Problem: regulator or flashback arrestor?

[MikeAurelius]

My comments in red:

Originally Posted by CarlisleGuy

I have to say what I did because it is a fact and may help to save someone's life someday. I do not make these statements to sell torches, flashback arrestors, or any other product. If I stopped working for Carlisle today, I would still argue these points the same way.

I'll bet you sleep better at night because of that, right?

Considering AuraLens is a supplier of torches, glass, safety glasses, and other items, I am not quite sure how you would consider your opinion to be as an "Independant" safety writer. Which is a large part of the problem. Your opinion weighs in more heavily than I beleive you realize. For you to post in a Safety Forum that, using flashback arrestors in surface mix torches only makes you "feel" more safe, is a disservice to the flameworking community. Consider that someone you influence could someday be hurt by your words (literally).

I *ALWAYS* consider the impact of my words when I write them. Your trite little comments about my words coming back to haunt me sometime in the future are just that, trite, especially coming from the manufacturer of pre-mix torches who, by his own writings (above) apparently knows nothing about the inner workings of surface mix torches. I take torch safety very seriously as you would know if you have been paying attention to *anything* I've written in the past 10 years. It's interesting to consider that you've been missing in action for the past year or so, and only now come out of the woodwork......getting fiesty about things you apparently know little about, and posting comments about YOUR torches in threads about another manufacturers torches....but let's stick to the subject at hand on this one, shall we?

Oh, and there is a *HUGE* difference between being a supplier and a manufacturer, just in case you weren't aware of that. I'm a manufacturer of protective eyewear, but a supplier of everything else in your list. I am not beholden to any one particular manufacturer. I choose the products I wish to carry with care and a mind towards the safety of my customers.

By your own words, I am a manufacturer. So I suppose I have seen more instances of these kinds of issues than yourself.

- I have seen a surface mix torch have a flashback, the hoses blew off the unit, and the hose spewed flame like a fire breathing dragon. The user in this case had his hair and shirt caught on fire. He suffered 3rd degree burns on 40% of his body. Counting in my head the other cases like this one where a hose burst or burnt through on a surface mix there are 13 cases in 10 years that I can recall.

- I have seen a surface mix torch with a hole burnt through the side of it that came from a fire within the torch. Actually I have seen that 3 times in 10 years.

I will not name those companies or individuals involved, as that would be inappropriate and damaging to others.

You know, that's always the case when someone is loosing an argument -- they always fall back on the old "I cannot name names" excuse. And it really is a pathetic excuse, so old, so worn out, useless, really. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Oh, and by the way? Burn throughs are not flashbacks. Just thought I'd clear up that little misconception of yours.

You are right though... I have not had any experience where the tank blew up. However I would consider the above examples to be "dangerous", don't you.

Actually, since you provide absolutely no proof that these so-called examples ever took place, no, I don't consider them to be dangerous at all. I consider them to be figments of your imagination.

[MikeAurelius]

Originally Posted by SL Beads

I am still very confused about the order of shutting off the system. Mike and Dale have two different ways about it. So, which should i turn off first, fuel tank or regulator? Or does it make any difference which way you follow? But, then I still don't know why I broke two regulators so quickly. I wonder if the flashback arrestor is my culprit, too. Another question with regard to shutting off the system. Is it dangerous for me to turn off the oxygen valve but leave the fuel cintinue to burn while I shut off the tank? When the fuel is completely burnt off, then I back off the T-handle. I don't remember where I learned this method of bleeding , but I have been doing this for awhile. Could this be the reason I am having regulator problems? Obviously I am technically challenged to the extreme extent. I am so hopeful that this current problems will be behind me and get back to safe beadmaking soon. Sachiko L.

Unless I mis-keyed something awhile back, I've always advocated the following procedure:

Torch off

Tank(s) off

Open torch valves to release pressure

Back off "T" handle on regulator(s)

Close torch valves

Backing off the regulator before turning off the tank valve leaves pressure on the high pressure side of the regulator, which is not good for the diaphragm.

[Dale M.]

Mike and I are in agreement in this process (torch-tank shutdown). Wording may be different, but essentially we are saying same thing...

