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Safety -- Make sure you are safe!

View Poll Results: Should there be a "Glassworking student's Bill of Rights"?
Lofty goals to be sure, but who is going to enforce them? 63 51.22%
Amen Brotha!! It's about damn time!! 37 30.08%
Who care? I just want to learn!! 13 10.57%
Huh? Students have rights? Since when? 10 8.13%
Voters: 123. You may not vote on this poll

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  #241  
Old 2008-03-08, 6:19pm
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Default Hi Pam

Pam

I have been in a couple of advanced classes that have had beginners. For me it was ok as the rest of us helped out the student and that way the instructor could keep on her schedule. It was not a big deal. However, this student did not demand a lot from the instructor. So we were all fine. But I can see where it would be frustrating for everyone if all your time was spent on the beginning student, that was demanding and you had to hold their hand.

I am a teacher and teach advanced classes in fused art and beginning fuse.

I have so much to cover for the advanced class and just dont have time for a beginner in my class. I am not one to repeat myself when my students know the basics of fusing. My classes run a full semester and before they come to my advanced classroom they have to show me their work.

It is better to place one in the correct class as it is easier on the Instructor. And of course only fair to the student that is paying for the advanced class.
Some kind of guide line for teaching lampworking should be in place but not all will follow as every store owner needs to fill a quota for the instructor that is teaching. My 2 cents
SL
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  #242  
Old 2008-03-08, 8:17pm
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Prerequisites, I say again

You can't take Spanish 2 unless you took Spanish 1, or passed an exam showing you know spanish well enough to not flounder in Spanish 2.

List the skills a person needs for the classes. Insist that the store owners put that on the ads for the classes, and put a note on there saying that if the student doesn't have the skills they may not get much out of the class, as those skills are expected to be known to be able to learn the techniques taught in the class.

I love the idea of beginner, intermediate, advanced, masters...but...most of us have skills that are all over the place. I can encase all day long, but can't make a triangle bead well to save my life, LOL. I just figured out twisting dots this year, after more than 4 years of lampworking. I can make donut beads consistently, but can't make a spherical bead. Etc, etc, etc.
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  #243  
Old 2008-03-08, 10:32pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norskiglass View Post
Q: Where Did Mike Go?
LOL
William> CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW?

I'm sure he's around. Maybe the conversation has moved past his original concerns.

While I'm here I'll just say that I like the whole idea of pre-requisites etc. But just like many of the other issues discussed here, it's pretty tough to really put into effect IMO. It's all getting a bit complicated.
If I were to teach an intermediate to advanced blown boro bead class I would definitely require that you know how to pull a point for example..
A beginning blown boro bead class would be far more tricky since we're basically talking about putting a piece of boro tubing into hands that may have previously only held a mandrel. Now that would be a challenging class to teach!
I think I'd rather take on an apprentice willing to master pulling nice straight and usable points rather than have a studio full of students new to tubing, expecting to have nice blown beads by the end of the day.
Not that it's not possible. Maybe my mentality in regards to this is because I had to teach myself a majority of what I know about tubing and blown work.
It would be a fun challenge, but not one I would take on at the expense of others, money, frustration and/or dissapointment. That's not an option.
So maybe a beginning blown bead class would require the same pre-requisite?
All of this thought just brought me to decide to continue to work at my own torch until I feel that I am in a better position for this..

Anyway, there's always the chance of a fibber showing up for that advanced class that claims they know more than they do, so either you require some sort of proof..like a written test or simple a piece of their work that relates to need skills for the class or you have to take people on their word..
I know that 10 years ago, before I was humbled by seeing work by some of the true masters I thought because I could make things that my friends couldn't I was hot stuff, HA boy did I have another thing coming.
Then I saw what Paul Stankard and Roger Parramore and the other real "masters" do with glass..if I went to sign up for a class next to them, I might just have to say I'm a beginner...relatively..
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  #244  
Old 2008-03-08, 10:50pm
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Originally Posted by ditfd View Post
I have a question for you and Schermo, though. What do you do in the situation where a student was allowed to sign up for the class by the promoter, and the student is unqualified. What if the promoter will not refund their money? What if the student insists on staying in the class? What if by not allowing that student, the entire class is canceled by the promoter? And you, the teacher, don't have a cancelation policy, so you and the remaining students are hung out to dry?
Best,
Patti
I'd say that if I were the instructor, (and this is of course, in the best of all possible worlds...) I'm thinking this type of situation would probably only happen to me once. Because after that, I'd include in my written contract with all future venues specific agreements about skill levels, unqualified students, and refunds being made in the case of the promoter knowingly allowing inexperienced students into an more advanced class.

