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  #1  
Old 2011-11-04, 6:24pm
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theglassattic theglassattic is offline
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Default Pandora TM "Infringement" info

I am posting this here, not sure where the best place is, so this will have to work. Last Friday a bunch of my listings got pulled and I got a letter from Etsy saying I was violating Pandora's Trademark, etc, etc.
Most people don't know their rights, don't have money for legal help, and I am fortunate enough to have the ability to speak with an attorney whenever I need to. So, here's the deal. You are "infringing" when you use the Trademarked name of ANY company in your shop title, section title or tags. You may, however, use the name in the description, the purpose being relevant information, as in "fits", "works with", "compatible with". I was advised to not compare my product by saying "comparable to" or use "style" or any wording that may in any way confuse any moron into thinking they are purchasing a trademarked product. All that being said, onto the good stuff. First, you have the right to have your own copies of any C&D (Cease & Desist) letters that where filed with Etsy(or any other web host) and as a matter of record, you should request they send those to you. On that form, the entity that filed MUST be clearly identified, and ALL contact information given. You have the right to contact that entity, using ANY method they gave and request proof of authenticity that they are acting on behalf of the Trademark they represent. THIS is IMPORTANT!!! People scam, all the time. AND DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT, send them your merchandise. That is another HUGE scam. The ONLY way they can request merchandise would be if said merchandise HAS THEIR TRADEMARK OR LOGO on it. And even then, you will KNOW by that point that you are dealing with a legitimate entity because the only time goods can be seized is when people are dealing in counterfeits. I need to add at this point, their is a BIG difference between a resembling item, and a counterfeit. Just because one company makes a "horse" bead, doesn't mean that no other company can make a horse, even a horse that looks almost identical. More fun facts: Pandora uses an organization called REACT, http://www.react.org/ in their fight against this terrible "threat". Please note, this organization charges a small flat fee to become a member. Not spending much of their budget on fighting this, are they? The person in this organization that hunts down offenders is Slavika Dimovska at internet.eu@snbreact.org . On the C&D I requested, there was a phone number. I personally chose to look up the country code and time zone and call her at 4 am her time(I'm an asshole, lol) Funny, she answered. This tells me that React farms this out to home based personnel. How professional. She spoke very little english, but I already knew she didn't because anything that wasn't copied and pasted on the C&D and POA she sent me was totally gramaticaly incorrect and fucked up. Again, how very shoddy for a company as large as Pandora to spend so little in the way of "protection" for their ultra amazing TM. Next important factoid I'd like to offer. There is a ton of information on the web regarding this issue. Something to know is that a company is bound to protect their trademmark, or it can be challenged and LOST. The proof that they don't is a VERY GOOD DEFENSE should they ever take you to court. My point being, scour the internet for your favorite LEGITIMATE infringer, you must copy the LINK and send it in an email to this organization, and let them know you will continue to check back to see if said infringement is removed and that DUE DILIGENCE is being used to protect said Trademark against possible loss. This has been my favorite tactic. I am keeping them busy with all the Chinese resellers that are back on Etsy selling 3.99 beads, and with the people in The Netherlands(their country of origin, that seem to go completely untouched) and they know I am keeping tabs on what stays and what goes. I screen-capture evidence everyday. I am trying to work this company to the bone. And they will do it because they know that I know it is the best defense in a court room. Pandora has MANY sites mouthing off about their vehement protection of their precious name, but it's almost impossible to find a place to contact them about this matter. Why? Because it would cost them too much money in manpower to send thousands of C&D letters. I have no idea why some jerk-off decided to come after glass artist's using Pandora as a search term, and really that's all we all are doing, none of us tried to trick the public into thinking Pandora's peeps in Thailand made OUR beads. There are MANY examples of outright counterfeits and Trademark infringment, and they need to get to work. Also, for the record, I was using Pandora in my titles, and I know now, that by legal definition, I was wrong. But I was not intentionally trying to infringe, I was simply using it as a term for the search engine to recognize my product, because as we all know, it is a very largely searched term on Etsy. However, by all rights, there should be NO LEGALLY ACCEPTABLE PANDORA PRODUCTS ON ETSY, period. Etsy is for handmade or Vintage goods. Both disqualify Pandora products. And supplies are out, as well. To sell Pandora, you must be an authorized dealer, and in that agreement, it clearly states that you must have a brick and mortar store, or a website approved by them, and auction and market type venues are clearly not acceptable. But, to even clarify it a bit more, you can go here http://www.pandoragroup.com/About-Pandora/Contacts to check to see if someone is an authorized seller.
Etsy is well aware of this, please note this conference that the head of legal at Etsy attended in the post on August 12th http://www.ipinbrief.com/tag/trademark-infringement/
But by making Etsy a fair market, they might lose money. They are protected under the DMCA(Digital Millennium Copyright Act) google it, too much info to put here, which is why even if they KNOW or YOU flag, they will not remove a listing, until they get a C&D from an authorized person.
Well, I'm off to call Slavi what ever her name is. There are several chinese trademark infringers that she needs to attend to. It's her job.

