Did something stupid and paying for it

[Diane Gates]

I was in my shop Saturday night and it was hot outside (I live in Florida) so I had the window air conditioner on. I have 6 windows and a door in my workshop which is 16' x 20'. The windows were closed with the exception of a box window fan. I have a Barracuda with tanked Oxygen and propane. I started coughing and did not stop working right away. My husband came out to check on me after about an hour and was very upset that I was still working. He stated that the smell was very strong inside the room. He immediately opened all windows and doors to get the odors out.

Today I am still having a hard time taking a deep breath.

I usually only work with the doors and windows completely open and have had no problems. It was 87 degrees in the workshop before I turned on the air conditioner.

Is the only option a hooded vent?

I am not a stupid person but really blew it this time.

[gwacie]

Sorry you hurt yourself. IF you dont' want to utilize your six windows and fans then you definately need a hooded vent system to exhaust the room. There are lots of ventilation posts here, have you researched it yet?

[Peach Blossom Beads]

Originally Posted by color happy

Is the only option a hooded vent?

YES. That's always been the ONLY option. I do not understand the people that know that they need ventilation and just don't bother. I also don't understand the people who don't have it and them don't bother to open their windows. It's obvious so many people don't take this seriously and I think with the large increase in lampworkers we're going to be hearing about sickness, poisoning and death quite a bit in the not-to-distant future.

Don't torch again until you become responsible enough to do so. It's very simple... if you don't have ventilation, you should not be melting glass.

I hate sounding so mean and I think maybe you learned a lesson, which is unfortunate (the WAY you learned it), but I really can't stand seeing people getting sick and don't want to see anyone else die of metal poisoning. It infuriates me, especially since the information is everywhere!!! Like right here!

Good luck.

[ginkgoglass]

This discussion brings up another question -- lets say she puts in a hood and then keeps all her doors and windows closed. Is the makeup air from the ariconditioning enough to continuously bring fresh air into the room?

I normally have my garage door open or at least the side door when I have the vent hood going. Its going to be over 100 degrees here this week and it would be nice to get a window unit going!

Lana

[Bear Rampant Glass]

Make up air must be fresh air.

[InspirationToolworks]

Most air conditioners do not pull in fresh air. They only cool the inside air.

Oh, and there has already been a death of a lampworker from metal poisoning when playing with metals without ventilation. The link is somewhere on LE.

You must have ventilation of some type and make up air.

-Jeff

[Peach Blossom Beads]

Originally Posted by ginkogal

This discussion brings up another question -- lets say she puts in a hood and then keeps all her doors and windows closed. Is the makeup air from the ariconditioning enough to continuously bring fresh air into the room?

I normally have my garage door open or at least the side door when I have the vent hood going. Its going to be over 100 degrees here this week and it would be nice to get a window unit going!

Lana

My air conditioners actually pull air OUT, as I'm sure everyone else's does. I noticed this when DH was smoking. We'd turn it on and the smoke would automatically head straight for the ac and be vented out.

You need FRESH make-up air. There are a ton of threads here about ventilation and make-up air. I suggest everyone that has questions do some reading.

ETA: Also, if it's too hot to torch and you need open windows and can't run A/C, then don't torch. It's easy. You don't want to not have enough air coming in and you don't want to pass out while playing with molten glass over an open flame. Wait til it cools down, that's all.

[Bear Rampant Glass]

Sorry, I didn't elaborate more. I was feeding the baby at the time. A/C does not = fresh air. You must have fresh air for your make up air.

[Diane Gates]

I thought the window box fan would have been enough. It is 24" x 24". All other times I have only used all open windows and had no previous issues. I agree it was stupid and I am paying for it. I know other people have successfully used just the box fan with air conditioning.

[ginkgoglass]

Don't beat yourself up -- we've ALL done stupid things, be kind to yourself.

I'm skeptical about whether or not an air conditioner in a window brings in fresh air or not, if it doesn't then why is it in the window? Otherwise you could just place it on the floor. I'd like to see some data to back up these statements. Lana

[Hayley]

Actually the window box fan isn't enough even with all the windows open, especially if you use a lot of glass with metal content (any silver glass), silver leaf, enamel, etc.

There are lots of threads here on LE on how to pipe in fresh air under your work table. By doing so with a properly installed ventilation system, you keep the temperature in the room (heat or AC) stable.