Alternately, (although it would be more work for me in the long run) if I were concerned about this being a problem in a specific venue, I'd request email addresses of students, so I could communicate with them. I'd make sure they knew what skills were necessary to take the class, and explain why it makes for a difficult, unfair and unsafe situation when someone takes a class they aren't ready for. I might even ask them how long they'd been making beads, and if their response indicated a short time, or someone who only makes beads occasionally, I'd ask to see pictures of their beads, if they were still determined to take the class.

As for an unqualified student who insists on taking the class, what are you going to do? I think it would depend on how unqualified they were - if it were someone who had little or no torch experience, I'd lay down the ground rules and only allow them to watch. I would explain the safety issues in trying to work with hot glass with no previous experience and no instruction. That's just not a safe situation, and in beadmaking, mitigating the risks is what allows us to melt glass safely. Once the class got underway, if time allowed as the other students were working on beads, or if there was an experienced TA assisting, I might try to give the student some supervised torch time with instruction.

Of course this scenario happens all the time, I'm sure; but, I wouldn't feel comfortable with it, and as the instructor, I feel that it's my prerogative to lay down the ground rules, and unfortunately, my responsibility to enforce them. I can't adequately instruct or supervise a beginner and at the same time teach all the other appropriately qualified, paying students. Not fair to me, and not fair to the students, and certainly not a safe situation.

At least, that's what I think I'd do, while I'm sitting here at my computer. Handling such a situation in real life.... Might be different. That's what I think I SHOULD do, in that situation.

Regarding the question of the difference between an intermediate and advanced class that Pam asked earlier, I thought about it a lot this afternoon, and came to the same conclusions that Patti did: An advanced class isn't necessarily about technique, it's probably more about how to combine techniques and exploring from an aesthetic viewpoint how different elements work together. Adding techniques or skills from another artform, such as sandblasting glass, using PMC with glass beads, incorporating electroforming, etc. An advanced class would require that the student have more precision and control over the glass, in order to achieve a complex design.

Pam, you used the example of a class on florals. Let me show you some pictures....

This is my first ever floral bead. I made it in a class with Pati Walton in 2001, when I'd been making beads for 2 1/2 years. I would classify my skills at that point in time as advanced beginner. (I don't think the class had a skill level assigned to it.) The class, however, was clearly intermediate. She taught us surface floral decoration, as well as layering, including (purchased) murinni, and how to make striped floral cane. She's a very sharing teacher, but I don't think I had enough experience to really soak up all the techniques and info she gave us.

Here is my first iris bead.
Do not laugh, or I might have to smack you.


Okay, I've been making beads now for 9 years, and I feel that my skills have reached the intermediate level today. Here is an example of what I think could / would appropriately be taught in an intermediate level class:
Making striped flower cane, leaf & vine cane, shaping, stringer control, painting motion for achieving the iris bead. (Most of this Pati taught in her class, I just wasn't skilled enough to do it successfully!)


Now, for an advanced class, I would like to show a bead of Pati's - a multi-layered landscape bead, with handmade murinni. I think the complexity of a bead like this would be appropriate for an advanced level class. It would include designing a multi-layered bead, creating a 3D landscape effect, the same surface florals and complex flower cane making, as well as venturing into simple murinni making.
Here's Pati's beautiful bead:


Anyhow, I appreciate this discussion. I think it's by having discussions and sharing ideas, and doing so on a beadmaker's forum, that we all help progress the advancement of our art form.

Schermo
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  #245  
Old 2008-03-09, 6:16am
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Let me see if I can start from the top, so to speak.

StacyLynn, I agree with you, I have been in classes like that also, but I think as an instructor you have to ask yourself if this is fair. No one minds helping someone out, most of the time, but is it fair to ask students who have paid for the instruction to do that? Just a thought.

I think I really like Evil's idea, list the skills necessary to take the class. Simple and should work if everyone is honest. I also agree with her that most of us have skills all over the place. I may be a complete beginner at some skills, but advanced in other skills. Then it becomes a judgment call - okay, I can do 9 of the 10 skills, but I really have trouble with this one. Should I sign up for the class or not?