Go here to see what The Royal Heiness says herself http://cgi3.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...id=pandora.cph

And then I like what these people say http://www.marketingweek.co.uk/disci...023498.article

That much profit, but they spend a "members" fee at React to shut little people down. They'll eventually lose their trademark because it's a generic term now, because they're greedy bastards and won't spend time and money to go after big game.
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Last edited by theglassattic; 2011-11-04 at 10:29pm. Reason: ugly word replacement :)
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  #2  
Old 2011-11-04, 9:08pm
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Thank you Leigh Anne... very VERY much for this info. Have complied (as fast as my fingers could type lol) and now we sell only Charm beads on Etsy. No unmentionables that start with P. =) Liked you on Fb while I was at it, love your beads.
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Old 2011-11-04, 9:28pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sortaflower View Post
Thank you Leigh Anne... very VERY much for this info. Have complied (as fast as my fingers could type lol) and now we sell only Charm beads on Etsy. No unmentionables that start with P. =) Liked you on Fb while I was at it, love your beads.
I am way flattered, love your beads too! I really liked not seeing a bracelet bead donut in sight, proof positive that I am needing to make other shapes, lol! Sometimes when I light my torch, I feel like that commercial "time to make the donuts....) Actually, I really like making donuts, they are why I started making glass, but I Really need to expand my skills a bit. I keep saying that, but.......
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Old 2011-11-04, 9:40pm
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Default Charm Beads?

Is there a universal term? Someone should take a poll on what to call the donuts, lol! Charm Beads, European Charm Beads, Euro Charms, BHB. I really think it would be neat if we all got together and came up with one solid term that we could pass along to our customers so it would get big and recognizable in the search engines. I had a lady email me tonight and ask me what she should look for instead of Pandora. I really hated the thought of saying Trollbeads, because that's most likely next to get slammed. So I just said BHB, but felt kinda lame, because I'm not sure exactly what to say.
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Old 2011-11-04, 10:47pm
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I like Charm Beads, but a poll would be nice... what is BHB?
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Old 2011-11-04, 10:53pm
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Oh Durrr, got it.
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  #7  
Old 2011-11-05, 4:49am
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Oh I had the same issue with this girl from React(( Keep us updated please !
I hope buyers one day will understand that can search beads not only by 'fits pandora' but BHB or LHB or Charm beads as well....
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Old 2011-11-05, 10:53am
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Hmmm. Interesting that so many people think it is OK to use a trademarked name in marketing competing products. Pandora has put a huge amount of money into building this name into a well recognized trademark and they have every right to protect their investment. I think most of us would do the same. What am I missing. Not looking for flame just a discussion of how they are not justified.
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Old 2011-11-05, 3:03pm
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Did anyone say they are not justified? Thanks again Leigh Anne for this timely info and keeping your fellow bead-heads out of hot water. The large hole bead market has been a saving grace for many glass artists during the downturn in the economy, and I for one am grateful for the marketing that these large companies have done, but that said, they did not invent the large hole bead. I am happy to call them Charm Beads and get on with it.
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Old 2011-11-05, 6:02pm
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i used to have "fits pandora" on the signs in my shop all the time - i received those poorly worded letters several times - i just ignored them

