Health Hazards? What are they?

gemsinbloom · #1 2010-02-25, 7:04pm

Over the years I have heard countless times how important it is to have your air circulating well while torching yet I have never heard what the exact health hazards are.

Input?

BeadBlossoms · #2 2010-02-25, 7:09pm

You can search in the safety forum - there's enough to keep you busy for days......and lots of very good explanations on ventilation and make up air.

Dale M. · #3 2010-02-25, 10:21pm

Two most basic are :

Carbon Monoxide (CO) poisoning, and Nitrogen Oxide (NOX) poising....

Lots written here and on Internet... (hint GOOGLE search)...

Dale

gemsinbloom · #4 2010-02-26, 10:28am

(hint) this is a forum where I thought dialog was encouraged. That is what I was looking for, oh wells. I was aware of the CO and NOX poisoning. I was more interested to hear if anyone has experienced strange unexplained symptoms etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dale M.

Two most basic are :

Carbon Monoxide (CO) poisoning, and Nitrogen Oxide (NOX) poising....

Lots written here and on Internet... (hint GOOGLE search)...

Dale

CO_Phantom · #5 2010-02-26, 10:40am

There was talk in another thread about copper and someone getting ill and now she won't use copper in her beads without all but a hazmat suit.

We were wondering over in that thread what type of symptoms working with copper would give you, and if it was really really that dangerous. I mean, obviously *I'm* not going to go light the torch and turn my bathroom vent fan on and think that's going to be OK, but there are tons of us who use copper and don't think of any extra precautions or evil disease that will come from using it. (Like we put on masks when working with enamels, are very cautious when working with silver.)

-Amy

Lorraine Chandler · #6 2010-02-26, 10:46am

The symptoms I have read about here and Wetcanvas etc. have been:

Dizzyness
shortness of breath
chest pains
shakyness
fatique/lethargy
panic attacks
headache
eye strain
eyes tired and itchy and swollen
heat rashes
gritty dirty face
a type of sunburn from the heat of the torch
bad taste in mouth
strong bleach type odor
sinus pains
**********************
neck, shoulder, elbow, wrist arm pains
leg pains, back pains, numbness in limbs
aches in fingers that twirl the mandrel
body fatique...just to name a few

Hope this helps?

I know there are more but I can't recall all of them

Lorraine

gemsinbloom · #7 2010-02-26, 10:51am

That helps a great deal, thanks very much!

I have been experiencing some strange symptoms for quite a few years and because many tests I have had have come back negative I was wondering if it could be linked to my work.

Thanks again

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorraine Chandler

The symptoms I have read about here and Wetcanvas etc. have been:

Dizzyness
shortness of breath
chest pains
shakyness
fatique/lethargy
panic attacks
headache
eye strain
eyes tired and itchy and swollen
heat rashes
gritty dirty face
a type of sunburn from the heat of the torch
bad tatse in mouth
strong bleach type odor
sinus pains
**********************
neck, shoulder, elbow, wrist arm pains
leg pains, back pains, numbness in limbs
aches in fingers that twirl the mandrel
body fatique...just to name a few

Hope this helps?

I know there are more but I can't recall all of them

Lorraine

CO_Phantom · #8 2010-02-26, 9:02pm

Lorraine--

That list is more specifically for GIB's question regarding make up air/ventilation in general, right?

What about copper specifically? (The dizziness, SOB, chest pain, etc. might be related to copper, but sound more like exposure to lampworking fumes w/o proper ventilation in general).

-Amy

Lorraine Chandler · #9 2010-02-26, 10:24pm

Gosh Amy, I don't know. I know everyone reacts differently and I am especially sensitive to all of it so I wear overkill.

I want to feel the same when I am through with a project as when I started doing a project no matter what I am doing, metalwork, silverwork, glasswork, polymerclay, PMC etc.

So if you are not feeling exactly the same I would certainly look into it because you are not getting the protection you need somewhere.

Lorraine

CO_Phantom · #10 2010-02-27, 4:16pm

Definitely true.

-Amy

funkibeads · #11 2010-02-27, 10:03pm

This is an important question which I have been pondering about too. A while ago I came across the "Boromax User Manual" pub 2007 by Glass Alchemy Ltd & the health and safety pages make for some serious thought to how important it is for good ventilation in our studios.

It is very sobering to consider we regularly are working with heavy metals which are the colourants in our glass such as cadmium, cobalt, copper, chrome, rare earths, aluminium, boron, silver, manganese etc to name but a few. And not forgetting lead - look what that did to the mad hatter

They have done lots of research for us and for a start their website H&S pages will give you some very detailed information to the question.

[url="http://glassalchemy.com/index.php/resources/safety"]

Don't want to scare anyone - but it's better to be safe than sorry. Or forewarned is fore-armed... Greg

NMLinda · #12 2010-02-28, 7:12am

It's been a couple of years since I saw the posts by the LE member who'd experienced what she considered to be rather significant copper over-exposure, but I think she posted feeling pronounced 'mental fog' and some other more serious symptoms. The body requires copper in trace amounts - the problem is that using copper inclusions can expose you to far more than the trace amounts that the body can handle because it fumes as it's worked in the flame and, as this LE member discovered when she had her work area tested, it can condense all over. The other problem with copper is that it competes with zinc in the body for absorption, as I understand it, so a high copper exposure can cause your body to go low in zinc, which can cause other health issues.