[squid]

I think the main reason for a window unit to be in a window is so that the condensate that is caused by the cooling process can easily be drained outside. There are units that can be used in a room that don't go in the window, but you have to empty them periodically - the same way you used to have to empty catch pans under fridges.

[ginkgoglass]

I found this on a website just by googling air conditioner window unit make up air or something of that sort. I admit that I really want the window unit to bring in fresh air so I am biased,LOL.



# Air Flow
– Adjustable louvers direct the air up, down, right and left. Some models have motorized louvers to blow cold air around the room. Most models have the ability to switch from fresh air to recirculating. Switch to outside air when you want to air out the room, switch to recirculate on the hottest days when the air conditioner is struggling to cool the room.

If anyone finds anything else please post it. Thanks, Lana

[cheeky monkey]

and it's VERY IMPORTANT to make sure that you are not pulling the 'bad air' right past your face, it needs to go up and away.........

[evilglass]

Originally Posted by ginkogal

Don't beat yourself up -- we've ALL done stupid things, be kind to yourself.

I'm skeptical about whether or not an air conditioner in a window brings in fresh air or not, if it doesn't then why is it in the window? Otherwise you could just place it on the floor. I'd like to see some data to back up these statements. Lana

You can get window units that pull from outside. I've got one. It's got a thing you flip to make it go from recirculating to fresh.

That's why I have it.

I do have a vent hood, and all the goodies, and I still had a minor issue yesterday.

You live (hopefully, LOL), you learn, you do better.

[glass_girl]

Originally Posted by ginkogal

Don't beat yourself up -- we've ALL done stupid things, be kind to yourself.

I'm skeptical about whether or not an air conditioner in a window brings in fresh air or not, if it doesn't then why is it in the window? Otherwise you could just place it on the floor. I'd like to see some data to back up these statements. Lana

For crying out loud. We all know how a/c works. You don't need "data". Yes, it brings air in, but it also takes it out. Believe it or don't... who cares?
A/C is not to be used for make-up air.

[glass_girl]

Originally Posted by color happy

I thought the window box fan would have been enough. It is 24" x 24". All other times I have only used all open windows and had no previous issues. I agree it was stupid and I am paying for it. I know other people have successfully used just the box fan with air conditioning.

WHY would you think it's enough? With all the info on ventilation, again I ask WHY? If it was enough, why would people such as myself be spending a bunch of money to install a blower and a hood with certain specs? I wish a box fan was enough!

And you don't really know if you've had any previous issues. You could be poisoning yourself and hurting your lungs and you just don't know it, YET. It doesn't take coughing to mean that you're breathing in the wrong stuff. You may not cough til it's too late.

[evilglass]

Originally Posted by glass_girl

WHY would you think it's enough? With all the info on ventilation, again I ask WHY? If it was enough, why would people such as myself be spending a bunch of money to install a blower and a hood with certain specs? I wish a box fan was enough!

And you don't really know if you've had any previous issues. You could be poisoning yourself and hurting your lungs and you just don't know it, YET. It doesn't take coughing to mean that you're breathing in the wrong stuff. You may not cough til it's too late.

You know, very few people respond well to folks being superior and condescending to them. If you want to be right cool, you are. I'm sure they know you are. If you want folks to listen to you, though, being nice helps.

She made a mistake. She owns it. She's trying to learn to do better. Learning tends to involve questions.

[ginkgoglass]

Originally Posted by glass_girl

A/C is not to be used for make-up air.

Why not, if we now know it blows fresh air in to the room?, and please back up your statement. And sure, yes, we do need data, otherwise we just go back and forth with people's anecdotal experiences and opinions. Thank you, lana

[InspirationToolworks]

School is now in session.

Here's some data:

The Second Law of Thermodynamics

(See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_thermodynamics)

Simply put, you can't make something colder without making something else hotter.

You can't have an air conditioner working in the middle of a room with no vent to the outside world. It will only make the room hotter. Go outside and stick your hand above the outside of your air conditioner OR the back of your refrigerator to see what I mean.

That said, some AC's clearly give you the option of bringing in outside air, and cooling it as it comes it. Not very efficient, but you will get fresh air. However, that fresh air has to go across some very narrow spaces to get cold. Narrow spaces mean high drag. Try breathing through a soda straw to see what I mean.

You want your make up air to have very little drag, otherwise your vent system is working too hard, and the air might not come from the AC vent, it might come form the gas water heater flue, bringing carbon monoxide into your home.

