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Safety -- Make sure you are safe! |
2011-10-09, 6:33am
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Senior Member
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Join Date: May 27, 2007
Location: north suburbs of chicago
Posts: 177
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Propane outside during a Chicago winter?
Any suggestions on whether it's ok for me to place my propane tank outside during a Chicago winter (can get to 15 below zero + with windchill). I'm thinking of having a hole drilled through my front porch floor so that the tank is outside and run the hose through the floor. But it's so flippin cold here in the winter--are the tanks and hoses ok doing this? Will post a pic of my studio set-up so far. Also have to get the right ventilation but have an awkward space to work with.
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2011-10-09, 7:09am
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Ready to hit the road
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Join Date: May 06, 2006
Location: Zimmerman, MN
Posts: 2,418
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I'm in the middle of Minnesota, so we get a little chillier than you do, and I have mine on the front deck in a metal garbage can (drill holes in the bottom so if there's a leak, the gas won't accumulate). The hose runs through a caulked hole in the side of the house to my torch.
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2011-10-09, 7:40am
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Gentleman of Leisure
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Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: A Little Bit West of Yosemite Valley
Posts: 5,200
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Tank and supply pressure should be ok with tank outside, if cold becomes real problem place tank in insulated container and use something for a heat source like simple light bulb.
IN most locals it is against most building codes to simply drill hole through wall and put "hose" through... Most communities/cities/counties/state codes require it to be metallic piping with a gas approved shut off valve on outside where it enters house, and on inside at end of "gas piping" and before any "hose" (rubber) and propane pressure can be no more then 10 psi.... Check local building code so you can be in compliance..
http://www.artglassanswers.com/forum....php?f=7&t=208
Dale
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San Francisco - A Few Toys Short of a Happy Meal
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2011-10-09, 3:08pm
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Alaska Boro
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Join Date: Dec 10, 2009
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 1,065
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Should not be in issue in Chicago unless your local temperature drops to a -44 F. Now in northern Minnesota when it can get to a -50 F without windchill, then you may have a concern. Here is a chart of propane vapor pressures at different temperatures.
F PSI
-44 0
-30 6.8
-20 11.5
-10 17.5
0 24.5
10 34
20 42
30 53
40 65
50 78
60 93
70 110
80 128
90 150
100 177
110 204
Overall, one should be good for a 5 PSI torch setting even at -30 F.
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2011-10-10, 5:00am
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old fart
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Join Date: Apr 18, 2006
Location: st paul mn
Posts: 778
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it does not matter. no tanks inside larger than 1 pound. maybe you should switch to natural gas/
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Mark Wilson
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2011-10-10, 5:05am
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Jun 14, 2005
Location: The Rocky Coast State!
Posts: 6,620
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Yep, I'm in Maine and ya can't say we're too balmy warm here in January. I have no issues with the pressures in my tank and absolutely, they are outside.
Sue
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Sue Walsh
The past is history,
The future is a mystery
and the present is a gift.
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2011-10-10, 7:11pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: May 27, 2007
Location: north suburbs of chicago
Posts: 177
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thanks for all of the suggestions guys--all great. I'm open to having a natural gas line installed. Hoping it wouldn't be awful financially. My bigger concern would be finding the right person to do it correctly and safely and then what type of regulator is right, etc. Is it just the same regulator I have on my propane tank now? Love the idea of tramping outside in 0 degrees flipping that switch. By any wild chance does anyone know someone in the Chicago area capable of doing this?
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2011-10-10, 7:45pm
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Gentleman of Leisure
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Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: A Little Bit West of Yosemite Valley
Posts: 5,200
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With a "nature gas" installation, in simple terms its tapping into existing line and extending it to your studio...
There is issues like codes compliance and quality of workmanship ... But you will have to do research on code issues and screen for best person to do the work.
You most likely will not need a regulator, because natural gas is usually regulated at the meter by the equipment the gas utility provides.
So like I mentioned above its just matter of extending it to your studio and have plumbing done to local codes.
Dale
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San Francisco - A Few Toys Short of a Happy Meal
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2011-10-10, 8:47pm
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Alaska Boro
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Join Date: Dec 10, 2009
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 1,065
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Contact your local HVAC, plumbing or heating shop. They all need to have the correct city license to install a NG line or extension. They will also be a charge for a city inspection to make sure the work is up to code.