Copper is just one trace element that can cause serious health issues in excess concentrations. As funkibeads points out, there are other heavy metals such as the colorants used in glass - all the more reason to have superb ventilation to keep exposure to a minimum. However, the concentrations of colorants in glass are typically a lot lower than the exposures created by inclusions, such as copper, and fuming (eg silver or gold).

Another area where we can experience high concentrations of heavy metals is lampworking with skeleton keys. These can be plated with relatively thick amounts of zinc - which is just as bad in high amounts as copper - nickle, cadmium, and other elements used as 'brighteners' in plating baths.

And then, we like to etch our beads. The etchants used to frost glass use hydroflouric acid or related agents that can dissolve bone. Even though the acid content can be reasonably strong in some etching brands, HF is sneaky in that it doesn't make your skin feel like it's burning - it absorbs through the skin and attacks the bone tissue. Treatment can require a trip to the hospital for injections of a neutralizing base if it's not immediately flushed off the skin. The fumes are not particularly good to breathe, either.

These are just a few things that come to mind, but I think you're looking for a comprehensive health/hazard impact survey. I don't think anyone has done such, not that it isn't a very good idea, so Dale wasn't trying to fob you off. I've been reading an increasing number of posts by LE'ers starting to experience health impacts over the years as lampworking has become more popular. Most of what I've read seems to be related to insufficient ventilation, but there have been some specific discussions on heavy metal poisioning and related symptoms. There may be combined effects that some members have experienced. It truly is worth reading back through this and other forums, since there is no one central discussion that I know of. Each person seems to react differently, but after a while, some common impacts might be apparent, such as the ones Lorraine has posted.

I would also encourage anyone doing lampworking to be aware of the composition of the materials they are using, be aware of common plating constituents, and look up any MSDS or health hazard publications associated with either.

Linda

pam · #13 2010-02-28, 8:31am

One other thing that has bothered me for a while is people putting "whatever" into the flame or onto the glass.

There are lots of really dangerous things that should not be heated to the extent you would on hot glass or in a flame. Just as an example, stump dissolver, which is highly explosive, was suggested as part of a formula for use in the flame on glass beads.

If you find something in a local store that you think you can use as a tool making beads, please be aware that if it is pot metal it can explode. Ask me how I know!

Mr. Meker · #14 2010-02-28, 2:34pm

Zinc fume fever is no fun-- ask me how I know....

Stump disolver is not explosive by itself.

CO_Phantom · #15 2010-02-28, 3:32pm

What is pot metal?

When I'm scavenging for repurposed tools, I make sure to check that it's stainless steel or brass and not plated. I don't like to stick anything in the flame that isn't of a composition I know to be ok for fire.

As lampworkers, we are exposed to many hazards that could kill us if we aren't careful. Being aware of the risks is something any responsible person should make sure of. Research and MSDS sheets are always a good thing.

-Amy

pam · #16 2010-02-28, 4:26pm

Check the msds for the stump dissolver. I haven't yet found one that did not say explosive, but you could be right.

Pot metal is just kind of like that inexpensive metals used as a base for usually inexpensive items. I took a class for Suellen Fowler and she had a most ingenious reamer that no one made (now they do), so I kept my eyes open and one day found a lemon reamer that was similar in shape, but you could tell it was cheap metal. I bought it for a couple bucks, took it home and used it. It actually exploded in the flame. I guess it was hollow an when the air expanded it went boom! Okay, not quite boom, but it cracked and pieces of metal fell onto my work bench.

CO_Phantom · #17 2010-02-28, 5:19pm

That would have scared the crap out of me!

-Amy

eyeskatermum · #18 2010-02-28, 10:11pm

Let me tell you that Carbon Monoxide poisoning is not picnic. I kept asking my hubbie if I had enough ventilation. As a welder I thought he would know. Well to make a long story short, I got very sick. Thank goodness he was home to see what I had been saying for a while. I think he thought I was just being a fetch (I'd use the yiddish, but I think you get the drift with that word). He got frightened. Now my torch table has been moved and he is installing a new vent system for me. We are installing both a smoke detector and a CO2 detector as well to make sure that the vent is working 100% at all times. He will be done in a week and I can again return to melting. BTW I also have a fire extinguisher right at the end of my table (always have). He did have the valves done correctly on the tanks (which are outside), just the airflow wasn't strong enough to remove the fumes.