i seriously doubt pandora cares about artisan lampworkers, they will go after the big chinese manufactures though
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  #11  
Old 2011-11-06, 4:23am
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Maybe not Deb. But Etsy is pulling listings and Paypal is shutting down accounts. Makes it a no brainer for me to switch.
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Old 2011-11-20, 9:44pm
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How about Art Bead Charms, or Glass Art Charms?
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Old 2011-12-30, 6:20pm
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This is a "Follow Up" because I have had so many people contact me, asking for advice.
COMPLY, that is my advice. IMMEDIATELY deactivate ALL of your listings, because they usually only send Etsy C&D letters on a few, not all, that are in violation. So deactivate EVERYTHING, then edit them and re-list. It's that simple. Also check your shop title, and section titles. Remove the word Pandora and you're good. So far, I only know of 1 shop that Etsy shut down. I think she didn't address her other listings, and section titles and after a warning, they pulled the plug.
For all the people worried about views, loss of traffic, etc-STOP. This isn't going to kill you. Let's be real, no one gets on Etsy looking for "Real" Pandora beads, now do they? No, they come in search of handmade beads to fit their bracelets. Use a term that most of us have switched to, like European Charm Bead, and Big Hole Bead, etc and they will find you. I have not noticed a loss of traffic. My personal opinion is that I have even expanded my views by using a variety of search terms now. And yes, technically, by law, in your description, you can say your handmade beads will fit on a Pandora bracelet. I still do that, just for the kiss my ass factor. Please do not despair, this is not the end of the road for you, somehow most people are devastated, but you shouldn't be. Chin up, edit your listings and flame on!!!!!
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Old 2012-01-09, 12:31am
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Default Pandora

It's funny how nobody went after them when they copied all the original beads designs our earlier bead makers came up with. All they did was use a larger mandrel and put a silver core inside. Some are very pretty, but many are not very precisely designed. You can really tell the difference between a real lampworker designed and executed bead and many of theirs.

Whenever I see a Pandora store or Pandora bracelet with glass lampwork beads
I have a physical reaction. I feel sick because I can't compete and now they've added all those gorgeous Swarovski beads specifically made for the collection. I remembering having to justify $3 per bead. But now, they get $23 or more per bead. I try to convince myself that it is just because of the sterling silver lining.

And speaking of trademark infringement. . . I heard from a lady who owns the best bead store here that Troll Beads started first by two brothers somewhere in Europe a long tome ago ( late 60's I think she said.) Apparently, the brothers had a falling out and one of them started Pandora in the states. Troll followed him across the ocean with a product that is about the same. I don't remember any copy write infringement suits being filed then. There are also: Charmilla and one other. Plus the department store Bealls, in the southern states sells their own version.

I guess what really bothers me is that they had the idea and now they mix silver, crystal and many other pretty beads in with fewer glass beads. Our community beads and jewelry never had that kind of mainstream mass appeal. I don't know why. I just know they won't be around that much longer. Some day, people are going to look at our beads at a show and say something like, "OOh, these are pretty, they remind me of those Pandora beads from years ago."