Dale

[ziggys]

CarlisleGuy;Some of things I will write will completely contradict the advice of others in this thread.

SNIP: to save space.

Thank you for taking the time to write such an in depth post about frashback arrestors. You obviously have given this subject a lot of thought and feel very strongly about the use of them.

Your right about Mike A's opinion carrying a lot of weight simply because of who he is. There are others too, like Dale M., and Mark Wilson who are known for being experts by people who have been on WC or LE for a time.

I really appreciate the amount of time spent by the safety gurus to answer questions over and over again. I don't retrain this stuff well, and don't even have a clue many times, so I keep coming back for answers in order to get it right.

I think many of us rely on them to tell us how and what to do in order to be safe. If one of these experts tells me there is the something I can do to keep me and the people who live around me safe (and alive!) I personally feel I should seriously consider following their advise.


However if something were to ever go wrong, I won't be pointing a finger at anyone other than myself. (Not that I feel like the Carlisle guy was saying otherwise.)

Safety is a bigger deal to me than I would have ever guessed since I have always been a risk taker by nature. Maybe it is because it has the potential to also seriously harm others. But mostly I think it is selfish reasons.

Melting glass is my passion. I get so much out of it, that if I ignore the obvious and sometimes not so obvious ways of doing so safely, my enjoyment is greatly diminished. I would do just about anything to keep that from happening. So I will always ere on the side of caution.

If only one expert says I should use or do something that makes sense and sounds reasonable to me, then I'll do it, just in case. As to flashback arrestors, I don't know for sure that I don't need them, and it sure sounds like I do, so I will get them, just in case.
Angela

[MikeAurelius]

Angela -- good post. It echos what I've been saying about these devices. If they help you feel safer working, then by all means, use them. I've never advocated *NOT* using them, just that for surface mix torches, they are not necessary nor required.

[ChrisCamac]

Angela - Thanks for your post. Quite well put.

Mike - I am still having a hard time understanding your position and points, but I guess we will have to come to an agreement to disagree. You may feel that I have no knowledge about flameworking, torches, or other equipment, but that's just your opinion. During my posts, I do not beleive that I attacked you or your integrity. I simply questioned how you are choosing your words and your positioning in the community. You sure seem quick to trounce me though. Those that know me, know better. If you ever find yourself in the need for help in the way of combustion or torch related issues, I would be happy to help, and perhaps over time you will change your mind about my level of knowledge.

BHHCO - I apologize openly for so quickly jumping on to the defensive with you and your line of questioning. I made the assumption that you were looking to simply undermine my credibility, and that was not the case. We both pushed some buttons, and I for one hope we can find a common ground to share information in the future. After all, it is a unique field we work and play in, with very few published data sources of great relevance. Only by multiple sources working together can we hope to demystify flameworking as a science.

[MikeAurelius]

Originally Posted by CarlisleGuy

During my posts, I do not beleive that I attacked you or your integrity. I simply questioned how you are choosing your words and your positioning in the community.

Interesting backpedaling........

For you to post in a Safety Forum that, using flashback arrestors in surface mix torches only makes you "feel" more safe, is a disservice to the flameworking community. Consider that someone you influence could someday be hurt by your words (literally).

<emphasis was mine> And this isn't attacking my credibility?

How about a complete retraction and an apology?

Actually, the way you've handled this entire exchange between myself and Bill tells me a lot about you, your relative knowledge, and your character.

[ChrisCamac]

Mike:

You have trivialized a safety item by indicating that it would only make you "feel" more safe when used with a surface mixed torch, when that is not the case and cannot be a fact in dispute.

If this is not a "disservice" to the flameworking community, than I am not sure what is. This is not an attack on your credibility, it is a questioning of your judgement however.

A retraction is out of the question, as there is nothing infactual or incorrect in what I have posted.

You too have shown me much here as well, defining your character. You may pass your judgement on me if you wish. So be it.

[MikeAurelius]

ya, right, whatevah........

I've far more important things to do that play patticake with you today.

Bottom line: flashback arrestors are not necessary, nor required for surface mix torches. If they make you feel safer, then by all means use them.