I would hate to give up my glass, it's so a part of me now. But at the same time I don't want it to kill me either.

parisgal · #19 2010-02-28, 10:37pm

If you think you're being impacted by work in with glass, I would definitely get tested for heavy metals. There's a whole panel, and about 5 of them can be very problematic (Sb and Arsenic are two on that list). And I would insist on starting with the blood test, not the hair test. The hair will pick up metals from airborne metals that don't get into the system, so it regularly gives false positives, particularly for situations like ours. JMO

Armstrong · #20 2010-03-01, 12:47pm

Are there any similar dangers to soldering silver? I was just thinking the other day about the fact that there is no ventilation at the art institute where I had taken classes. Would there be any fumes involved in that process also?

thanks-
Ana

Lorraine Chandler · #21 2010-03-01, 1:51pm

Soldering silver dangers? YES!! In the corporate world all clean room tables have exhaust systems and everyone has proper masks for silver solder. VERY DANGEROUS.

Frit is very bad also, ask what the frit makers wear at BE glass? I think it amounts to a hazard suit.

Lorraine

Mr. Meker · #22 2010-03-01, 9:22pm

Stump remover is an accelerant, just like oxygen.

There was a piece of zinc on my bench that looked like a piece of silver I had seen the day before. To make a long story short, I thought it was silver and tried to fume with it. Exploded into a bunch of blue flaming drops with some white smoke. Pretty exciting. Zinc fever takes about a day and a half to set in and keeps you sick for 3-4 days. Barium poisoning is even worse, but dont ask about that

.

Dale M. · #23 2010-03-02, 7:50am

Stump Remover comes in two forms "potassium nitrate" and "copper sulfate"...

Potassium nitrate is a component in "black powder" (acceleration to explosive) among other things and copper sulfate can be used for "electroforming" among other things...

Read label with care.....

Dale

Mr. Meker · #24 2010-03-02, 5:29pm

Read post with care...

Quote:

Originally Posted by meker

Stump remover is an accelerant, just like oxygen.

MSDS for potassium nitrate-
http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/p5950.htm

MSDS for compressed oxygen-
www.energas.co.uk/downloads/017.pdf

And just for kicks, here is something that we should REALLY be worried abouthttp://www.dhmo.org/ . Torch flames produce copious quantities of this.

pam · #25 2010-03-02, 6:19pm

Potassium Nitrate - Potassium nitrate is a component in explosives and is an explosion hazard when heated above 530 degrees C or 986 degrees F.

The short term effects of exposure include eye and skin irritation, respiratory tract irritation, coughing and wheezing. High levels of exposure can interfere with the blood's ability to carry oxygen, causing headaches, dizziness, cyanosis, and methemoglobinemia, with blue color to the skin and lips. Higher levels can cause breathing difficulties, collapse and death.

Mr. Meker · #26 2010-03-02, 6:42pm

Just because someone suggests something does not mean you have to do it.

Eating enough of that stuff to make you sick would be as hard as mistaking bleach for vinegar. It's used in making toothpaste. I would be more worried about the nitrogen oxides from when it decomposes when heated.

funkibeads · #27 2010-03-02, 7:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by meker

Read post with care...

And just for kicks, here is something that we should REALLY be worried abouthttp://www.dhmo.org/ . Torch flames produce copious quantities of this.

Mr Meker - you have me reaching for the whisky bottle & no I don't take water. As W.C. Fields said "Do you know what fish do in it..."

But seriously, who is advocating putting saltpetre in beads ? They should be run out of town. That is pure madness. Add that to the fact it might skew wiff their libido for gosh knows how long. Ex from wiki: "Saltpetre is thought to decrease sex drive, but there is no scientific evidence to support that the substance causes such an effect." Plenty more links where that came from...

Keep to bubble beads with baking soda I say - that can't harm you can it ?

On a more very serious note someone mentioned fire extinguishers. I have a large CO2 canister and a small dry powder canister in my little studio. I had a fire engineer in to assess risks and he thought water based ones would be unwise as there are electrics for the kiln, lighting and vents. I check the extinguishers every six months. The CO2 is a blast. Also, where I store my propane (outside, of course, with a hose up and through the wall to the studio on the 1st floor) I have two fire buckets full of damp sharp sand ready if needed.

Bear in mind it is better to be safer than sorry. All good things Greg.

PS: Re fuming metals: Respirators are comparatively cheap - lung transplants are extremely

expensive. You know it makes sense. Zinc poisoning - eeuughh bleh bleh

Mr. Meker · #28 2010-03-02, 7:55pm

I am definetely in the market for a respirator. If anyone can provide me a link to a really good moderately priced one, I'd be all over that.

I have a small fire extinguisher in my studio and another on about 20 yards away.

pam · #29 2010-03-02, 8:17pm

Actually, there was an article in a magazine not too many years ago that advocated using stump remover on beads, so it's not as farfetched as one might think, and yes, it is very dangerous.

Lorraine Chandler · #30 2010-03-03, 12:35am

This is the respirator I use. You can buy them from welding supply stores, or online..they are very comfortable and have excellent viewing. Some full face respirators are horrible to see out of.

This one is also lightweight and very comfortable.

http://www.amazon.com/Sperian-766184.../dp/B001ULCHMC

Lorraine