Depending on the area, NG pressure will be in the range of 11 WC (.4 PSI). It could be as high as 2 PSI but most likely not. One can check by looking at the data posted on the NG meter. It should list the WC number.
Check with others for your brand of torch to make sure that it runs fine on NG. Have used both the Scorpion and Cricket on NG and they perform well IMO.
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2011-10-12, 11:28am
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Curmudgeon Engineering
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Join Date: Feb 15, 2006
Location: Near Seattle, WA
Posts: 1,723
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Alaska,
I think your numbers are from a standard table and as such I would say are correct. But do these numbers take into account the drop in temperature of the propane due to its evaporation? We have all seen the propane tanks freeze up in use so there is a further drop in temp possibly not accounted for by the table numbers.
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2011-10-16, 11:50am
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Now part of the Dark Side
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Join Date: Jul 02, 2010
Location: North Central PA
Posts: 966
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If you are just running a torch you should be fine with a 20lb tank. I run a 20,000 BTU heater and I have frozen up the end of a 20lb tank in the winter. Most heating appliances require a 100lb tank to avoid this issue.
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Roy
Hot glass does not crack.
Unless it is glowing and drippy, hot glass looks like cold glass.
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2011-10-16, 12:32pm
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Member
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Join Date: Sep 15, 2011
Location: Northern Colorado
Posts: 48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheng076
Alaska,
I think your numbers are from a standard table and as such I would say are correct. But do these numbers take into account the drop in temperature of the propane due to its evaporation? We have all seen the propane tanks freeze up in use so there is a further drop in temp possibly not accounted for by the table numbers.
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FYI, a BBQ cylinder has enough thermal mass to moderate the cooling effects of the evaporating propane . We tried a 1 lb cylinder through a regulator in hopes of using 1 lb cans indoors. But the thermal mass was so small that the can would get cold, we'd adjust the regulator up, the flame went up, can got cooler, readjusted the reg, ad nauseum. It just wasn't stable enough to use.
PS- Followed Dale's advice and went to natgas indoors. Got plans approved, permits, etc. Our gas company (XCEL in Colorado) bumped our pressure from 1/4 psi to 1/2 psi with no charge! In some areas you can get 2 psi, but our neighborhood's pipes are old. Needed to add a regulator on our furnace, but that was all. Works great! (GTT Scorpion & 2 oxycons)
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2011-10-17, 10:46am
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Curmudgeon Engineering
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Join Date: Feb 15, 2006
Location: Near Seattle, WA
Posts: 1,723
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Cabermon,
I think you proved my point. A BBQ cylinder outside in the Chicago winter may be at such a lowered temp that the cooling effect of evaporization could reduce the evaporization in the tank below a useble level.
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2011-10-19, 9:13am
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Member
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Join Date: Jun 14, 2007
Location: Chicago NW Suburbs
Posts: 30
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Just wanted to say -
I am in the Chicago suburbs and have used a bbq size tank outside for the last 3 winters. I am on a cricket and a minor - never had a bit of an issue regardless of the outside temp. That is unless you count freezing from the open window for makeup air.
Michelle
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2011-10-19, 10:32am
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Jun 14, 2005
Location: The Rocky Coast State!
Posts: 6,620
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirius214
Just wanted to say -
I am in the Chicago suburbs and have used a bbq size tank outside for the last 3 winters. I am on a cricket and a minor - never had a bit of an issue regardless of the outside temp. That is unless you count freezing from the open window for makeup air.
Michelle
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lol- I hear ya! My back size is cold while my front side is warm.
Sue
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Sue Walsh
The past is history,
The future is a mystery
and the present is a gift.
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2011-10-19, 11:48am
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Jul 15, 2009
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,035
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirius214
Just wanted to say -
I am in the Chicago suburbs and have used a bbq size tank outside for the last 3 winters. I am on a cricket and a minor - never had a bit of an issue regardless of the outside temp. That is unless you count freezing from the open window for makeup air.
Michelle
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lol exactly this. I live in Ohio, the tank stays outside on the deck in all weather. I have mine covered with a plastic tub. The lid sits on the deck, the propane sits on the lid, then the tub part goes over the tank. It leaves a two inch gap around the bottom but works great. And I too freeze with the window open but when they put the new furnace in they put a vent right behind where I sit to torch so I am hoping that helps with the temp a bit lol.
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Sonja
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