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Safety -- Make sure you are safe!

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  #1  
Old 2009-08-10, 8:00pm
ShellyJo1969 ShellyJo1969 is offline
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Default PROPER PLUMBING of PROPANE INTO STUDIO

I was studying the diagram that Dale did titled
PROPER METHOD OF PLUMBING PROPANE INTO A STUDIO and it showed a shut off valve on each side of iron pipe through wall.

And I realized I don't have those yet (shut off valves) I still have to get the iron/black pipe also, but I also don't have the shut off valves yet nor do I know how to install them?

For the propane set up I have:
* propane tank
* a regulator
* flashback arrestor
* T-grade gas line

Where do i get shut off valves , black pipe, and how do you install them onto your setup?

Thank You Very Much, your help in so appreciated!
Michele
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Old 2009-08-10, 10:23pm
NMLinda NMLinda is offline
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Below is a link to an excellent tutorial posted by DeAnne/Theglasszone

http://lampworketc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125930

You can get all the parts you need at places like Home Depot, Lowes, or most hardware stores. You'll need to drill a hole in the side of your studio about 3/4" to 1" in diameter so that the pipe will go through (measure the outer diameter of the pipe to be sure what size hole you need). Drill it so that one side is right next to a stud in your studio wall. That way you can secure the pipe to the stud with one or two of the pipe clamps she shows in her pictures (I prefer 2 - more stable). If you look at the second to last picture, you can assemble one end, as she's shown, feed the pipe through the wall, secure it with the pipe clamps (means you need access to the broad side of the wall stud, hidden if there is any interior wall covering), then assemble the other end. What she shows assumes that you will use a section of T-grade hose between the black pipe assembly and the regulator of your tank. It also assumes that you will use a section of T-grade hose between the other end of the black pipe assembly and your torch (preferably into a flashback arrestor, first, which would then be attached to your torch).

Linda

Last edited by NMLinda; 2009-08-10 at 10:24pm. Reason: duplicate signature
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Old 2009-08-10, 10:30pm
ShellyJo1969 ShellyJo1969 is offline
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Thanks Again Linda, I'm going to check it out.
Michele
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Old 2009-08-10, 11:13pm
ShellyJo1969 ShellyJo1969 is offline
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OK, I used this link you provided (thanks) for a guide to getting the proper propane fittings etc.
http://lampworketc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125930

Here's the parts I picked out:
http://www.fastfittings.com/cart

But I couldn't find a brass elbow that matched the one in the tutorial. THis is all I could find, will it work? http://www.fastfittings.com/brass-elbow-female

ALSO, is that black pipe that is threaded on both ends called "Pipe Nipple"? That's all i can find that is threaded on both ends?
http://www.cornerhardware.com/search...e_nipple/10955

thanks
Michele
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Last edited by ShellyJo1969; 2009-08-11 at 12:34am.
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  #5  
Old 2009-08-11, 7:55am
NMLinda NMLinda is offline
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Unfortunately, the link doesn't show what you had in your shopping cart, at least not on my browser, so I can't comment. You can find the brass elboes, like the ones in the tutorial, quite easily at your local hardware store. I suppose the one you found would work, but it looks like it's more expensive than what DeAnne showed in her tut and what you would find at Home Depot and places like that. Be sure you really need one, though. If you're just going straight through the wall and don't have to work around an obstacle, you may not need an elboe (like her second to last picture). Yep, the black pipe that's threaded at both ends is called Pipe Nipple. They come in all sorts of lengths, but 10" is convenient for going through a wall.

The best thing to do, if you haven't already done this, is to first make a simple drawing of how you think you need to lay out your black pipe so that you have a better idea what to buy. Then go to your local hardware store or Home Depot, find everything you think you need, and then find a quiet spot to lay things out end-to-end as you plan to assemble them. I recommend doing this before you go to the cash register. That way, you can compare to your drawing (I'd take along DeAnne's wonderful tut, too) make sure you have the right fittings, that the fittings you picked are the right size for the pipe, the fittings have the right gender on the right end, and you haven't forgotten something. As you're looking through the various brass fittings, you may find something that will help simplify what you're doing. For example, DeAnne's tut shows a brass reducer between the end of the pipe nipple and the brass fitting that has the hose barb on the end. I happened to find a hose barb-to-pipe thread fitting that connected directly, so I didn't need to buy the adapter. Or, some of the parts DeAnne used might be out of stock, but there are other fittings you can string together that would work just as well.

