gold touches to a sterling piece, you can give it a quick electroplating of fine silver first. (Sorry -- my notes from Ann's class aren't in the same place I am right now, so I can't check them to refresh my memory on why pen plating on sterling isn't a terrific idea.)

If you have the Rio Tools & Equipment catalog, take a look at the pen plating stuff -- it may give you a better idea than my "sort of like a felt tip pen thingy" description does.

[JanMD]

Emily, thanks for the answer! Since I posted that question, I ordered the 'Midas Guide to Plating' booklet from the Rio catalog and it does indeed have a section on pen plating. The booklet is at the studio, but as I recall there was much made of having to 'pre-plate' some metals before plating with the good stuff (gold and silver) to prevent tarnish from coming up from below. So that's most likely why you are discouraged from plating on top of sterling.

Ann lives here in metro DC and I am going to call her to see if I can get a personal tutorial on all of this. The description of her electroforming class that she has on her website sounds outstanding -- http://www.anndavisstudio.com/electroforming.htm.

Where did you take her class? Was it at the Gathering?

JanMD

[glass_beads]

I have a couple of simple Q's that I think any of you can answer for me. My kit arrived yesterday but I'm waiting on my Rio order with the solution so I have till then to get all my ducks in a row. I read though the tink manual and now have a couple of basic easy questions.

* Where do I find distilled water? The last time I saw distilled water was 1986 in Chemistry class

* How long (approx.) do the copper anodes last before you need to replace them? I realize this will vary but based on your personal experience how long?

* I have several Q's about the copper paint. How long do you use that one container -- approx how many pieces can you paint before you need more -- just trying to figure if I should order more right away or if the little jar is deceiving and lasts far longer than one would think. If you use distilled water to work with the paint, do you find yourself dipping the brush into the paint first then adding a smidgen of distilled water to it then to thin it out in a seperate spot (not sure if this is coming out right) trying to figure out how super careful you need to be when using the distilled water with the paint...will it contaminate the paint if you dipped your brush into the water then the paint is I guess what I'm asking.

I have to head to the big "city" for an appt tomorrow so I'm hoping to pick up all the odds and ends I need (like coffee filters and distilled water).

Thanks so much....I have learned so much from this thread already!

[JanMD]

I found gallon jugs of distilled water at the grocery store. If it isn't there, try an old fashioned pharmacy.

Or, as a last resort, raid the supplies cabinet at your local high school chem lab. (Do they even still teach chemistry in high school anymore?)

JanMD

[glass_beads]

Thanks Jan. Nobody in my small town carried it but I ventured down river (half hour away) to Walmart and they had plenty of it! I got all the odds and ends I will be needing (funnel, coffee filters -- we use one of those gold filters so obviously I don't want to be using the same one to make coffee as I use to strain electroforming "soup"...lol -- got containers to hold the supplies and the Glad container to hold the distilled water, etc). Then when I got back I set everything up and today's the day my order from Rio should get here. So today I will paint my beads and this afternoon or tonight I should be ready to fire up the soup! Yippee!

[glass_beads]

Troubleshooting:

(I think I may have a series of minor issues that are leading to a poorer quality of electroforming and I'm hoping that if I run this by you, you might be able to help me correct where I'm going wrong)

* Although I etched my beads, then cleaned them well in distilled water, then allowed the paint to dry for 12 hours (on the first bead) overnight for the remaining beads, wore my gloves while painting them so I wouldn't get any oils from my hands on them,yada yada yada -- I still think I may not have adequately painted them. Here's why:
- The first bead I painted I had runny paint -- I hadn't realized some areas of the jar are thicker consistency than others so I am certain that with my drippy paint on that particular bead that I may have gotten paint inside the bead hole so when I went to move the wire holding the bead to reposition it, it was too firmly adhered to the bead at the bead holes. (Mistake #1 I guess...lol) But, despite my first error, I was pleased with how the electroforming was looking and how it was coming along. At any rate, I cleaned up and packed up for the night and figured I'd try again the next day with a different bead.
- Day 2 (today) I reread the manual in case I'd overlooked any fine details the day before, I selected a bead with a nice opaque paint coating and set it on it's way. It has been in the bath all day, but when I went to reposition the wire all the electroforming came off along with the paint underneath. I'm not entirely sure where I went wrong with this bead. So I repositioned the wire and got going again -- later in the day the same thing happened. Again, I was happy with how the electroforming was turning out and I suspect it was something in the manner in which I painted the bead, but I could be wrong.

Moving on to other observations:
* is it normal for there to be copper colored "sludge" at the bottom of the beaker when pouring the soup back into the container (via funnel and coffee filters of course -- I suppose this is what the purpose of the filters is, just wanting to make sure).
* I clearly have far more copper sludge in the bottom of my Glad distilled water container than on my first 2 bead attempts -- is this normal?
* Now that the paint on my beads has dried I have noticed some areas on a couple of them that are less than opaque -- may I add more paint to a bead or must I clean all the existing paint off and start over?
* When I opened my jar of paint, using the end of my brush I pushed that hard thick layer of paint down into the jar with the remaining paint -- should I have discarded that thick layer? I guess I was thinking along the lines of dried up bead release that you scrape off the edges and it reconstitutes with mixing. I shouldn't second guess myself, I'm quite certain that was okay -- but it also makes me wonder, should I mix it up with a toothpick or something?

I know I'm neurotic Even though I messed up with my first two beads I am having so much fun. I feel like a mad scientist! I think my Tink-manual is nearly dogearred already I have reread that thing so many times...I hang on her every word! I know there is a learning curve to anything new and I'm having such a fun time with this experiment. I have so many ideas buzzing about my head. I've even been sketching out new bead ideas and that's something I haven't done in YEARS! So anyway, if it sounds like I'm moving in the right direction even though I've had some mistakes just reassure me -- if you see something obvious that I'm doing wrong please give me a nudge into the right direction.

And really, despite my errors so far, I am thrilled with the areas on the bead that have turned out nice. Eeeeee...it's so exciting!

Tink you are my hero!

[JanMD]

Tink is a hero to all of us! I'm hoping she'll check in and answer all our questions.

<<<It has been in the bath all day, but when I went to reposition the wire all the electroforming came off along with the paint underneath. >>>
I re-position my bead vis-à-vis the wire once every hour or so. I had been noticing a tiny un-electroformed bald spot on the edge of the hole, where the wire had been touching the paint. To fix it I had to touch-up with the paint, let it dry overnight, and give it an additional bath. For a number of reasons that you can imagine, this was a big pain in the rear. So now I just re-position the bead on the wire every hour or so and now there aren't any more bald spots!

<<<is it normal for there to be copper colored "sludge" at the bottom of the beaker >>> I have the same thing, and I assume it's normal. Tink? Is it? Is it okay to leave it down there as a quiet sediment or must it be filtered out?

What is that stuff, anyway?

<<< may I add more paint to a bead or must I clean all the existing paint off and start over? >>> I am eager to see the answer to this one. I just add more paint and let it dry overnight again, with no ill effects. Tink, is this okay?

Kate suggests that you always continue your paint down a little bit, down inside the hole, both to help anchor the whole copper design to the bead and to make sure you have a good extensive area for the wire to come into contact with the paint. The added bonus is that the copper skin will cover any tiny nicks in the glass around the hole! Which I sometimes get since I am a little slap-dash with the diamond reamer on the wireless Dremel when I am cleaning the hole.

JanMD