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| Safety -- Make sure you are safe! |
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View Poll Results: Do you have propane tank(s) in your house?
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Yes, but only a maximum of 2 one-pound tanks
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76 |
10.60% |
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Yes, I keep my BBQ tank right next to me in the studio.
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212 |
29.57% |
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No, it always stays outside. I run the lines through a door/window.
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247 |
34.45% |
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No, it always stays outside. I have a plumbed line through the wall.
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182 |
25.38% |
2007-12-28, 10:31pm
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Fire n Sand Glass Art
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Join Date: Jun 11, 2005
Location: West MI
Posts: 1,108
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I had a enclosed vented box outside and ran a hose through the wall till last year. Would shut off the tank and burn off the line every session but not disconnect any of it. Hated the amount of snow I had to clear to get to the outside box in the winter, the pouring rain, spiders in the box, etc.
We hard lined into our house LP. I have 1 shut off right after the spot we tapped into, another one before my brass Y fitting and hoses, and the torch valves are the third. Also extended the black pipe for a crud catch or what ever they are called. I bleed the hoses every time. Love this setup and will do the same in the next house too.
Was happy to see a fellow lampworker buy my tank box when I no longer needed it. She still had her tank in the house  Making this was easy using left over wood from other projects and a little screen for the vent holes. Made it big enough to hold 2 tanks, never run out, never crusted up with snow or ice. Sat in the front, looked like it could have stored garden hoses.
Btw, even this set-up wasn't completely kosher or legal. The rubber torch hose running through the exterior wall violates code where I live and could have voided our homeowners insurance if we had a fire. I do believe however it was safe as long as you shut the tank off and burned the gas off every time.
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2008-01-07, 11:46am
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Member
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Join Date: Apr 05, 2006
Location: Virginia Beach. VA
Posts: 28
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Mike/Dale,
My Studio is in garage with propane always kept outside. I had drilled a hole through the wall and inserted copper pipe and ran my T-hose through that. After reading this I understand this is illegal so I am upgrading to the requirements of a permanent installation as outlined here. I have found most everything I need but where would I go to find flexible metal fuel gas line? I only need a foot or two but can't seem to find it anywhere. Your guidance and help would be most appreciated. Thanks
__________________
Stacey A
"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass...
It's about learning how to dance in the rain".
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2008-01-07, 12:12pm
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Gentleman of Leisure
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Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: A Little Bit West of Yosemite Valley
Posts: 5,200
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Try "soft drawn copper" tubing. Should be available "cut to length" (by the foot) at any "real " hardware store or home improvement center. They should also have fitting to connect it all up...
Dale
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San Francisco - A Few Toys Short of a Happy Meal
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2008-01-26, 9:13am
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Grounded from da Torch =(
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Join Date: Nov 08, 2005
Location: Davenport IA, Quad Cities.
Posts: 345
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeAurelius
CJ's book is FULL of some very bad things. For example, she adds a lot of fuel to the clear safety glass vs didymium debate in the safety chapter.
The problem as I see it (in my own not-so-humble opinion, of course  ) is that people read these books as if they are the un-mutable truth and bible. Got news for ya! They aren't. In many cases, these books are nothing more than an accident waiting to happen. CJ's been asked many times to update the photographs and "discussion" in her books to reflect current knowledge about safety topics, and she totally refuses to do so.
And when, if ever, she does change them, there is still going to be uncounted thousands of these books with bad information floating around the world.
I freely admit that I've been very outspoken in the past about CJ's attitude towards safety, and the post above shows that inspite of the tens of thousands of words about safety, it is still disregarded by those of us who put money ahead of safety.
It's a damn shame, and one day, someone is going to get seriously hurt or killed by following the practices shown in books like CJ's. |
I know this is way towards the front of the thread but I just started reading it today. I was at the library one day and came across her book, and while looking through it saw this stuff. I rented out the book so I could bring it home and 'update' the information on a blank peice of paper and tape it to the inside of the front where it was blank. I didn't write dirently on the book, and I put on there that it was updated directly for safety information. That was a few years ago, so hopefully a few newbies that have rented it out since then have gotten use out of the additions. This is something a lot of us could do with these types of books that others may come across later.
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8M w/ SM7 tip, 1 oxycon, house pressure propane wo0t.
