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Tips, Techniques, and Questions -- Technical questions or tips

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  #1  
Old 2013-03-02, 9:29am
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Default Murrini Epic FAIL

ETA I'm pretty sure now it was the clear and not the murrini that caused the cracks you see here.
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"And all will turn to silver glass, a light on the water, grey ships pass into the west." Annie Lennox

Last edited by Elizabeth Beads; 2013-03-04 at 5:46pm.
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  #2  
Old 2013-03-02, 9:37am
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Hey Elizabeth.

Sorry that happened to you I don't no what murrini that is or who made it. I looks a bit like it has silver glass in it? Maybe its just having a bad reaction.

It will be interesting to see if this murrini was made with a different Coe.

Good luck,

John
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  #3  
Old 2013-03-02, 9:42am
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Wow!! That's quite the reaction!

I wonder if one of the murrini makers accidentally threw in some 90 by accident. If your supplier makes 90 as well, then maybe that's what happened, one got mixed into your 104. Hopefully it was just one, anyway!
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  #4  
Old 2013-03-02, 9:44am
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You sure it's not 96? It looks like Raku and when I make Raku murrini, I use Uroboros black. Definitely not compatible with 104. (Raku murrini made with 104 black is, though.)
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Old 2013-03-02, 9:46am
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It also looks like maybe the murrini was made with Multi light witch I think is a Reichenbach color coe 96 and would work on the surface of a but may not like being encased.
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Old 2013-03-02, 9:51am
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What color did you use the murrini over? It might be your murrini is okay but the glass under it is one that has known incombatibility issues.

Sue
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  #7  
Old 2013-03-02, 2:58pm
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The clear is Uroboros 104. The murrini are on the surface, not encased. I don't think a murrini made with 96 on the surface would fail that way. Bullseye probably would but I don't think Bullseye makes a color like that. Maybe off- spec StrikingColor but still I don't think it would make such a radical difference.

I found two more of them mixed in my stash and stuck them on a test bead. I'll see what they do on that one when they come out of the kiln.
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"And all will turn to silver glass, a light on the water, grey ships pass into the west." Annie Lennox
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  #8  
Old 2013-03-02, 3:21pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elizabeth Beads View Post
The clear is Uroboros 104. The murrini are on the surface, not encased. I don't think a murrini made with 96 on the surface would fail that way. Bullseye probably would but I don't think Bullseye makes a color like that. Maybe off- spec StrikingColor but still I don't think it would make such a radical difference.

I found two more of them mixed in my stash and stuck them on a test bead. I'll see what they do on that one when they come out of the kiln.
I don't think I knew Uroboros made a 104. I thought they were 90. Just in case it is 90, that would explain it but if it's 104, I'm clueless.

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Old 2013-03-02, 5:30pm
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Uroboros recently started making 104 cane.
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  #10  
Old 2013-03-02, 7:21pm
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I have had serious cracking issues with Uroboros 104 if I encase heavily, which I do for my faceted beads. The way I have found to get around the cracking is to start with a core of the Uroboros clear.
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Old 2013-03-02, 7:37pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elizabeth Beads View Post
The clear is Uroboros 104. The murrini are on the surface, not encased. I don't think a murrini made with 96 on the surface would fail that way. Bullseye probably would but I don't think Bullseye makes a color like that. Maybe off- spec StrikingColor but still I don't think it would make such a radical difference.

I found two more of them mixed in my stash and stuck them on a test bead. I'll see what they do on that one when they come out of the kiln.
hmm. 96 to 104. Assuming COE variance of 2-3 points in either family which could be in opposite directions is a pretty good recipe for incompatibility.
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Old 2013-03-02, 8:02pm
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Could the murini be Jameylynns. also I mad 3 beads with the new Uroboros clear and they all cracked even the ocean one with no silver glass.
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Old 2013-03-02, 8:06pm
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Nope not mine. I have never made a batch with that many black stripes. I usually end up with about 10. I don't think I've sold to Elizabeth, either.
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Old 2013-03-02, 8:07pm
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Have you participated in an exchange, Elizabeth?
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  #15  
Old 2013-03-02, 8:20pm
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That looked to be a very lovely and unique bead. I'm so sorry that happened to your hard work. I hope you are able to resolve the issue. Not feeling confident about some of your materials can be unnerving. If you try that design again will you post images of it for us to see?

