Anyone get sick from fumes? - Page 2

ICBeads · #31 2008-08-23, 12:04am

There have been some studies of "glassworkers" - including art glass workers in Tuscany, a couple of glass factories in Finland, and a study of art glass workers in Sweden that were all cited in an article I recently read (... about a 65 yr. old retired glassblower -nonsmoker- with lung cancer on one of the thoracic web sites). Evidence points to a causal relationship in the risk for lung cancer according to the article since they couldn't account for the increased risks thru non-occupational factors in those studies. I didn't read the individual studies, so no idea how they were done.

When one thinks of the chemicals we might be exposed to while working with glass and/or metals - antimony, arsenic, boron, cadmium, chromium...probably all listed as "minor irritants" in the MSDS

Maybe it's not all that surprising that some glassworkers are having respiratory issues to various degrees.

And what's with the "parts per billion" amounts of poisons that are designated to be "safe"? Doesn't it kind of count that we get exposed to more than one irritant per day? How many irritants, in what combinations, for how many hours per day equals chronic lung disease or cancer in so many years? Factoring in genetics, diet, environmental history, work habits and the types of glass we use, etc...maybe it all just depends on if we're feeling lucky today.

I'm working as safely as I know how, but it sounds like Heidi was too.

Joanne

Kevan · #32 2008-08-23, 12:23am

People DO get emphysema and even lung cancer who have never smoked. Most people who get emphysema that don't smoke are people who have asthma. 10% of lung cancer patients never smoked.

Quote:

The primary risk factor for the development of emphysema is tobacco abuse. In a few individuals, genetic factors such as a reduced level or activity of protective enzymes in the lung (such as occurs in alpha1-antiprotease deficiency) may result in emphysema even in the absence of smoking.

http://www.netwellness.org/healthtopics/lung/faq6.cfm

I don't think I have had any symptoms from lampworking. I do get a cough a little bit from dust and pollen, but I had that long before I started torching.

As for headaches, if I did anything for 6 hours I would have a headache. If
I sat here on the computer for 6 hours I would have a headache. I would get one from holding my head in one position and looking at the screen.

I never have torched more than 3 hours at a time. I don't think I do much of anything longer than that. Maybe driving. Sleeping. lol

ICBeads · #33 2008-08-23, 9:34am

Number one cause for lung cancer among nonsmokers may be radon. Many years ago I read of cases of a disproportionate number of nonsmoking housewives diagnosed with lung cancer in a certain geographic area. I don't recall the exact area, but here's a recent study http://www.cheec.uiowa.edu/misc/radon.html

Joanne

Beadanna · #34 2008-08-24, 12:35pm

Oh I wish I could remember the person who was in his late 70s or early 80s - a glass worker who was the picture of health at that age.
I'm concerned but I really don't KNOW and how can we when there are so many variables. I am taking my time getting set up and hope to have the most safe system I can to vent fumes and will wear a particulate mask as well.

Anna

Heidi von Frozenfyre · #35 2008-08-24, 2:23pm

I worked 8 - 12 hours a day 4-5 days a week I was making 250 boro beads a day or 12 dildos.

(edit because a PM canceled out this window)

I can tell you that my o2 saturations were in the 70's when I was coughing up blood after a long day at the torch.

The first time I had a real problem was when I was teaching *at* Turtle Hill Beads in Northfield MN and there was no ventilation in place other than a fan in the basement window. 4 Students became sick coughing mucus and blood. The owner Gail ended up in the hospital, we canceled the second day of class and my Daughter and I had to drive 6 hours back home but stopped at the walk-in clinic in Green Bay before getting on the boat to the island, and we were both coughing blood, wheezing and having asthma-like symptoms. Her o2 sats were in the mid 80's mine was 71. Giving us o2 didn't help at all... it was a long day at the clinic. I never allowed Erin near the torch after that and she had been torching since she was 6.

It was much worse with soft glass. Of course I was in the Czech Republic working the color palette part of that time too. Designing torches was a fumey job also.