Good luck!
Linda
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Old 2009-09-10, 12:54am
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I posted this question on DeAnne's tut as well but I thought I'd put it here too...

I have a question....is it ok to set up the piping so that the regulator is inside the studio rather than outside on the tank? I would want to put it just past the inside cutoff valve. I'm using a barbeque tank..they will be putting a locked cage or box over it on the outside...this building is a "historical" structure so we are limited as to what we can do on the outside of the building

The bldg manager plans to set up proper propane access to the studios where glassworkers are set up and I want to give her the best info I can to make sure it's not only done right for safety's sake but also the most convienient for the artists when it's snowing outside (*grin*)

Last edited by DPete1104; 2009-09-10 at 1:00am.
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  #7  
Old 2009-09-10, 6:11am
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In most places NFPA codes prohibits bringing propane into building at tank pressures (125 psi) but they do allow pressure up to 10 psi under most circumstances....

IT is very possible to put a intermediate fixed pressure regulator set to 10 psi at tank, and then inside put a adjustable regulator, this will give you a range of 0 to 10 psi inside studio...

IF its a "commercial" space building manage may want to go through permit and inspection processes to insure all is safe....

Dale
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Last edited by Dale M.; 2009-09-10 at 6:13am.
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Old 2009-09-10, 12:15pm
NMLinda NMLinda is offline
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The intermediate fixed pressure regulator seems like a really good idea - lets you bring in a safer propane pressure into the building, and then it's easy to do final adjustments from the inside

Linda
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  #9  
Old 2009-09-10, 7:16pm
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where do you get one and how much does it cost?
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Old 2009-09-10, 7:29pm
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Search internet "propane regulators 10 psi"..........

I don't have specific site or pricing, but that are out there, I have seen them wile doing searches for other items...

Here is one example of what I found....

http://www.gasngrills.com/fixed-10-p...200-f1004.html

There is probably better regulators and better pricing, but they do exist...

Dale
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Old 2009-09-22, 4:57pm
Ravenesque Ravenesque is offline
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I'm confused..on a lot of things..but main thing for now is the regulator inside bit.

I didn't think of it until she(?) mentioned it, but, if it's not inside, how do you see your gauge? Isn't that on the regulator? I always thought it was.
(I don't have one yet, as you can tell I suppose!)

I really really need someone to just come do all this for me
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Old 2009-09-22, 6:46pm
NMLinda NMLinda is offline
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The beauty of the fixed-value, intermediate regulator idea is that it lets you "step down" the inherently high pressure of your propane tank to something that's safer to take through the wall and into your building/work area, at which point you can install the adjustable type regulator (the type you're probably more familiar with) inside where you can see the dial guage and conveniently reach it. Since the fixed regulator is a known psi value, it doesn't need a guage. With this kind of two-step regulator approach, if it's cold or nasty and you need to adjust your propane, you can make your adjustments inside where it's cozy.

Linda
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Old 2009-09-22, 6:58pm
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that's exactly what I was thinking...I live in Michigan now and I wasn't looking forward to having to go outside and dig out my tank every time I needed to adjust the pressure. This wasy they can build him a nice lil box and I can turn it on from the inside at the wall and set my pressure....

Thanks Dale
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Old 2009-09-23, 10:20am
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Thank you so much for this tutorial, I had some of the info but seeing it in pictures makes a world of difference for me. My questions may seem obvious but I want to make sure I do it right.

1. From the tank end outside, is it fixed regulator 10 PSI, then flashback arrestor, then T-grade hosing to the pipe?

2. What is the proper way to use the shut-off valve? Do you turn on the tank outside, open the shut-off valve outside then inside?

3. How do you bleed the lines when you are done for the day? Do you turn off the propane tank outside leaving both shut-off valves open--then shut both valves?

4. With all these safety measures in place, is it important to have 2 flashback arrestors and two quick disconects?

Thank you!
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Last edited by Heart Fire; 2009-09-23 at 10:40am. Reason: clarity
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  #15  
Old 2009-09-23, 3:12pm
NMLinda NMLinda is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heart Fire View Post

1. From the tank end outside, is it fixed regulator 10 PSI, then flashback arrestor, then T-grade hosing to the pipe?
What I would do is the fixed regulator followed by either soft copper tubing or T-grade hosing, followed by a gas shut-off valve, followed by black pipe through the wall. I would put the flashback arrestor at the torch, either as a stand-alone item if you don't plan on using quick connects, or as part of a Safety Quick Connect

Quote:
2. What is the proper way to use the shut-off valve? Do you turn on the tank outside, open the shut-off valve outside then inside?
I would likely leave the shut-off valve open outside. I would turn on the tank outside and open the shut-off valve inside.