Beau, I'm not ignoring you, but I just can't relate to pulling points!! Something I never learned, and to be perfectly frank, never really cared to learn. I worked with boro for 3 years, off and on, and it just isn't for me. I used the Fowler/Burton method of making beads, so didn't have to learn to pull points. To me, there would have to be at least an eight-hour course on just pulling points before I could step into a class that required even a minimum standard of that skill!

So, Ann, then your idea of an advanced class would be either added instruction outside of hot-glass techniques, or multi-layered designs that require the combination of many different skills.

And then, Ann, my question is, was it worth the cost/effort to take Pati's class at the stage you were at when you took it? Did you find it rewarding? Did you learn skills? Did you remember the skills, even if you couldn't execute them perfectly, and apply them to your work later on?

And what do you consider master's classes.
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  #246  
Old 2008-03-09, 7:10am
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I have been following this discussion and would like contribute since this is exactly the situation I may be facing.

First of all, a little background about my experience. Although I have always been in the fine arts field and did my share of various medium, I have only discovered glass 20 months ago. Took my first class with Kimberly Affleck with only eight months under my belt, I was probably considered "under qualified" for her intermediate organic beads class. But I didn't have any problem keeping up since I naturally like to make large beads and I have always been obsessive about the shape and ends of beads.

I am currently in Murano and have had the honor of meeting with Vittorio Constantini, chatting with him (curious how much you can communicate without speaking the same language!) I watched him make his beautiful birds and hope to be able to get into his 2-day workshop at the Gathering.

His workshop is what one would consider a master's class, I am sure.

As already discussed, most of us have various skill levels on different techniques. Although I have started making hollow fish after a couple of months of lampworking, I have never done any off-mandrel work except for a leaf here and a dolphin there!

I told Vittorio that I am taking Gianni Toso's 11-day workshop in June so hope to have enough sculptural and off-mandrel experience by the Gathering. Toso is teaching both soft glass and boro. Moreover, I plan on setting up parameters so that during this next five months, I will practice off-mandrel techniques as to prepare myself for Vittorio's class if I am fortunate enough to get in.

I think that once we are past the beginers/beginner-intermediate level, it is the responsibility of the student to find out the necessary skills required for a class and if necessary, practice those skills in order to be able to really take advantage of the instructor's teachings - as well as not get into a situation of holding the class back.
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  #247  
Old 2008-03-09, 7:45am
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Wow, great point, Hayley!!
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  #248  
Old 2008-03-09, 10:00am
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Originally Posted by pam View Post
Beau, I'm not ignoring you, but I just can't relate to pulling points!! Something I never learned, and to be perfectly frank, never really cared to learn. I worked with boro for 3 years, off and on, and it just isn't for me. I used the Fowler/Burton method of making beads, so didn't have to learn to pull points. To me, there would have to be at least an eight-hour course on just pulling points before I could step into a class that required even a minimum standard of that skill!
Never thought you were ignoring me Pam
You understand my hesitation to even offer a class on that subject..it's a tedious and frustrating thing to learn at first, and it helps if you're a glutton for punishment.
I do make alot of beads using the burton method as well, and maybe that would certainly be handy in a mixed skill situation. But alot of my favorite styles of blown bead start as points, and while they could be somewhat accomplished with on the end of a tube it would actually be more work in the end..
Haley I agree with you as well. Several times the word "responsibility" has popped into my head when reading this thread. As in taking responsibility for one's self.
I think it unwise for even a mildly experienced lampworker to go into a class without putting thought into preparedness. Many seem to assume that a teacher/class will "carry" you to your goal.
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  #249  
Old 2008-03-10, 6:19am
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Originally Posted by pam View Post

Beau, I'm not ignoring you, but I just can't relate to pulling points!! Something I never learned, and to be perfectly frank, never really cared to learn. I worked with boro for 3 years, off and on, and it just isn't for me. I used the Fowler/Burton method of making beads, so didn't have to learn to pull points. To me, there would have to be at least an eight-hour course on just pulling points before I could step into a class that required even a minimum standard of that skill!
Pulling points isn't bad. If you are ever around here, give me an hour and I'll have you pulling points like a pro. Well, at least as good as me, anyways. It's one of those things that looks a lot more complicated than it is. There are just a few little tricks that make it a lot easier. I've taught pipe-making for years, and one of the first things I do is have them pull points. There are a few mistakes beginners make that are easily corrected. After that, nobody has much problem pulling points... until it gets to 50mm and larger. That's a little more tricky, but can be done with a little practice.