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2008-01-26, 9:44am
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Grounded from da Torch =(
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Join Date: Nov 08, 2005
Location: Davenport IA, Quad Cities.
Posts: 345
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Ok. I have a 1000 LP gallon tank in the backyard. The house runs on it. lol. We're going to get natural gas piped in prolly this summer, but get a smaller LP tank ansd keep it back there for the torch. As the big LP tanks like that are supposed to hand out at least 20 ft from the structure (not like 20 ft and a brick wall is going to save anyone from the explosion of a 1000 gallon tank) wouldn't it stand to reason that all tanks should be stored at some kind of distance?
I have seen in some posts where people have said "if it explodes and takes out your house and 3 others" but if an explosion like this occurs at all, if the tank is close to a structure, the stucture is going to sustain damage, and then of course the damage amount is due in part to the amount of fuel, right?
The whole point of keeping the fuel outside is incase of the more likely event, it springs a leak. Then it wont pool in the house.
So is there much concern for the containers being stored so close to the structures then?
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8M w/ SM7 tip, 1 oxycon, house pressure propane wo0t.
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2008-01-26, 10:08am
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Gentleman of Leisure
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Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: A Little Bit West of Yosemite Valley
Posts: 5,200
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Other scenario is if house is burning wouldn't you want tank further away from flames ... Also if tank is leaking open spaces does two things, creates areas where air can circulate and allows leaking propane to dilute in air and keeps it away from ignition sources...
Dale
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San Francisco - A Few Toys Short of a Happy Meal
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2008-02-14, 12:22pm
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Fire n Sand Glass Art
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Join Date: Jun 11, 2005
Location: West MI
Posts: 1,108
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Pictures of what could happen.....
when you have your LP tank inside.
This is the story, LP tank used in the house.....
http://blog.mlive.com/kzgazette/2008..._leak_cau.html
I'm putting the whole story here too because it is important enough to not get lost down the road.
Investigators say gas leak caused house explosion
Posted by Rex Hall Jr. | Kalamazoo Gazette February 13, 2008 13:34PM
Categories: Breaking News
WHITE PIGEON -- Gas that caused a house to explode Tuesday in St. Joseph County probably leaked from a 20-pound tank used to fuel a propane heater in the basement, a Michigan State Police fire investigator said.
The gas seems to have ignited when 39-year-old David Stanley lit a cigarette, Sgt. Scott LeRoy said. Stanley, who was listed in stable condition this afternoon in the burn unit at Kalamazoo's Bronson Methodist Hospital, told investigators he had been using the propane heater as a secondary heat source for his home, which had electric heating, LeRoy said.
The 8:45 a.m. blast leveled the house, at 13565 U.S. 12, just west of White Pigeon, and rattled a nearby business and other houses. LeRoy said Stanley told investigators he climbed out of his basement after the explosion.
At the scene Tuesday, debris was scattered everywhere, and a hot tub was the only household item still recognizable near where the structure had stood. Police shut down U.S. 12 between Burke and Blue School roads for several hours after the explosion, and firefighters from five departments responded to the scene.
LeRoy said the blast remains under investigation and that authorities are still trying to determine what caused the tank to leak. He said investigators have been unable to locate the propane heater in the debris.
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2008-02-14, 12:35pm
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I have beady eyes
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Join Date: Jul 30, 2007
Location: Cornflakeville, Michigan
Posts: 289
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The good news is that the dog is ok - the explosion blew him clear out of the house, but Animal Control found him safe.
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Crista
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.
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2008-03-12, 1:58pm
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Member
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Join Date: Jun 21, 2007
Location: Duluth, MN
Posts: 77
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I live in northern MN and i've heard the questions as to why you keep tanks indoors. Some people keep them indoors because its -50 degrees outside sometimes during our 9 month winter. I keep my 100lbs outside, but i have had 10lbs inside before.
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Ben
Burning a tanked Phantom
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2008-03-12, 7:18pm
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Gentleman of Leisure
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Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: A Little Bit West of Yosemite Valley
Posts: 5,200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadymilkman23
I live in northern MN and i've heard the questions as to why you keep tanks indoors. Some people keep them indoors because its -50 degrees outside sometimes during our 9 month winter. I keep my 100lbs outside, but i have had 10lbs inside before.