The receptionist in my Doctor's office was wearing a Pandora bracelet once and I commented on it. She said she was wearing her blue beads that day, but she needed more to make them go further around the chain. When she said, "They just cost so much money $27 a bead at that time." I said, Oh, you poor thing. (I meant I would sell her one for $3-6.) I just didn't want to ruin her day.
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etsy
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Old 2012-01-09, 9:57am
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Check this out, I thought it was pretty cool:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocYoL...&feature=share
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Old 2012-01-20, 11:21pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fyrebeadz* View Post
Check this out, I thought it was pretty cool:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocYoL...&feature=share
Wow! That was an awesome video! I'm gonna try that cz method myself, lol!!!! Troll IS the originator and my reason in starting glass beadmaking. That said, please don't let the artsy fartsy video fool anyone, as far as the production of their beads are concerned. A dear friend of mine is a licensed distributor. Her store orders come straight from Asia and are mass factory produced. Hmmm...PRC... where could that be???? OH!!! People's Republic of China!!!! I guess it would look really sad to just say Made in China, lol.
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Old 2012-01-20, 11:42pm
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Hmmm. Interesting that so many people think it is OK to use a trademarked name in marketing competing products. Pandora has put a huge amount of money into building this name into a well recognized trademark and they have every right to protect their investment. I think most of us would do the same. What am I missing. Not looking for flame just a discussion of how they are not justified.
I actually agree that they are justified, HOWEVER, here is the irony, and the reason I hate Pandora. They copied this idea themselves from Trollbeads. Then used CORPORATE mass marketing to flood the market. Trollbeads has been around since 1976 and thriving, yet most people only have heard of Pandora.
Secondly, glass bead artists on Etsy are not the reason their stocks are plummeting from trademark dilution. The REAL reason is Pandora themselves for trying so hard to "brand" the large hole concept. My issue is that they should spend some of their huge corporate profits to stop the factories pumping out products with their name on it, not take the easy way out and go after "little people" that are actually just using the term for search. Because of their approach to marketing, it's almost like Jello and gelatin. People that are just looking for large hole beads know of no other term and think it's "what" large hole beads are called. I agree they have the right to protect their name, it would be nice to see them do something about the real issue, factories, not individual bead artists. But that might be hard for them, since all of their beads are produced by factories in the same region as theirs are made, some on the same molds. That's what you get when you sell out to the lowest bidder and then sell a $2 bead for $65. Now those factories have the molds and do what ever they want with them.
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Last edited by theglassattic; 2012-01-20 at 11:53pm. Reason: fix typo
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Old 2012-02-10, 2:05pm
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Thanks so much Glassattic for sharing all this information. Etsy pulled one of my items today because of Slavica Dimovska's complaint. I'm glad I thought to look here before I freaked out too much. At first I thought it may be because they could have a trademark on a particular design. I'm happy that is not what it was. I went ahead and changed everything. So not worth any hassle.
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Old 2013-02-22, 8:13am
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Well, it looks like Pandora is back on Etsy. I have gotten 3 contacts in 4 days asking for advice about this. My Advice is still the same. COMPLY. If you get a letter, PUT YOUR SHOP IN VACATION MODE. REMOVE Pandora from EVERYTHING. Most importantly, your Shop Title, Shop Description, Section Titles, Listing Titles and even if you decide to use it in fair use, it must NOT BE IN THE FIRST 9 words of the description.
Etsy will close your shop. Period. End of story. They will not re-open it and they do not give a rat's ass about you. IF, by chance, you miss something and they shut you down, all is not lost. It's a bitch, you have to start over from square one, but regardless of what the rules say, you can re-open. You have to choose another shop name and start from scratch, but just do it. I personally know of 4 people that have successfully done it, and anyone can. It doesn't matter if you link the same paypal account, etc. Etsy really and truly doesn't care, they shut down the first shop to cover their ass, because Pandora comes after THEM, not you. They own the(your) shop, NOT you. I would suggest using your old shop name in your tags, so that some of your old customers can find you. Go to Paypal and harvest all of the email addy's from your previous sales and send a brief "Grand Opening of your new shop" letter. Brief, no one wants spam marketing, lol.
Customers will recognize your items and you will re-build. It sucks, but you can make it!!! Look, no guts, no glory. It won't hurt you to try. And again, I know several bead artists that have done it, I'm not comfortable calling them out, but it has been done. I can't tell you how strongly I recommend downloading inventory files from Etsy on a regular basis. Anything you have on Etsy is their property, not yours. But I do know several people who have been shut down and asked Etsy for a link to download their CSV files after the fact and they gave it to them, so if you need them, ask Etsy and they may give them to you.

PS CSV files are important because they contain your listing titles, descriptions and prices so you don't have to re-write ALL THAT INFORMATION. Some contain your photos. For some reason, my csv files are corrupted on occassion and the photos don't get included, but the actual information is half the battle!!!!
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Old 2013-02-22, 10:33am
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Also, to find and download your CSV files for your Etsy shop, Click on the top of the page "your Shop", then on the left under "Shop Settings" click on "options" and you will see "CSV" as a link on the top of the page. Easy stuff!!! But very important!!!
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Old 2013-03-01, 11:24am
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Originally Posted by LarryC View Post
Hmmm. Interesting that so many people think it is OK to use a trademarked name in marketing competing products. Pandora has put a huge amount of money into building this name into a well recognized trademark and they have every right to protect their investment. I think most of us would do the same. What am I missing. Not looking for flame just a discussion of how they are not justified.
Using a competitor's trademarked products and logos in marketing is nothing new. The fast food restaurants do it, Coke/Pepsi use it (the delivery guy commercials, where a Coke driver is caught drinking Pepsi). The people Pandora should be going after are the foreign factories making knock-offs and putting Pandora's name on the product.

There is a vast difference between saying "my bead fits Pandora bracelets" and stamping the Pandora name on a $3 knockoff bead.
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  #22  
Old 2013-03-01, 11:51am
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Maui Greenstone Maui Greenstone is offline
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Sounds like we have opened..... Wait for it......."PANDORA'S BOX".
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  #23  
Old 2013-03-01, 2:00pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maui Greenstone View Post
Sounds like we have opened..... Wait for it......."PANDORA'S BOX".
I went to click **Like** for this post, but realized that this isn't Facebook!
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  #24  
Old 2013-03-05, 6:18pm
Vespaboy Vespaboy is offline
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For any of you who may be faced with editing "Pandora" out of your listings, check out this nifty batch-editing software. http://www.blugrin.com/

I just finished revamping 80+ listings using this tool. The free version works fine if you only need to change Title or Description content. Should you need to alter tags, then the paid version is just the ticket.