Andrea
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  #16  
Old 2013-03-03, 4:41am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elizabeth Beads View Post
The clear is Uroboros 104. The murrini are on the surface, not encased. I don't think a murrini made with 96 on the surface would fail that way. Bullseye probably would but I don't think Bullseye makes a color like that. Maybe off- spec StrikingColor but still I don't think it would make such a radical difference.

I found two more of them mixed in my stash and stuck them on a test bead. I'll see what they do on that one when they come out of the kiln.
If I interpret this correctly to mean you're implying that one of my off-spec colors might be farther off in compatibility than a 96 COE glass would, you are incorrect Liz. None of the off-spec glasses I've released (or not released) would be off more than the equivalent of a few COE points from a "standard" 104 COE. Nothing even close to as far off as 96 would be to 104, let alone more than that. That doesn't mean that a murrini made with one of my off-spec glasses might not crack if mixed with the wrong glass (I call them "off-spec" for a reason), just that none are nearly as far off-spec in compatibility as a 96 COE glass would be to 104.

Brad
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Last edited by glassmaker; 2013-03-03 at 4:58am. Reason: clarification
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Old 2013-03-03, 7:47am
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I've made and used murrini with Brad's offspec cane and have never had a failure. Mine are most often fully encased.

Fear not people I keep those for myself.

Just to clarify, when I used it it was for stripes on the surface of the entire gather. If it was the main component, it might be different.... maybe.

I don't think that looks like SC. My bet is MC or MCD.
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  #18  
Old 2013-03-03, 8:55am
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I've encased literally dozens of beads with Uroboros 104 without problems including all kinds of silver glass. I blew through 4 lbs. of it and already ordered more. I've used murrini on a number of them.

I've never bought murrini from Jamie Lynne. I've been in one murrini exchange, but I've kept those murrini separate and have never used them.

Brad I absolutely did not mean to imply that it was off-spec SC. I was just pondering possibilities and as I concluded, I didn't think it would make that radical a difference even if it was.

I've watched Trey Cornette use a chunk of 96 Raku rod (not cane) to make murrini and use it on 104 beads. There's enough silver in 96 Raku, MC and MCD that they should all be fine on the surface of 104.

The test bead I made yesterday is fine so far but it took this one a couple of days to crack so I'm going to watch it and see what happens. I didn't encase it so its not really a fair test anyway.

I think this may be destined to remain a mystery - and hopefully a one-time fluke!

Andrea here's another bead in that design.
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"And all will turn to silver glass, a light on the water, grey ships pass into the west." Annie Lennox

Last edited by Elizabeth Beads; 2013-03-03 at 2:46pm.
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Old 2013-03-03, 9:37am
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Just because two glasses are the same COE in no way means that they are 100% compatible, just look at the fusing forums.

Bullseye...Compatibility of Glasses
http://www.bullseyeglass.com/images/...chnotes_03.pdf
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Old 2013-03-03, 10:17am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by houptdavid View Post
Just because two glasses are the same COE in no way means that they are 100% compatible, just look at the fusing forums.

Bullseye...Compatibility of Glasses
http://www.bullseyeglass.com/images/...chnotes_03.pdf
Absolutely david. Of course there are others factors as well but mixing COEs absolutely does increase the chances of failure and if the actual numbers are far enough apart it most certainly will produce a finished product with residual stress which is never good.
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Old 2013-03-03, 11:57am
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This peaked my memory and 2 of the beads I had crack weird like that were with Urboros clear with a cz put on the top. But I have no idea why they cracked. I didn't encase the cz after putting it on.
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Old 2013-03-03, 12:06pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat View Post
This peaked my memory and 2 of the beads I had crack weird like that were with Urboros clear with a cz put on the top. But I have no idea why they cracked. I didn't encase the cz after putting it on.
If there is a glass to glass interface that is a potential failure point. No surprise.
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Old 2013-03-03, 4:11pm
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Thank you for posting the second bead Elizabeth. It's such a lovely optical illusion. May I ask what blue you used for the bead? My DH wants me to make a fish in a shade of blue that looks like the color of a car he had that was painted a color named Electric Blue. The color of your bead is the closest thing I've seen to it. Sorry to go off topic...

