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Safety -- Make sure you are safe!

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  #1  
Old 2015-04-20, 11:21pm
sangita sangita is offline
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Default ventilation through a window with a screen

So moving to a new space again. This time it is inside the house. I have a window that I can open, a security fly screen that I cannot open. I can put my desk holding the torch right in front of the window. I cannot cut a hole in the wall or screen because I'm not allowed. There is a ceiling fan and an aircon unit in the room. Not ideal but no other choice. How can I make the ventilation work?
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  #2  
Old 2015-04-21, 4:56pm
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At the most basic level, you can put a box fan with spacers to fill in the rest of teh window space to pull air away from you. Just make sure you have a window/door somewhere behind you that you can open for make-up air.
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  #3  
Old 2015-04-22, 10:49am
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How cold or hot does it get where you are?

Any chance of opening a window in the same room behind you?


Will the air con unit allow fresh air to come through it into the room?


Look over the symptoms else where in this safety thread about irritated eyes, scratchy throat and or dizziness or mild head aches.
Any of these can mean you are not getting enough fresh air into the room and also not getting enough of the fumes out of the room.

The ceiling fan is only going to mix up the good air with the bad fumes so don't run it when your torch is lit.




Either way, you are probably going to have to limit how big your torch flame gets as well as how long you will get to run the torch before taking a several hour break between sessions.

ETA: I just looked and I don't think cold weather is going to be an issue for you.
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Last edited by Speedslug; 2015-04-22 at 10:51am.
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  #4  
Old 2015-04-22, 4:00pm
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I'm sorry to say but remove the screen or find a new place to work. Box fans are not safe to use. ACs are not safe to remove fumes either. You need real ventilation or you are poisoning yourself and everyone in your home.
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  #5  
Old 2015-04-22, 6:20pm
sangita sangita is offline
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No window in that room. It is a large room. Can open a window in other parts of the house. Thinking about similar to ESC's (thank you for that ESC) idea but using a bathroom vent thingy with a funnel tube. You know it is frustrating to have a passion and no diy skills in a new town. Thank you Phil, I will look at the symptoms. Jeremy I know you are right. I will not use the ceiling fan. Any other ideas?
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  #6  
Old 2015-04-22, 9:44pm
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Do you have no access to the out side that does not have a screen?

I have seen set ups with panels that fit into sliding glass doors rails.


But yeah, a box fan will not work because it just does not have the power to over come a 5 mile an hour steady wind even on the best of days.
You need a dedicated high volume ventilation system.

Whether you can push your ventilation through a window screen is another question that I can not answer.

You will need a safe source of make-up air to supply as much as you push out.

ETA: Make up air needs to come from at least 10 feet away from where you are dumping you ventilation outside.
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Last edited by Speedslug; 2015-04-22 at 9:46pm.
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  #7  
Old 2015-04-23, 1:24am
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Hi again,
I should clarify my earlier post. There is one window in that room only. Today I did some "work" on that window screen such that I can push the bottom out about a foot and then pop it back in. So what do you think about this new plan: I buy one of those bathroom vent fans. I found one that moves 450 cubed meters per hour. It has a metal cover in front and is enclosed. I stick that in front of the torch somehow. I attach a 10 foot duct thingy (the type that looks like a fat aluminum flexible pipe) to back of the fan and dangle the other end out the window and as far as it will go?
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  #8  
Old 2015-04-23, 1:26am
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The room is about 12 square meters
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  #9  
Old 2015-04-23, 1:39am
sangita sangita is offline
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Would this be better?

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/6-INLINE-...item4194801d53
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  #10  
Old 2015-04-23, 2:57am
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If I'm not mistaken, I thought flexible ducting was a no-no. It hinders air flow, right?
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  #11  
Old 2015-04-23, 5:04am
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Aye, Flexible ductwork creates so much turbulence inside it that you would need a huge diameter and then you would need monster fans to feed the large diameter.

Let me see if I can find the posts you need ... BRB.
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  #12  
Old 2015-04-23, 5:35am
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OK first thing is that the numbers listed on the bathroom fans are almost always over stated.
If it says 450 CFM you will be lucky to get 200 once you hook it up to even short runs of smooth wall hard ductwork.