Chuck
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  #25  
Old 2013-03-08, 8:38pm
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In the last 2-3 weeks, I have had 16 people contact me about this. This is ridiculous. If you get a notice from Etsy, COMPLY. They ALWAYS send a warning. If you don't comply, they will shut your shop down. Period, end of story. If your shop gets shut down, they will not let you re-open. I cannot do anything to help. For all it's worth, I have tried to offer advice based on my own experience, and legal advice I have been given. That's all I can do. If you are reading this because you found your way here from the internet, you are in Lampworker's Etc. I am a glass artist. I make glass beads by hand, one at a time. If you are selling mass-produced, factory made glass beads on Etsy in the handmade category, my advice is to take your beads to Ebay . Shops like DIY, GrimeyGirls and CharmedWithJunk, I am not the person to come to for help.
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  #26  
Old 2013-03-09, 6:01am
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if people keep pming/emailing you about wanting to sell mass produced crap on etsy....send them to a scat porn page.
they deserve it.
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  #27  
Old 2013-03-09, 11:14pm
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all I can say is, Get a life.
B
or perhaps stop making that rubbish and make something original
B
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  #28  
Old 2013-03-11, 3:22am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by castaway View Post
all I can say is, Get a life.
B
or perhaps stop making that rubbish and make something original
B
Go Bernie!
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  #29  
Old 2013-07-19, 9:14pm
Barbie-O Barbie-O is offline
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Smile SubReact Needs Class Action Law Suit

I came upon this site when I was cited by Slovica the "Russian" woman? This is the second time. I don't sell on Etsy, but on iOffer.com and last March 2013 was shut down because of apparently I had one picture I took off a site instead of using my own. An unintentional mistake. Not really understanding the copyrights laws completely. Guess that was my fault. I had to submit pictures and receipts and in the end was cleared. But...now here we are in July...same thing again? I put charm beads on a Pandora bracelet. Heading had NO mention of Pandora bracelet or Pandora charms. In description I gave a name to the bracelet I created and said they would also receive the bracelet [which was a Pandora] with it. Because the beads covered the bracelet...she claimed her "experts" determined it was "counterfeit". Hmmm sound familiar. Her experts aren't really very expert, IMO.

In turn my site was again shut down again unless I sign an agreement that says I won't do it again. I saw that the items I cleared in March were still listed there as a "former" wrong listing??? Now why did I waste all my time and energy proving that all was mine? They are still showing as a problem? That is why I won't agree to signing it again, because that is like admitting you are at fault. So upsetting. The bad part is I cannot sell until I either sign or wait it out and that could take an awful long time.

I refused to sign it and filed the counter-suit against them [which I downloaded from iOffer.com's site]. I also wrote to her and among other things I said... I told her that I'd read many things about her on the internet and they weren't very nice. I said WHY are you bothering poor young mothers on Etsy for only trying to make a little extra money to feed their children. I said you are Russian, you should understand that it's not that easy to make ends meet and she should be ashamed of herself. I said I wasn't going to "prove" anything and that in the USA you are innocent until proved "guilty". I said I have nothing to prove, I've done nothing wrong, I have receipts for my merchandise and you WILL have to take me to court. I also said, I will return all my merchandise to PANDORA who I purchased it from and be sure to mention your name. I said I also think this situation would qualify for a CLASS ACTION SUIT against your organization.

I seriously believe this is the only way to stop the "insanity". Morgan and Morgan fought Wal-Mart and won. I think someone should initiate it. She needs to be stopped and I think we would all sign the petition and we could all dance when she is put out of business.

How do they get away being in another Country and doing this??? This is the part I don't understand. Netherlands? Her last word to me...your beads are probably, "Probably" counterfeit? I never said they were Pandora? It's just so upsetting and I would love to see it all come down on her. Would love to see one of our local T.V. Stations go after her? But that's why they hide in another Country. I don't know much about the law...but I am sure that's it. But how does it "fly" here in our country? I don't understand?

I was glad to see your original post while researching subreact on the NET. Keep up the good work.
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  #30  
Old 2013-07-19, 9:27pm
Barbie-O Barbie-O is offline
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Last time I went to my doctor's office, I put a few of the beads I sell in a small paper bag and handed it across to her and told her to take a look and I would pick it up on the was out. On the outside of the bag I gave prices. On the way out, she handed me $25.00. Try it. This is a good way to get your stuff seen. Women are women. They ALL gather round and look.
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