Now my x-ray show meaty scarring.

My pulmonologist states clearly on my records "glass blower's lung" "non-smoker"

Out of curiosity I just googled "glass blower's lung" This is interesting: http://www.thoracic.org/sections/cli...es/case11.html

I don't wish this on anyone.
I don't want anyone to go thru what I have. Since quitting glass a little over a year ago my lungs work a bit better but now I have mushy scarring, susceptible to pnumonia, and have to use an inhaler. THe bleeding stopped a few weeks after I stopped blowing/lamping.

Heidi von Frozenfyre · #36 2008-08-24, 2:52pm

Pulmonary Function In Commercial Glass Blowers

Exposures in Glass Manufacturing

Cancer Risks Among Glass Factory Workers

Dangers of Working With Glass

Diseases of Occupational .... blurry but interesting oh and we can spread syphillis!!

or just Google "Glass Blower's Lung"

I'm not going to list any more links.. there are just too many.

Kevan · #37 2008-08-24, 3:15pm

Well, I'm sorry for your pain, Heidi. Luckily none of us will probably ever been working at a factory level. Making 10 beads a day is probably a lot different.

And I started at 50, so I don't have that many years left to mess up.

NLC Beads · #38 2008-08-24, 6:43pm

Thus far I seem to have more respiratory problems with allergies to my pets than to the lampworking - I was getting concerned for a while, but spent a day at Artful Hands and at the Booger's - 2 torches going, not just my one - and had less problems than I do at home...

I hope you can continue to heal, Heidi, and thanks for the warning.

ICBeads · #39 2008-08-25, 12:44am

Just a heads up for those who are just starting out and perhaps aren't aware of the nasty effects of Nitrogen Dioxide, have a look at a couple of links of what this is capable of doing to people even with short term exposure:

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content...ct/262/21/3014

Both nitrogen dioxide & carbon monoxide were present in this similar case:
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00016858.htm

You'll see symptoms very much like Heidi describes after working in a basement with no ventilation - yikes! I know I'm going to be more cautious if I'm torching away from my studio! Thank you for posting your story Heidi.

Wearing a typical respirator will not help at all in preventing exposure to nitrogen dioxide. A search for - nitrogen dioxide induced hemoptysis - ("hemoptysis" is coughing up blood tinged mucus) brought up a few more related links.

There is also a good article posted at isgb about a woman making beads in a spare bedroom. The woman's hubby had the ability to test for nitrogen oxides. The levels were sometimes ~ 15ppm, and even with improved ventilation the level was still always over 1ppm - and that exceeds the "acceptable" level. They did not detect any carbon monoxide.

Joanne

pam · #40 2008-08-25, 4:50am

Here is a link to the article written by Stan Wolfersberger http://www.isgb.org/education/nox.shtml

Of course there are people more susceptible than others to fumes of any type. I know people who have been torching in unventilated areas for over 30 years who show no adverse affects, and then we hear of people who in a few short hours have problems. We do need to have research done in this area.

Heidi, thank you for sharing your experience. It's really important to know what we are being exposed to. Since just going through this sort of oxygen problem recently with my father who has emphasema, the emergency room physicians, and later the pulmonary specialist, said they would hospitalize anyone whose O2 saturation levels fell below 88, so I am surprised you were not hospitalized, but anyway, I am glad you are recovering somewhat and hope you continue to heal.

The nitrogen oxide produced when burning propane and oxgen is an important consideration for all of us. Nitrogen oxide is also produced from internal combustion engines, so living in an urban environment also raises the levels. Affects from silver, lead, zinc, etc., could affect only those who are sensitive, or could be a problem for all of us. We just don't know.

Heidi von Frozenfyre · #41 2008-08-25, 5:46am

Just to re-iterate, I had great ventilation... and the class I taught in the basement was not my basement.