Quote:
3. How do you bleed the lines when you are done for the day? Do you turn off the propane tank outside leaving both shut-off valves open--then shut both valves?
Yes, with the exception that I would leave the outside shut-off valve open.

Quote:
4. With all these safety measures in place, is it important to have 2 flashback arrestors and two quick disconects?
I recommend having a flashback arrestor at the torch for both the oxygen and propane lines. That catches and supresses the flashback right at the point of origin, and protects from the torch all the way backward: it's not necessary to have a second set at the tank.

I have multiple torches, so for me, quick connects are convenient. If you only have one torch, they're not really necessary. Some folks have quick connects at the tank, which makes sense if you need to move the tank as you work but store it elsewhere when not in use, which doesn't sound like your case. I think some folks use them for disconnecting the tank to fill. I haven't figured out how that's helpful, since you have to disconnect everything from the tank, regardless, to get it filled, so it's not something I've bothered have at my tank. There may be an advantage that I'm not aware of, however.

Linda
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Old 2009-09-23, 5:03pm
Ravenesque Ravenesque is offline
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You guys are so awesome, thanks so much!
I've been reading forever but it's just so weird to figure.

That about answers most, and what Heart Fire asked were my next ones heh.

But one thing, where does the gauge go, like in sequence for #1? Because yes that's what I was picturing, digging in the snow to see
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Old 2009-09-23, 5:57pm
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thank you so much Linda! The information from yourself and others is so helpful. I am looking forward to having my studio set up in a safe manner.

Lois
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Old 2009-09-23, 6:25pm
NMLinda NMLinda is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenesque View Post
You guys are so awesome, thanks so much!
I've been reading forever but it's just so weird to figure.

That about answers most, and what Heart Fire asked were my next ones heh.

But one thing, where does the gauge go, like in sequence for #1? Because yes that's what I was picturing, digging in the snow to see
The fixed regulator outside you'd most likely buy won't have a guage - doesn't need one. If you buy an adjustable regulator like the ones most of us lampworkers use, it will have the guage built in as part of it. The adjustable regulator goes on the inside of your work area in the propane line (no digging through snow to see it!)

Linda
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Old 2009-09-24, 6:03am
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I'm missing why you need to be able to see your gauge. I've never adjusted it after it was set for working pressure.

I go out to the tank, turn it on, check the needle on the gauge. If it goes up to 8, I come in the house and work. I never even think about that regulator after the initial turning on of the propane.

Why are you guys adjusting your pressure often enough to worry about being able to see your gauge?

I'm asking because I might be missing something really important while I'm working and I'm curious as to what it is.

At 8-10# pressure, I adjust at the torch the level of propane 'flow' I want. What is the benefit of micro-managing the regulator?

~~Mary
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Last edited by Moth; 2009-09-24 at 6:10am.
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Old 2009-09-24, 6:08am
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As far as digging through the snow to see it, I'd already had to have dug through the snow just to turn the tank on...so it isn't saving me a trip.


Are you guys leaving your outside tank and shut off valve ON all the time, and turning off only the inside valve? Because I think that is not wise. Your connections at any point of this set up could spring a leak at any time and unless your tank is off entirely you aren't safe.

Granted, the chances of your propane line failing are slim...but I wouldn't want to be standing outside of a burning house (or lying in the rubble of an exploded one) wishing I had made the short trip through the snow to turn off the tank. (Even though I bitch about it the whole way out there LOL)

~~Mary
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Old 2009-09-24, 6:24am
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here is pictures of my piped in propane line. Maybe it gives you ideas?

http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=92963
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Old 2009-09-24, 6:57am
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I'm with Mary on that. I never mess with either the oxy or propane pressures after I get started.

** Warning below is a do as I say not as I do advisory**
I will admit I am even lazier than that. Most of the time I don't even loosen the regulator screw when I turn things off. Do NOT do this. Always loosen the regulator screw after you have bled the lines. If is it set to a pressure when you open the tank again, it can damage the diaphragm in the regulator. I repeat always loosen the screw when you are done, just not all the way out.
** End Warning **
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Old 2009-09-24, 7:03am
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Another argument for just getting a (5 psi maybe) fixed pressure regulator and saving the bucks a adjustable regulator costs....