Yes, the AC is designed to blow the fresh air across the drag of the cooling coils and into your room, but it is not designed to blow enough air to feed your vent system as well.

Well, unless you paid an HVAC company to install an AC system that was designed to do just that.

Any questions?

And, I'll add my vote for keeping this thread on a positive note. We all make mistakes.

-Jeff

[squid]

Thanks for the lesson Jeff!

I'll add a vote for not bashing someone who is posting a mea culpa to begin with .

[ginkgoglass]

Originally Posted by InspirationToolworks

School is now in session.

That said, some AC's clearly give you the option of bringing in outside air, and cooling it as it comes it. Not very efficient, but you will get fresh air. However, that fresh air has to go across some very narrow spaces to get cold. Narrow spaces mean high drag. Try breathing through a soda straw to see what I mean.

You want your make up air to have very little drag, otherwise your vent system is working too hard, and the air might not come from the AC vent, it might come form the gas water heater flue, bringing carbon monoxide into your home.

Yes, the AC is designed to blow the fresh air across the drag of the cooling coils and into your room, but it is not designed to blow enough air to feed your vent system as well.

Well, unless you paid an HVAC company to install an AC system that was designed to do just that.

Any questions?

And, I'll add my vote for keeping this thread on a positive note. We all make mistakes.

-Jeff

Ok this makes sense to me, thank you very much for the explanation -- I used to be a research scientist so I tend to not believe something just because someone says it without evidence and especially if I don't like the tone in which it is said.

We can all learn from others mistakes, we've all made them. Color Happy, Thanks for being open enough to post your experience. Hope you are feeling better soon.

Lana

[IF-Designs]

well i see jeff explained it much better so blah .... lol but please be safe you can make a ventilation system for youself pretty inexpensively if you look around here some people used some galvanized upside down wash basins and good inline hydroponic fans or squirrel cage fans and some rigid duct work I think unless you have to run your duct work a significant distance to exhaust you could pretty easily build a suitable set up for yourself for $100-150 and your health really is worth that pittance....I am not a rich lady I do not have money coming out my wah wah I dont live in a huge fancy arse house or anything but I do think that protecting your body to whichever means possible within your grasp you should even if it means cannabilizing an old range hood or something.....

[Dale M.]

I just got to comment here too..... Just agreeing with pretty much what others have already said.... Its a tough lesson, perhaps others reading this will learn from this....

Dale

[sleekbeads]

I had a few questions about venting, but after reading the way the original poster was treated in this thread, I think I'll take it somewhere else.
Jeez, kinda rough to someone coming here to ASK questions, don't ya think?
Yikes!

Jo

[Bear Rampant Glass]

I know this probably sounds like a cop-out, but I just wanted to say that I have a baby that demands a lot of my attention most of the time. So, if my post seemed unfriendly or terse it was absolutely not meant to and I wholeheartedly apologize. It is just difficult to type around grasping fingers sometimes. I think it took a lot of guts to own up to what happened and ask for help to understand and correct the problem. I hope you get your situation fixed and get back to having fun torching.

[sleekbeads]

Jeannette... my comment was not aimed at you.
Jo

[squid]

or mine

[Dale M.]

Originally Posted by sleekbeads

I had a few questions about venting, but after reading the way the original poster was treated in this thread, I think I'll take it somewhere else.
Jeez, kinda rough to someone coming here to ASK questions, don't ya think?
Yikes!

Jo

NOPE....... Safety is serious........ Either you want to be safe or not... This is not a flowers and wine and cheese thing on patio topic. This is your safety... IF you want flowers and sweet things go to the "family room".

So come join us, get dirty and help others, swing that hammer, build ventilations and get propane tanks outside ...

Do not be offended here, because we only tell it like it is...

Be safe!

Dale

[squid]

Originally Posted by Dale M.

NOPE....... Safety is serious........ Either you want to be safe or not... This is not a flowers and wine and cheese thing on patio topic. This is your safety...

To be truthful, there is no flowery conversation here... IF you want flowers and sweet things go to the "family room".

So come join us, get dirty and help other, swing that hammer, build ventilations and get propane tanks outside ...

Do not be offended here, because we only tell it like it is...

Be safe!

Dale

I don't think anyone wants flowers, blah blah blah, but being pretty much told you're an idiot when you've already posted your acknowledgement of being stupid - ie "I did a stupid thing" - is unneccessary and doesn't further the discussion or encourage people to ask questions.