Oh I was hospitalized... the last time in 2003, I was in for 2 weeks and it turned into pneumonia. I've have little episodes since (not since I've stopped lamping) but I just went to the clinic on the island, because there is really nothing that they can do except put you on a nebulizer and let you cough it all out over a period of a few days. Putting you on oxygen doesn't help because the avolai are so irritated.

The damage is done - once you have lung tissue scarring it will not regenerate and eventually it will turn into emphysema.

Anyways I'm going to get off my soap box. Ive gotten a 2 hateful e-mails about this and all I can say is - Don't let me be the one who says : "I told ya so!" I thought I was impervious when I started back in December of 1989.

'nuf said by me... and I wish you luck and good health.

pam · #42 2008-08-25, 6:43am

That's terrible, Heidi, that anyone would send you hateful emails. I'm off to read all your links!

Abacus Beads · #43 2008-08-25, 7:52am

I have used a Mask with filters on them for years. I've had COPD since I was 12 due to a house fire. When I started lampworking My DH put in a truly overkill ventalation system. It wasn't enough so I started to use the mask and it helped 100%. After you get use to them ( the mask) it's not all that uncomfortable. The only adjustment I had to make was using a straw when I wanted to drink something without taking the whole thing off
Liz R

Bubbyanne · #44 2008-08-25, 9:23am

What kind of mask do you use?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abacus Beads

I have used a Mask with filters on them for years. I've had COPD since I was 12 due to a house fire. When I started lampworking My DH put in a truly overkill ventalation system. It wasn't enough so I started to use the mask and it helped 100%. After you get use to them ( the mask) it's not all that uncomfortable. The only adjustment I had to make was using a straw when I wanted to drink something without taking the whole thing off
Liz R

DesertDreamer · #45 2008-08-25, 9:33am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beadanna

Oh I wish I could remember the person who was in his late 70s or early 80s - a glass worker who was the picture of health at that age.
I'm concerned but I really don't KNOW and how can we when there are so many variables. I am taking my time getting set up and hope to have the most safe system I can to vent fumes and will wear a particulate mask as well.

Anna

I wonder if you're thinking of Bill Rasmussen? He's been at it since the 50's, I believe. Razberi (Laura) is his wife.

Just as a data point, when I was in the hospital with my 2nd round of PE's (blood clots in my lungs) I asked both my pulmonary and hematology docs about lampwork being a possible cause. (Gave them a thorough background on what I do and how I do it.) They both dismissed lampwork as cause or contribution to my problems. My hematologist ran a toxicology panel for metals and I came up absolutely normal. Whew!

nicholebeth · #46 2008-08-25, 2:30pm

Karen,
Sometimes doctors dismiss things that they don't know much about, so if you are still having issues, keep asking about lampwork.

~Nichole (who gets pissed thinking about all the times docs have dismissed her!).

Carols Glass · #47 2008-08-25, 4:44pm

My lungs were starting to hurt every evening after torching so when I saw this thread it caught my attention.

I started wearing a mask that I bought to use when making beads with enamels. My lungs have stopped hurting now.

I plan on wearing them from now on. I really enjoy being able to breathe. The only time I take the mask off now is at the end of making shards so that I can blow the shards up.

Lorraine Chandler · #48 2008-08-27, 11:56am

kelly, I am sorry I never got back to this thread..The pink pads are filters for a half mask respirator. They are lighter weight than the cartridges and since my nose was broken several years ago I cannot stand anything heavy on the bridge ( of my nose)

I bought my mask at the local welding supply and he carries all of the filters. They are N-100's and I can tell the difference if I do not wear my mask.

No one would sky dive without all of the proper equipment and no one would scuba dive without all of the proper equipment...

I wonder why people lampwork without 'ALL; of the proper equipment???

Lorraine

LyndaJ · #49 2008-08-27, 7:22pm

If anyone's interested, they also make nitrogen dioxide filters for the half face masks. I looked them up yesterday after I was reading this thread.

Lorraine Chandler · #50 2008-08-27, 10:32pm

You can go to Airgas safety products on the web. I purchased the 3M brand mask (#3MR 6191) $17.00 small size.