No one calls them on it because at the worst it is bathroom gas and that does not make people permanently sick.
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  #13  
Old 2015-04-23, 5:57am
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Next: Here is a thread
http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=265188

That directed me to two other threads and both are worth reading slowly so that you understand everything said.
There is some tech explanations that you really should understand so you can make the right decisions when you are picking out your stuff from what is available to you.
This one has diagrams
http://www.artglassanswers.com/forum...php?f=22&t=150

And this one goes into the thinking involved with protecting your self and your family with out throwing money out the window.
http://www.artglassanswers.com/forum...php?f=12&t=273

My gut tells me to tell you to get at least a 600CFM fan ( more is better and too much is probably not possible when you live on a budget) and move your bench as close to the window as you can with as much straight sided duct work as possible in your finished project. If you use any flexible duct work at all get the rigid kind and not the stuff that crinkles up inside the tube. All those ruffles slow the air down so much you will need 5 times the CFMs just to get the gases to the window.

The discussion about "capturing the ball of fumes around the flame with a hood" of some kind and getting fresh air to come over your shoulders and into your breathing zone is worth reading twice or three times.

Read as much as you can and then come back and re-read it all. You only have to understand it once and then you can decide how you are going to do things and then you can forget about it because it won't change once you do it the first time.

Do keep asking questions. The only thing that get tiring is hearing about someone getting sick because they did not ask questions when they had them.
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Last edited by Speedslug; 2015-04-23 at 5:59am.
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  #14  
Old 2015-04-23, 9:14am
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A question I have is where are you holding your propane tank, or are you using a Hothead?
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  #15  
Old 2015-04-23, 11:34pm
sangita sangita is offline
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Thank you Phill I will now read everything at least twice. Alexis, I am keeping the propane outside. I have quick connectors. So the plan is open the window chuck out the vent tubing and the propane hoses. when done pull them back inside.
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  #16  
Old 2015-04-23, 11:35pm
sangita sangita is offline
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For some reason I am forbidden to view the art glass posts
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  #17  
Old 2015-04-24, 2:25am
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I don't know which posts you are referring to.

My search for art glass turned up a bunch of stuff but nothing specific.
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  #18  
Old 2015-04-24, 9:08am
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Perhaps you could cut a hole in the screen even though you'd have to replace it when you move out? A new screen is just a few bucks.
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Old 2015-04-24, 1:31pm
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How about a picture of the window so that folks know what you are talking about.
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  #20  
Old 2015-04-24, 4:49pm
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If you can pop out one corner of the screen about 5 or 6 inches you could get one of the transitions shapes that change a round duct to a rectangle and slip the edge of the rectangle just an inch or two below the screen.

You would still need to make some kind of block to fit between the window sill and the window with a round hole for the round part of the transition piece with the duct work connected to it.
This will prevent any of the exhaust from coming back in the window.
You could fasten duct, the blocking and the transition altogether and just pop the corner of the screen and stick the contraption in the window and close the window down on it to hold it in position.
Then just take it out when your done torching.

Having pets does not mean you have to banish them from the room. Just keep the glass fragments under control, put a little vinegar in your quench bucket to keep them from wanting to drink out of it and keep a water spray bottle or squirt gun handy and "persuade them" to stay a way from the lit torch or the sand in your mandrel planter.

That way you can keep the door open for make up air to come from somewhere more than ten feet from your exhaust window.
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  #21  
Old 2015-04-25, 12:18am
lwilson21 lwilson21 is offline
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Here's a reversible window fan that mounts inside a window so you can still shut the window. It should allow you to leave the screen intact.

http://www.amazon.com/Lasko-2155A-El...et_feature_div
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  #22  
Old 2015-04-25, 9:44pm
sangita sangita is offline
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OOh loved the window fan awilson21. However I made other purchases already. Thank you Phil, Alexis and Alaska. So after reading and reading, surfing and driving I decided on a temporary solution i was able to purchase via Ebay that incorporates many of your suggestions.
I purchased an 8 inch inline fan, a reducer, 10 meters flexible ducting, HVAC tape and a muffler for about $200 including shipping from 3 different hydroponics suppliers on Ebay.
So the idea is to open the window, then prop open the bottom of the fly screen with a bit of wood. Have the reducer right in front of the flame end and the ducting out of the window as far away as it stretches. So that the sucked up bad air is vented far from the open window
Secondly have a pedestal fan aimed outside towards the top of the open window for secondary ventilation.
The room does not have a door. And weather permitting I can open windows in other rooms.
Still many issues I need to sort yet (help appreciated):
The inline fan can go outside or close to the reducer as per my readings which one should I do?
Where does the muffler go? if the inline fan is inside does the muffler go between the reducer and fan or the other side of the fan? If it is outside?
I could not find any non ribbed ducting. None on Ebay. I live in a very small town where the hardware store had no ducting at all. So got the 10 m of ribbed on ebay and will probably buy another 10m but will give my self 2 weeks to find some non ribbed in the meantime. Then I can extend out the window about 18 meters.
There are short PVC connectors available locally which I will use if/as necessary where needed for bends which I will avoid as much as possible.
Need to prop the reducer on something to position correctly. Will know once I set up the torch.
The gap created by opening the screen I need to cover with something (an old towel till I get something better) because insects are bad here.