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339 message to get to this point and you still do not get the message.... Ever hear of warmed outdoor enclosure.....
Dale
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San Francisco - A Few Toys Short of a Happy Meal
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2008-04-26, 4:00pm
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Member
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Join Date: Jun 21, 2007
Location: Duluth, MN
Posts: 77
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no.. what's that dale? Pretty sure i just said mine are kept outside.
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Ben
Burning a tanked Phantom
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2008-05-02, 8:05pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Nov 28, 2006
Location: New England
Posts: 1,096
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadymilkman23
I live in northern MN and i've heard the questions as to why you keep tanks indoors. Some people keep them indoors because its -50 degrees outside sometimes during our 9 month winter. I keep my 100lbs outside, but i have had 10lbs inside before.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadymilkman23
no.. what's that dale? Pretty sure i just said mine are kept outside.
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No. You didn't. See above... "10lbs inside before" (and the sorry excuse for people bringing theirs inside). Hence Dale's answer.
ETA: Look. This whole thing is in the interest of keeping people safe. Sometimes it seems as if it would be more productive to just bang our heads against the wall. If people are going to play with fire and know something is illegal &/or just plain dangerous, they should be responsible enough to find a solution that will keep them safe.
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________________________
"I am convinced that men are inherently lazy and women were created to kick their asses." ~Kendra
"Art enables us to find ourselves and lose ourselves at the same time." ~Thomas Merton
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2008-05-09, 7:54am
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Member
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Join Date: Jun 21, 2007
Location: Duluth, MN
Posts: 77
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BEFORE (past tense). I think there's a break down in communication here. When I first started I kept them inside, and now (present tense) they are kept outside where they belong. I can tell your not from the north where it gets below zero. Propane tanks should be kept outside.
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Ben
Burning a tanked Phantom
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2008-05-09, 8:43am
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Gentleman of Leisure
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Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: A Little Bit West of Yosemite Valley
Posts: 5,200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadymilkman23
. I keep my 100lbs outside, but i have had 10lbs inside before.
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Dale
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San Francisco - A Few Toys Short of a Happy Meal
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2008-05-13, 8:25am
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Member
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Join Date: Jun 21, 2007
Location: Duluth, MN
Posts: 77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadymilkman23
BEFORE (past tense). I think there's a break down in communication here. When I first started I kept them inside, and now (present tense) they are kept outside where they belong. I can tell your not from the north where it gets below zero. Propane tanks should be kept outside.
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Still the same post i said before. Still saying that tanks should be kept outside. I said i kept mine inside before, which means a few years ago. Been outside ever since. I don't know why you keep beating a dead horse, the past is the past.
If your priority is safety then you should be focusing on the people who keep their tanks inside now. I know keeping mine inside was not the safe thing to do so I stopped doing it.
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Ben
Burning a tanked Phantom
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2008-05-13, 2:44pm
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Gentleman of Leisure
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Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: A Little Bit West of Yosemite Valley
Posts: 5,200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadymilkman23
Still the same post i said before. Still saying that tanks should be kept outside. I said i kept mine inside before, which means a few years ago. Been outside ever since. I don't know why you keep beating a dead horse, the past is the past.
If your priority is safety then you should be focusing on the people who keep their tanks inside now. I know keeping mine inside was not the safe thing to do so I stopped doing it.
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Let it go......
Dale
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San Francisco - A Few Toys Short of a Happy Meal
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2008-05-20, 10:10pm
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Junior Member
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Join Date: May 19, 2008
Posts: 21
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Wow... there is so much terrific information on this thread and I'm not even halfway through it yet. I'm so glad I read this before attempting to set up my studio. Actually, finding this site may have actually saved my life and/or my families lives because originally I was going to put my studio in the basement and store the tanks down there, breifly considered hot head with mapp gas (still in the basement), but after reading some other threads I decided it was best to put the studio out in my detached garage, but I thought it would be ok to store the tanks inside the garage since it's detached from the house. I'm so glad I read this... I apparently have alot to learn and take into consideration before I actually set up my studio.