And the P100 ( 3MR 100) pink pancake filter pads. $7.00 for a two pack.

They are light weight and easy to put on.

I put new ones on after 40 hours of use..so not too much of an expense.
Hope this helps
Lorraine

glass addict · #51 2008-08-28, 12:42pm

Here is a link for NO2 cartridges: (I never knew they existed!)

http://www.parkerindustrialsafety.co...URT100900.aspx

I found one company that makes them is Survivair Cartridges and Filters, part T100900.

Regards,
Mary

truly · #52 2008-08-29, 11:34pm

Thanks for all the links Heidi, very interesting info there. I am sorry to hear that you have had some nasty emails - why would people do that? Strange behaviour!

As i mentioned in my previous post here, the centre i attended for classes had no extraction and was badly ventilated. The owner told me that in September this year a new jewellery/lampworking suite was opening for the new classes so i was looking forward to taking the classes and learning new lampworking skills but when i went to see her to enquire about the classes and the new jewellery suite i discovered that: No extraction or special ventilation was being installed despite the room being smaller than the original one and the fact that both lampworking and silversmithing would be sharing the facility, possibly at the same time.

The fumes in that room would surely be not good for you? 8 people lampworking and 8 people torching PMC etc, i don't want to work like that in a class. Apparently there seems to be no safety standards set for people offering classes here - the owner discussed whether she should have to install adequate extraction/ventilation with a glass supplier and was told there were no H&S guides she needed to comply with above and beyond the standard 'public liability' laws here in the UK. I wondered if just asking a glass supplier was enough to warrant her not putting in extra venting/extraction.

She asked me why i had asked her about ventilation/extraction, i told her, and her reply was "Well we have never had any problems or complaints yet" and she gave me one of those looks.......i think she saw me as a potential troublemaker.

Needless to say, i won't be handing over my cash and taking the classes.
I know that i can't control my everyday environment but i can take some control over what i do by choice, namely lampworking, and i intend to work as safely as possible.

I thank you Heidi for your honesty and to everyone else who has contributed helpful advice here.
I am a lone lampworker from now on!

patty · #53 2008-10-30, 9:32pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heidi von Frozenfyre

After 17 years of the *best* possible ventilation in the bead studio all I can tell you is to get out and get out fast. Just wait till your lungs start to bleed, and you continue because you're addicted to glass for a few years after the first onset.
Lungs feel spongey... coughing up blood tinged sputum? Time to sell before it turns into emphesema (and I've never smoked)

Hello, I read your post tonight- I know it is old, but I am new to the site. I have been making beads for the past 4 years- up to 50-60 hours a week and began having asthma attacks out of the blue. This progressed to wheezing from 2-6am.... Anyway, this went on for 9 months and I finally had an episode of coughing up blood and spent a night in the hospital..... After all the tests, I was diagnosed with COPD (chronic obstructive pulmonary disease). My Dr. has told me to stop making beads, but at this point, I am too far invested and really can't stop- besides being addicted to it! He finally agreed to let me continue if and only if I wear a respirator. Currently I have a shield mounted on my torch and I have brought my vent down to the flame by dropping ductwork to just a couple inches above the flame. I feel this really pulls, but I am still worried about worsening my condition. I am currently stage 1 and there are only 3 stages to the disease. The last being.... well.... bad. real bad. ANY help or suggestions for respirators are greatly appreciated! I'm only 43, too young for this and have kids to put through college. This is my profession and I want to be able to continue.....Thanks so very much- I just joined the site today to get help on this... hope to hear from someone soon. It has been 9 months since the diagnosis, and I am finally ready to do something about it! Denial and all..... Thanks! How are you doing now and what has your experience been after all these years?
Edit/Delete Message

Lorraine Chandler · #54 2008-11-03, 11:22pm

Hi all I just wanted to update and say that I have switched to a full face respirator whenever I torch. Yes it took a little getting used to and I can still wear my headphones. It is a lightweight model and I hardly know it is on now.