Phil thank you for your patience. Everyone all additional comments are welcome.
We move into the new house Tuesday so hopefully the stuff arrives just as I finish unpacking.
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  #23  
Old 2015-04-25, 9:48pm
sangita sangita is offline
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Phil I was thinking that with the duct being far away enough from the window I wouldnt block the whole window? Am I wrong?
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  #24  
Old 2015-04-26, 3:20am
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The end of the duct where the ventilation mixes with the air out side ( the exhaust end) only needs to be 3.3 meters away from any air that might come back in to the room.
The experts tell us thet that is enough room for the exhaust gases to get diluted into the fresh air out side.

The blocking I had suggested between the bottom of the window and the sill with a hole in it to put the duct through would have let you run the ductwork to the bottom edge of the screen with out the need for having any ductwork hanging outside the window.
By blocking the bottom of the window you would prevent any exhaust from getting back in the room and the suction side (at the torch) would force your make up air to come the other rooms in you house and over your shoulders ensuring that you keep breathing uncontaminated air.
The blocking would also keep the bugs from coming in that window.
If you want to you could use Perspex or Plexiglas as blocking to let light in.

You may find that keeping the bugs out with a towel wont work for you.
There are just so many of the darn things out there and it seems that they have nothing to do all day long but look for a way to get in to your house.


I am at a loss of what to tell to about the "muffler" you mentioned.

Any thing that is going to reduce the amount of noise from your fan is also going to reduce the flow of air through it. I am sure that there are ways to use mufflers but I think they have to do with increasing the volume of air the fan can push to make up for the amount the muffler slows it down.

I would not use a muffler myself unless the fan was extremely noisy and then I would look at getting a different fan.

As for where to place the fan, I would put it at least a full meter from the end of the flame so there would be no chance of the fan getting any heat from the flame but inside the room.

I would put the reducer the reducer 25 cm from the end of the flame.
You can use what ever is handy to hold the reducer up. I have seen them screwed to coffee cans with the cans filled with dirt to give them some weight and placed at the back edge of the bench. I have also seen them hanging from two wires that get hooked to the middle of the window when it is open. these can be un hooked and taken down when you want close the window again.
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Old 2015-04-26, 3:25am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sangita View Post
Phil I was thinking that with the duct being far away enough from the window I wouldnt block the whole window? Am I wrong?

I guess I am confused about this.

The only blocking I have been thinking of would be at the very bottom of the window. Say a piece of plywood with a hole the diameter of the ductwork cut in it. If the ductwork were 8 inches across then the plywood only needs to be 12 inch high to leave two inches below and above the hole and as wide as the window is to fit into the bottom with the window closed down on it.
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Old 2015-04-26, 9:11pm
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hmm wished I hadn't bought the muffler now. Oh well. Thank you so much for all your help.
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  #27  
Old 2015-04-26, 10:55pm
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Hey, give it a shot. If it makes that much difference you will notice it.

Is there any chance they will take it back? They can't say yes if you don't ask.
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Old 2015-04-27, 5:27pm
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I will try it thank you. I will report my results in about 2 weeks once I get moved in. thanks a lot Phill.
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  #29  
Old 2015-04-27, 8:18pm
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Good Luck.

Moving is one of those wonderful high points in life,


Along with root canals and bankruptcy.
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  #30  
Old 2015-05-04, 6:41pm
AnneVanderlaan AnneVanderlaan is offline
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Cool Fans

Hi I am a new bee and I am thinking of taking a fan and setting it backwards behind me. And having the window open in front of me. Yet then after reading everything about the propane tank needing to be outside I am thinking I will have to do this either on the front porch or in the garage with the door open. I make metal with a torch inside. Not sure what to do.
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