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2008-05-29, 9:43am
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*goofball*
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Join Date: Aug 27, 2005
Location: Dubuque, Iowa
Posts: 183
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I have a question? I was just able to get my hands on a place to torch in an old storage room in a very old bldg. Out side the window is the roof to a shorter part of the bldg. I would like to put it outside the window, How could i disguise it and keep it outside the window??. I would have to bring it home with me when done torching for the day. So i would be using a small tank.
Thanks in advance, SL
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2008-05-29, 11:49am
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Gentleman of Leisure
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Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: A Little Bit West of Yosemite Valley
Posts: 5,200
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I'm not in favor of keeping tank on adjacent roof of building. Its a safety issue for others, not just you....
If you keep it up there, and there is a fire, how are firefighters going to know there is a concealed bomb waiting to go off....
Best solution would be a ventilated lock-up cabinet on ground with propane safety warnings on cabinet and metal piping to bring low pressure propane into studio.
Dale
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San Francisco - A Few Toys Short of a Happy Meal
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2008-05-29, 2:03pm
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Cancer SUCKS!
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Join Date: Oct 23, 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 5,083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale M.
I'm not in favor of keeping tank on adjacent roof of building. Its a safety issue for others, not just you....
If you keep it up there, and there is a fire, how are firefighters going to know there is a concealed bomb waiting to go off....
Best solution would be a ventilated lock-up cabinet on ground with propane safety warnings on cabinet and metal piping to bring low pressure propane into studio.
Dale
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Ok, not sure if you saw in Shawns post, but she stated that she would be bringing the tank home each time she torched. I suggested a pack n roll like this http://www.spacesavers.com/handycart.html . she would be able to wheel the porpane in it, put it out the window, then wheel it back home.
It sounds like an ok idea to me. I know that she has a handle on the ventilation too.
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Deb in MN
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2008-05-29, 3:43pm
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Gentleman of Leisure
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Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: A Little Bit West of Yosemite Valley
Posts: 5,200
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I saw the comment about taking it home at night...
Do you realize the risk of moving tank every time you want to use it, and transporting it in car trunk or back of PU every time you want "go to the studio" to work.... I think the risks are greater the more time you spend in car with tank.... The risk of a problem increases every time you take it up and down the stairs....
Sometimes just because you can find a "space" does not make it practical because of safety considerations....
Dale
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San Francisco - A Few Toys Short of a Happy Meal
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2008-06-17, 2:16pm
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Junior Member
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Join Date: May 14, 2008
Posts: 6
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Once upon a time, a friend I was visiting said, "Hey! You want me to show you how to make beads?" She had a HotHead, a 1lb canister of MAPP and some glass, and we set up in her back yard. Some days I *ALMOST* wish someone would've stepped in and said, "Don't try it! If you like it, you're going to find yourself with a very expensive and dangerous hobby! Best not even to know."
I hate the inconsistent flame I get from the 1lb cannisters of MAPP and have been considering getting a new torch and switching to propane. After reading this discussion though, I'm starting to think it'd be safer to have a professional come out and add a natural gas hookup for me. I'm not sure. I'm still very overwhelmed and have a ton of questions - which obviously means I need to research more.
Thanks for all the great information in this discussion though. If I do opt for propane, at least I'm armed with a lot of knowledge on how to do that as safely as possible.
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2008-06-17, 3:39pm
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Gentleman of Leisure
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Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: A Little Bit West of Yosemite Valley
Posts: 5,200
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It's not all that bad...... Simple rule is Propane tank outside. If you want to bring "fuel" inside, its the same piping technique (and rules) as natural gas piping....
http://www.artglassanswers.com/forum...opic.php?t=208
Dale
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San Francisco - A Few Toys Short of a Happy Meal
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2008-07-15, 2:41pm
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Member
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Join Date: Jul 08, 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 32
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Hello,
I am very new here and to lampworking so am very interested in this thread.
I am (possibly now 'was') going to be buying all the basic equipment later this week and as i was quite wary of using bulk fuel (propane) i telephoned the company selling the lampworking equipment for advice and information. I was told that it is perfectly fine to have a propane tank in the house so long as it had a regulator and propane flashback arrestor and was told that many of the propane fuelled fires that people use in the house as heaters are not as safe.
Also:In the event that i was worried about a gas leak i was told to 'fill an old washing-up liquid bottle with water and just a little of the washing-up liquid in it and squirt it into the area. If bubbles formed in the air then i had a gas leak and if not, everything was fine.