I'm not sure what the "Fowler/Burton" method is, though. Never heard of that before...
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  #250  
Old 2008-03-10, 6:36am
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Hi Cosmo, I may well take you up on that, though I believe that I am more the soft glass person. Boro is still is of enough interest to me that I would really love to be able to pull points!

The Fowler/Burton method they term as "glass blowing", and it really is a similar procedure to furnace work, but done on a torch. If you are not familiar with Suellen Fowler's work, you can see it here. http://www.flameworkglass.com/SiteFiles/SFFG-Main.html

When I took her class, and subsequently TA'd for her for a couple of years, she generally used 16 to 19mm tubing in around 2 to 3 ft. lengths, rounded up one end in the flame, added coils of clear to bulk up the "gather" and then added her own handmade colors coiled on top. She would blow that out, then add a pattern, condense it and blow into the shape she wanted. Finally she would pull the neck of the perfume bottle (her specialty - though you should see her dragons!!) and add the foot. That's probably not explaining it very well, but when you see her work on the link, I hope the explanation will make sense.

To make beads, which she would do for the class just to show them how, she would more or less follow the same procedure, pull a neck, then blow out the opposite end, pull the neck off and there was a bead. Of course she has been doing this for probably 40 years, since she was 13, so she is extremely good at what she does and makes it seem easier than it actually is.

John Burton was her mentor, so to speak, and invented or brought to the attention of other torchworkers this procedure, many, many, many years ago. He was from England and there is a book written about him - out of print, of course, but it shows his work and gives some instruction on the procedure.

Oh, I just found a picture of one of her dragons - remember, all handmade color!
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  #251  
Old 2008-03-10, 7:35am
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I'm familiar with Suellen. I have a couple of her vessels.

I have never tried making smaller things like beads the way she does it. Seems like there would be too much clear for my tastes. I've done plenty of just coiling color on the end of a rod, which is pretty similar in technique, but doesn't have all the clear.
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  #252  
Old 2008-03-10, 10:11am
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Didn't mean to refer to point pulling as punishment, only if one is trying to learn without instruction..
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  #253  
Old 2008-03-10, 10:26am
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Around here, it's a "rite of passage". When someone starts learning from me, I have them pull points for a few days before they can do anything else...
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  #254  
Old 2008-03-10, 10:44am
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Exactly Cosmo. I was going to say that I would rather take on student(s) willing to do just that. It makes everything else about working tube go that much smoother and more understandable..
Alot of skills are well taught this way (and more traditionally they were).
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  #255  
Old 2008-03-10, 11:37am
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I'm not sure what the "Fowler/Burton" method is, though. Never heard of that before...
not sure of fowler, but i have a copy of john burton's book right here in my hand. he made beads by threading color on a small diameter glass tube and then blowing out the ends of the tube and then reaming the shard ends. thus he did not use a mandrel. he used about a 6 mm diameter tube, and worked totally in boro. he used a national 3a torch for all of his work in the book. i have had this book since high school when i first learned to blow glass, not just melt it.
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  #256  
Old 2008-03-10, 12:10pm
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Exactly Cosmo. I was going to say that I would rather take on student(s) willing to do just that. It makes everything else about working tube go that much smoother and more understandable..
Alot of skills are well taught this way (and more traditionally they were).
Yeah. It kind of serves two purposes. They learn the technique, but they also do the work for me that I don't want to do...
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  #257  
Old 2008-03-10, 12:37pm
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Here is a bead made by Suellen Fowler.
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  #258  
Old 2008-12-07, 2:33pm
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This was some thread!

I only learned lampworking a month ago, and judging by the sounds of it, we were kept very safe in the studio. Excellent ventilation, didy glasses ON even before the instructor would fire up the torch, and so on. I emailed a link to this thread to the owner of the glass studio, to thank her for keeping us safe!

As a person who was interested in learning, I had no idea about safety and I trusted the facility to provide up with a safe work environment.

This might sound dumb, but I thought the fire would be the most dangerous aspect of this art, NOT fumes or the light given off by the torch while working.

I did try to research it before beginning but frankly, I found it all overwhelming. Soft glass, hard glass, COE, Lynx, minor burner, hot head, oxycon, etc.... It was hard to sort out the various facts and hard to understand it all at first.

So, having said that, I would like to see the instructors and studios to accept responsibility for teaching students about safety. While students do have a responsibility to do the best they can for themselves, as a newbie it's sometimes hard to know what is adequate and what isn't.
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