Yes!! The worst problem is the itching nose...arrggggg!!!! I may have to try the straw idea too....

The half mask worked sorta, I could still smell the fumes, taste the fumes and my eyes burned and itched my face was red from the ambient heat , and NO I do not lean over the torch, and yes I am one of the more sensitive ones.

As soon as I started wearing the full mask, I came away from a torching session feeling just like I went in. Boy! was that ever a nice feeling.

The seal to my face is way better than a half mask. When you try one and compare you will know what a good seal is. It is like it has a little vacuum in the silicone. It really is a huge difference.

Please everyone, do all that you can to be as safe as you can in everyway.
Lorraine

lnew · #55 2008-11-04, 10:40am

I've had big concerns about lampworking and health also. Several months ago I finally found some "official" information on it, a report that was done by OSHA at an ISGB gathering (I sure hope I'm remembering this info correctly. I searched my computer for saved information but can't find it). Anyway, the study didn't find any contaminants near the torching area, not enough to make me worry, anyway. The report did say to take frequent breaks with hand washing and to lean back from the torch. Reading that eased my mind a little. I'd been torching on my drafty screened in porch for years with no ventilation. I finally built a room onto my house to make myself a safe studio since I do this fulltime and it's my primary source of income. My BF installed a 650 cfm fan, but who knows if the system is up to specs. I still find myself coughing alot and get a funny taste in my mouth when working with silvered glasses. Sometimes I feel queasy. Of course I've smoke a LOT of cigarettes in my lifetime but it's been over a year since I quit (this time) and I don't see any imrovement. I've often wondered myself if 20 or 30 years from now we'll see lots of lampworkers with lung disease. Of course, many of us could just be more susceptible to it than others.

LyndaJ · #56 2008-11-05, 9:31am

I use the n100 mask. It's marked as being good for welding fumes which include lead and silver. Makes a big difference.

If you're getting a funny taste in your mouth, that's an indication that you're getting exposed.

kaji_cat · #57 2008-11-25, 2:25pm

I get nauseous from some weird fumes that my oxycon gives off. The fumes are probably from the internal air compressors though, because a different air compressor I sometimes use for sandblasting gives off the same odor. But I never sandblast for very long and I wear a respirator while doing it, so the only time I have this problem is with my oxycon. The oxycon doesn't seem to get too hot, so I don't think it's overheating. Also, the smell is from the machine, not in the output gas.

I have an well tested enclosed benchtop with excellent ventilation (like a fume hood), lots of makeup air (an open garage), and I never have this problem when I use tanked oxygen. I thought the smell would go away with time, but after a year it's still there and it still makes me sick after a bit, so I try not to use the oxycon too much. Are weird smells normal for an oxycon? Do they give off anything dangerous?

Also, I'm thinking of building a small closet with its own separate ventilation (in and out) to alleviate the problem. Has anyone done something like that?

Carolyn M · #58 2008-11-26, 6:38am

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaji_cat

I get nauseous from some weird fumes that my oxycon gives off. The fumes are probably from the internal air compressors though, because a different air compressor I sometimes use for sandblasting gives off the same odor. But I never sandblast for very long and I wear a respirator while doing it, so the only time I have this problem is with my oxycon. The oxycon doesn't seem to get too hot, so I don't think it's overheating. Also, the smell is from the machine, not in the output gas.

I have an well tested enclosed benchtop with excellent ventilation (like a fume hood), lots of makeup air (an open garage), and I never have this problem when I use tanked oxygen. I thought the smell would go away with time, but after a year it's still there and it still makes me sick after a bit, so I try not to use the oxycon too much. Are weird smells normal for an oxycon? Do they give off anything dangerous?

Also, I'm thinking of building a small closet with its own separate ventilation (in and out) to alleviate the problem. Has anyone done something like that?

I would very much doubt oxycons give off anything dangerous as their main purpose is to provide relief for people with breathing problems. I would have this checked out if I was you.