As to ventilation, i was told that having a window open and the room door open would be sufficient to ensure air flow.
After reading many many posts here on various safety issues i am worried about what i should do.
What should i do?
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2008-07-15, 4:19pm
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Gentleman of Leisure
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Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: A Little Bit West of Yosemite Valley
Posts: 5,200
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Seeing that you location is the UK, keep in mind that the rules/laws vary from country to country...... IT may be perfectly legal to keep propane tank inside in your country...... Is it perfectly safe, no... Bottom line is you comfort level....
My comfort level dictates propane tanks stays outside at all times....
Dale
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San Francisco - A Few Toys Short of a Happy Meal
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2008-07-25, 5:26pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Feb 06, 2008
Location: Southern NH
Posts: 1,015
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All I know is that I have paid careful attention to safety advice in this forum...and it has helped me make good decisions. I hope that everyone will realize that we can agree to disagree. In the end, LE members can consider the great advice and make informed decisions. So in the interest of keeping everybody safe, I would hope that you knowledgeable folks Dale AND Mike will keep the info coming. Life is too short!
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2008-09-05, 3:17pm
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Oh No You Didn't!
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Join Date: May 27, 2006
Location: Squaw Valley, CA
Posts: 1,454
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Okay, I have a question. If a propane tank is outside and it's 100 plus degrees out, wouldn't that make the propane hot enough to explode?
I admit that I have my propane tank inside at present, but only because I worry about what will happen if it sits in the heat.
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Starburst & Nebula Style Bead Tutorial is Finished!
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My name is............. Deb
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Minor/Propane/1 oxycon
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2008-09-05, 6:41pm
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Gentleman of Leisure
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Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: A Little Bit West of Yosemite Valley
Posts: 5,200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogsongstudio
Okay, I have a question. If a propane tank is outside and it's 100 plus degrees out, wouldn't that make the propane hot enough to explode?
I admit that I have my propane tank inside at present, but only because I worry about what will happen if it sits in the heat.
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NO...... There are ten's of thousands of propane tank outside in 100 degree heat all over the world. ... At 100 degrees internal tank pressure is 177psi.... This is well below the safety over pressure valve relief pressure of 375psi...
http://www.teecoproducts.com/catalog/A11.htm
The ignition temperature of propane is around 920-1029°F so if there is nothing available at at least minimal temperature to ignite the propane it will not explode (technically) . Even if tank does rupture because of a mechanical fault it does not mean it will ignite the propane unless there is a spark or flame present to cause ignition... It may simply release the propane as a cloud and dissipate in air...
Here is some interesting reading about propane.
http://www.propane101.com/
http://www.pioneerrentalsinc.com/opd.htm
http://www.flameengineering.com/Propane_Info.html
Hope you change your mind about where you keep your tank.
Dale
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San Francisco - A Few Toys Short of a Happy Meal
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2008-09-28, 6:24pm
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Ad astra per aspera
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Join Date: Jun 15, 2005
Location: Apache Junction AZ
Posts: 7,324
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Please change your mind! One of my son's friends lost his home last year because of a tank stored in a garage. The fire dept stated that had the tank NOT been in the garage, much of the house could have been saved. It started as a small fire from an overloaded outlet nearby in the garage, spread to a stack of newspapers and then to a can of paint thinner (I mean, how many bad things can someone store together???? sheesh!). It was still "potentially minor" until the propane tank blew. One of the firefighters was injured because of flying bits of tank. 
We live in AZ. Our peak temp 2 summers ago on our back porch was 122 in the shade. The two tanks we have live at the side of the house, on the opposite side of our garden walkway from the house, next to a block wall. They're mostly in shade except for summer morning sun, but some mornings it can be 105 by 9 a.m. We still have both tanks AND our house.
Please keep your tanks outside where they belong.
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Karen Sherwood
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2008-09-28, 7:10pm
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Oh No You Didn't!
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Join Date: May 27, 2006
Location: Squaw Valley, CA
Posts: 1,454
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I am working on getting the tanks outdoors. 
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Starburst & Nebula Style Bead Tutorial is Finished!
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My name is............. Deb
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Minor/Propane/1 oxycon
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