Dale
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Old 2009-09-24, 7:12am
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I’m sure this topic has been discussed ad nauseam, however, I’m new and really need the direction of artists who know what they are talking about...and perhaps I can learn from your missteps as well. To that end, if there’s somewhere else to discuss this, please direct me there. I’ve read several posts from Dale and others discussing different gases to use, some “sooty” propane stories....it's all a little overwhelming!

I’m trying to decide... where to put a “studio” . (I live in TX so the garage is about 120 degrees or more in the summer) Not sure how to work that. No little kids at my house anymore, just the occasional starving boy-child stopping in to do laundry on the weekend he ran out of clean boxers.... so I've got spare rooms upstairs.

HOW to set it up so it’s functional and safe is my main concern. (neither is the case now, as I’m at my kitchen table , which is tiled– windows open wide, fans trying to blow out MAPP gas, it’s just not working...)

I’m using a HH which I’d like to run on larger Propylene(sp?) tank, I think someone said it was hot and clean???? Right? Propane sometimes sooty and not as hot??? Or no??

Does anyone have that type of setup or do I just need to realize I’m going to have to buy a big-girl torch..... and "oxygen and something" tanks. Yikes.

Please advise! I LOVE to make beads but have to go to one of the bead places around here to use their torches (and vents). My little yellow tanks run out too quickly and I can’t seem to make my HH actually hot enough to encase very well. I love the Minor torches but that seems like a huge investment and an ordeal to set up. Plus, what if I’m not very good at this!? (my friends think I am but they haven’t seen the beads that YOU all post! )
Thanks for your help!
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Old 2009-09-24, 8:09am
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Dale M. Dale M. is offline
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A hothead presents special issues........ IF you stay with the #1 pound canisters its probable ok to locate studio in room of your choice (see any studio safety thread)....

IF you are going to use a BULK tank... Location will have to be on ground floor and where tank can remain OUTSIDE..... Tons written about it here and on other forums.......

If HH on bulk does not appeal and you can not live with advise other have given about long hoses and tanks outside, or dangers that HH on bulk may impose then a fuel/oxygen torch is for you...

There is no such thing as a "big girl" torch..... MEN use these torches too... so its a "fuel/oxygen" torch.......

Second floor studio also have special needs, you can pipe (metallic) low pressure propane (0-10 psi) up to second floor with no problem as long as you use good design practices and stay within gas piping codes..... Second floor also will have to have oxygen up to torch also... Best solution here is oxygen concentrator as you don't what to be lugging large tanks up and down the stairs...... Or keep tanks outside at ground lever and pipe oxygen into second floor studio, this needs to be a absolutely NO OIL in piping installation as there is spontaneous combustion issues (explosion) when combining oils and pure oxygen....

NO matter what you do, get out of kitchen area...... You will contaminate food preparation areas with tiny glass shards and combustion byproducts with from torch, these are health and safety issues.....I certainly would not want to eat anything that may have small pieces of glass in it........

Dale
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Old 2009-09-24, 8:18am
NMLinda NMLinda is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moth View Post
I'm missing why you need to be able to see your gauge. I've never adjusted it after it was set for working pressure.

I go out to the tank, turn it on, check the needle on the gauge. If it goes up to 8, I come in the house and work. I never even think about that regulator after the initial turning on of the propane.

Why are you guys adjusting your pressure often enough to worry about being able to see your gauge?

I'm asking because I might be missing something really important while I'm working and I'm curious as to what it is.

At 8-10# pressure, I adjust at the torch the level of propane 'flow' I want. What is the benefit of micro-managing the regulator?

~~Mary
I used to be lazy and just left the T-handle of my propane regulator set for my prefered pressure, and then turned the propane on/off at the tank itself. After a while (several years) the diaphragm eventually failed. Naturally, I didn't see Dale's posts advising against leaving it set all the time to prevent just that until after mine failed! I now back the T-handle all the way out when I'm done or refilling the tank and then re-set it each time I work. I also will sometimes swap between my minor or my phantom. When I work on the phantom, I find need to adjust the propane a bit vs the minor. For someone who's just starting out and may not be familiar with the best set point for their torch, it might be convenient to have the adjustable regulator inside so that they can adjust it with the torch on - if they had to run outside to adjust it, they might have the situation of needing to leave the flame unattended for a minute. Might be a hazard for someone with kids or pets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moth View Post
As far as digging through the snow to see it, I'd already had to have dug through the snow just to turn the tank on...so it isn't saving me a trip.


Are you guys leaving your outside tank and shut off valve ON all the time, and turning off only the inside valve? Because I think that is not wise. Your connections at any point of this set up could spring a leak at any time and unless your tank is off entirely you aren't safe.