Andrea

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Old 2013-03-03, 6:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elizabeth Beads View Post
I've encased literally dozens of beads with Uroboros 104 without problems including all kinds of silver glass. I blew through 4 lbs. of it and already ordered more. I've used murrini on a number of them.
Did you start a new batch of Uroboros for this bead? I luckily only made one bead with Uroboros 104, it came out of the kiln ok but cracked a couple of days later. This is a bead that I've made many times before with Effetre, Lauscha and Reichenbach clear and never had one crack. I don't know whether it's a batch thing but I won't be using it again.
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Old 2013-03-03, 6:42pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elizabeth Beads View Post
snip...

There's enough silver in 96 Raku, MC and MCD that they should all be fine on the surface of 104.

...snip
Um, huh? I don't mean to pick on you Liz, but that statement doesn't seem to make sense. It sounds like you're saying that more silver in a glass makes the compatibility better with glass of a very different COE. (Which is not the case.) Can you please clarify? I would let this slide, but there is so much misinformation floating around the lampworking community about glass compatibility that adding more to the pile isn't going to help.

Brad
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Last edited by glassmaker; 2013-03-03 at 6:47pm.
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Old 2013-03-03, 10:50pm
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Andrea - I think that glass is Clio because that is what I mostly use but I wouldn't swear to it.

Denise - I've been using my new batch of Uroboros for a couple of weeks.

Brad- I'm not an expert or chemist, I am just repeating what I have been taught (and validated by personal practice), as summed up in this quote from the Val Cox frit website:

Quote:
The metal oxides that give furnace glass its intense color also make it more elastic. This means that Val Cox frit is compatible with Moretti/Effetre/Vetrofond (104COE) and Bullseye (90COE) as long as you use it in moderation. A conservative rule of thumb is 5% of the weight of the bead. [All of Val Cox Frit is made with premium furnace glass (96coe).]
I would not however extrapolate this to mean that a 104 glass, even one with high silver content, could be used on the surface of 96 and certainly not on Bullseye.
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Last edited by Elizabeth Beads; 2013-04-13 at 8:34pm.
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Old 2013-03-03, 11:07pm
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Hi Liz! I'm pretty sure that's one of our murrini in that first photo. I am so sorry this happened to your beautiful bead! I do hope it's not the murrini that caused the problem. These things can be so difficult to pinpoint. This particular murrini used StrikingColor glass in it. I've don't believe I've ever purchased an off-spec batch from Brad so I don't think the problem stems from that.
I will happily refund your purchase price for the murrini, Liz! I'll try to find your order to see how many packs of this you bought.
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  #28  
Old 2013-03-04, 6:47am
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Lori - no need to refund, you are sweet to offer. I doubt it was the murrini at this point, and look how pretty it is. I'll probably order more.
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Old 2013-03-04, 8:23am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elizabeth Beads View Post
I would not however extrapolate this to mean that a 104 glass, even one with high silver content, could be used on the surface of 96 and certainly not on Bullseye.
Good judgment here. Ignoring good practice because it works sometimes in certain situations does not make it a recipe for success. We also are doing disservice to those who come into the forum as beginners with relatively no experience or knowledge and therefore cant make these judgments for themselves. I apologize for being a broken record on this but this is basic to learning to work this material successfully.
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Old 2013-03-04, 8:44am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elizabeth Beads View Post
The test bead I made yesterday is fine so far but it took this one a couple of days to crack so I'm going to watch it and see what happens.
wait... are you saying that even after annealling compatibility cracks can happen days later? That just creeps me out...
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