boro snowflake help

tap1073 · #1 2013-10-18, 5:45pm

I'm making snowflakes from 5mm simax rods. I dropped one on a granite countertop and two of the arms came off. I was wondering if this is normal for pieces that are heated together or if I'm doing something wrong. I also annealed it for 3hrs. Any suggestions would be appreciated!

Rough_necked · #2 2013-10-18, 7:06pm

It's hard to say. Show some pics so we can see the welds. If they aren't good it doesn't matter how long it's been annealed. And boro is still glass. It will still break if dropped. Especially on something like granite.

Dragonharper · #3 2013-10-19, 5:18am

Pics would help, but it sounds like the seal was incomplete.

tap1073 · #4 2013-10-22, 4:40pm

Here are a few pics I took while making one today.

Dragonharper · #5 2013-10-22, 4:51pm

Those look like cold seals and not hot seals/welds. Boro is realy picky about that. Anyone else want to chime in?

jhamilton117 · #6 2013-10-22, 5:13pm

I'd say everything needs melted in more.

Looks good tho!

Sue in Maine · #7 2013-10-22, 6:39pm

Yes, your seals are not completely melted in. Boro is finicky that way. I grabbed my camera and took some shots to give you an idea of what seamless seams you should have when you join boro. I hope these pics come out. Again, it was just a few quick shots of a couple of pieces I have hanging around.

In each, my goal for the shots was to show how seamless the welds are. I hope these came out good enough to show.

Sue

J.Meader · #8 2013-10-22, 7:35pm

Also read up on bridging. It would be helpful to secure the outer ends together so you can get enough heat on the middle connections to properly melt them together.

tap1073 · #9 2013-10-22, 7:40pm

How do you get it hot enough to weld together without it getting all wonky? I did heat up both pieces and pushed them together, then would keep going over it with heat, but if it got too hot it would kinda melt and get off center. Do I need to make my flame more pinpoint and precise?

deb tarry · #10 2013-10-22, 9:18pm

Sometimes I put a dot on the piece, melt that to a good or smooth seal (without melting it flat) then you just have to melt the tip of the dot and the end of rod to be attached. Hope it makes sense. and bridging it with this method helps keep it in place.

Dragonharper · #11 2013-10-23, 3:32am

Quote:

Originally Posted by tap1073

How do you get it hot enough to weld together without it getting all wonky? I did heat up both pieces and pushed them together, then would keep going over it with heat, but if it got too hot it would kinda melt and get off center. Do I need to make my flame more pinpoint and precise?

That is what the bridging helps with. A smaller flame can also help.

With boro I find that more practice is also part of the answer.

Talonst · #12 2013-10-23, 6:02am

To make a hot seal both pieces of glass need to be at the same temperature - a bright orange glow. Once they are at temp then push the two pieces together, wait a second and pull slightly. The result should be a smooth radiused joint with no sharp corners.

The other way to do it is make the joints with cold seals then bridge the pieces and use a Little Smith or Gentech torch to refine the welds.

The joints in the clear sections of the pictures you showed were all cold seals and will break in time.

rjohn7 · #13 2013-10-23, 7:19am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragonharper

Those look like cold seals and not hot seals/welds. Boro is realy picky about that. Anyone else want to chime in?

this. I see undercuts that is almost a guarantee of a cold seal.

rjohn7 · #14 2013-10-23, 7:21am

Quote:

Originally Posted by tap1073

How do you get it hot enough to weld together without it getting all wonky? I did heat up both pieces and pushed them together, then would keep going over it with heat, but if it got too hot it would kinda melt and get off center. Do I need to make my flame more pinpoint and precise?

bridges. they're sort of like struts that hold stuff in place till after then are removed. look or a video on youtube, hard to explain without showing.

Talonst · #15 2013-10-23, 7:24am

http://www.amazon.com/Contemporary-L...ry+lampworking

jhamilton117 · #16 2013-10-23, 9:27am

If there's ever a lip that you can get your fingernail under, its not melted in enough and will be a weak/breaking point

Dragonharper · #17 2013-10-23, 1:53pm

BTW: I love my Smith little torch for situations like this.

tap1073 · #18 2013-10-23, 3:35pm

Thank you for all for the advice. I will try putting the dot of clear and bridging the two pieces, sounds like a great solution.

tap1073 · #19 2013-10-30, 6:53pm

I have one more question. How do you know when the welds are properly done? I think mine are secure, gave my snowflakes a little drop on a wood table and they seemed okay, but is there a better way to test them? I will be selling these and want to make sure they're of good quality.Appreciate all the advice!

torchgirl · #20 2013-10-30, 7:44pm

A glass friend of mine said, if it looks like an ant could skate board over your welds with out falling off, they are good. Sounds silly but if you envision it, it works.

jhamilton117 · #21 2013-10-31, 12:53am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhamilton117

If there's ever a lip that you can get your fingernail under, its not melted in enough and will be a weak/breaking point

RE: OP

Smooth seams, as if there is no seam. Take two pieces and melt till they're one, you want the glass to flow together.

deb tarry · #22 2013-10-31, 10:54am

I like the ant story

fourpawsglass · #23 2013-11-03, 6:13am

I totally follow the "ant story". I also find that having a small hand torch allows you more mobility to get into those tight places for better welding. You can point the small flame more directly rather than trying to use your larger torch.

Otter's Flame · #24 2013-11-18, 2:34pm

Bridging is probably going to be your best solution. You have multiple joints sealing to a relatively thin center strut. However, even If you bridge your center strut, you will still have issues as you add the "arms". The weight will want to sag the center strut as you add the arms. Go slow, use a small flame, work around your entire seal, not just one spot. Go slower than you think you need and use a flame smaller than you think you should.

Another solution you might consider is design change. Possibly instead of a center strut, use a thicker marble in the center that wont deform as easy and apply the arms around a plane on the marble. Perhaps bridging putting two opposing arms on first and then bridging those so you can work the others easier.

First issue however as everyone else has said is your seals. You may want to practice making a gather then sealing some shorts to it. work slow, work at making your seals totally smooth all the way around every single time. Work without deforming your gather, work at keeping the shorts from sagging over or keep them adjusted as necessary so they are in the same place and orientation as they were when you first attached them to the gather. It is good basic practice for seals that wont fail as easily.

Otter

theglasszone · #25 2013-11-21, 9:28pm

Fascinating!

I hope you show us how things come along for you Taps! Great advice everyone!

Otter's Flame · #26 2013-11-23, 2:38am

Trying to work on a video that will show simple boro welds. Sue in Maine has some excellent pictures though.

Otter

Dragonharper · #27 2013-11-23, 5:21am

Here is a different suggestion, why not use a Venetian style/technique? Start with a ball in the center, and work out from there. While the center is still hot add some pips, about 3/8 of an inch in length, where you want your radials. Construct each radial before going on to the next. Keep the center warm so thst it doesn't crack when you build the next radial. If you build the fisrt branch of each radial first you may be able to fore go the insurance in the center. The biggest thing to rember is once the glass is cool DON'T reheat. This is a 104 technique but it should work with boro with little or no modification. Check youtube and the Corning websites, there may be a video on this technique, I took a class on Venetian Icicles several years ago, we didn't do the snowflake until late in the second day.

menty666 · #28 2013-11-23, 7:33pm

working on a graphite slab on a hot plate might help with Roy's idea.