Granted, the chances of your propane line failing are slim...but I wouldn't want to be standing outside of a burning house (or lying in the rubble of an exploded one) wishing I had made the short trip through the snow to turn off the tank. (Even though I bitch about it the whole way out there LOL)

~~Mary
You make some very important points. I completely agree that the propane should always be turned off at the tank! So yes, that good safety practice doesn't eliminate having to go outside for that. I also whole-heartedly agree about NOT relying on the shut-off valves to turn off the propane when done. For those not familiar, the purpose for these is really just in case there's an emergency and you need to shut the gas off quickly - at which point one should then get to the propane tank as quickly as possible to shut it off, too.

How to set up conveniently, especially for colder climates, comes up every so often, so I believe most of the folks here are really just trying to understand some of the recommendations posted here in LE and on the Art Glass Answers forum.
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Old 2009-09-24, 8:48am
NMLinda NMLinda is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roo Blaty View Post
I’m trying to decide... where to put a “studio” . (I live in TX so the garage is about 120 degrees or more in the summer) Not sure how to work that.
.... so I've got spare rooms upstairs.

HOW to set it up so it’s functional and safe is my main concern....

I’m using a HH which I’d like to run on larger Propylene(sp?) tank.....

Does anyone have that type of setup or do I just need to realize I’m going to have to buy a big-girl torch..... and "oxygen and something" tanks. Yikes.

....My little yellow tanks run out too quickly and I can’t seem to make my HH actually hot enough to encase very well. I love the Minor torches but that seems like a huge investment and an ordeal to set up. Plus, what if I’m not very good at this!? (my friends think I am but they haven’t seen the beads that YOU all post! )
Thanks for your help!
With most of the summer heat past, I would urge you to move out of the kitchen (I agree with Dale - NOT a safe place to torch!). I would strongly encourage you to stay with the 1 lb canisters, even though they run out fast, until you're certain you want to do this long term and are willing to make the appropriate investments, ie upgrading to an oxy/propane torch. Lampworking is not an inexpensive activity, as you'll come to find.

If you really want to upgrade to bulk propane for your HH as you think about what you want to do, the safest arrangement is to set up outside, say under an awning or open porch cover. You need to keep the propane tank outside, anyway, and well away from you as you work. The hoses most folks use with bulk propane to the HH have been known to fail at the fittings, and the HH runs at the natural tank pressure, which is way too high to safely have inside, whether house or garage. We nearly lost an LE member who was working on a HH with her tank in a basement... the fittings on her hose failed...lots of high pressure propane spewing out FAST... right at her torch.... Fortunately, she survived the event and had the courage to post her experience. I think her 'event' was somewhat explosive, too. Because situatins like this can and have happened, the safest recommendation is to work with a HH on bulk gas outside.

If you decide you love lampworking and want to stay with it, consider building a little studio/shed in your yard, if you have the space. You can insulate it against the heat and cold and build in all the safety elements you need. Keeping it at ground level avoids the logistics concerns Dale outlined for you for working upstairs.

Linda
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  #28  
Old 2009-09-24, 8:52am
NMLinda NMLinda is offline
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Sorry for the multiple posts - I forgot to recommend an excellent book for you to help you understand how to set up the basics of a studio and how to set up an oxy/propen torch:

James Kervin "More Thank You Ever Wanted to Know About Glass Beadmaking"

I would highly recommend you get that book now, even with your HH. It has some of the best safety info in any of the lampworking books I've seen, and will give you a bit of an orientation and context to better understand the wealth of information here on LE and other forums such as Art Glass Answers.

Linda
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  #29  
Old 2009-09-25, 3:57pm
Ravenesque Ravenesque is offline
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Ha well see Mary, I never used one so that's why I asked about seeing it, I thought you had to be able to see it.
(I'm on a HH converting to a Cricket)

Let me double check what I'm thinking.

So basically I just turn it on and adjust inside at the torch?

If I get a fixed I won't need gauge?

...Again thank you all so much!
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Old 2009-09-25, 4:06pm
NMLinda NMLinda is offline
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Ravenesque - If you decide to use a fixed regulator, one that's matched for the propane pressure recommended for the Cricket, you're correct, you don't need a guage. The fixed regulators don't have them, anyway. If you go this route, your turn-on sequence would be 1) go outside and turn on your propane tank 2) go inside, crack your propane knob, light the torch and turn on your oxy. This assumes that the safety valves on both ends of the black pipe that go through your wall are left on

Linda
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