Need advice for next level torch

SilverRiverJewelry · #1 2009-10-15, 1:17pm

I am very new and working on a hothead torch at the moment. I would like to start saving up for a better torch so that I can do the striking and also be able to eventually work with boro. I also want to be able to continue working with the soft glass. I will be using propane and oxygen in tanks to start until I can switch to an oxyconcentrator. (sp?) Any suggestions on which is the best way to go without spending TOO much money? After I save for this one I won't be able to upgrade again for awhile.

gubnavnania · #2 2009-10-15, 1:29pm

GTT cricket

I melt boro on cricket with oxycon faster than minor with oxy tank. I was surprised.

fannydotson · #3 2009-10-15, 1:35pm

Malcolm....Malcolm...Well, I am sure he will post soon enough. He is a great person to ask this question at. Malcolm at Artco.

SilverRiverJewelry · #4 2009-10-15, 1:54pm

Can I hook the cricket to an oxy tank also? Sorry I have no idea how these work other than than two hoses and some regulators lol! I am going to have to do some research.

gubnavnania · #5 2009-10-15, 2:29pm

Yes you can use oxy tank on cricket.

This is what it says on GTT website:

Quote:

The Cricket was designed to get the best performance possible out of an economical 5 LPM 5 psi oxygen concentrator. The Cricket is not limited to small concentrator use, it does extremely well on 10 LPM concentrators as well as using tanked oxygen. This means that it maximizes the output of smaller oxygen concentrators and is very efficient on tanked oxygen too! It can be run on 1/4 psi fuel gas and 3 psi oxygen!

So I guess, you can dial the regulator at least on 3psi.

SilverRiverJewelry · #6 2009-10-15, 3:56pm

Great thank you! I will start looking to see what the total package is going to cost me lol! Torch, oxy tank, regulators and hoses I believe are what I am going to need?

ArtcoInc · #7 2009-10-15, 4:36pm

(This question is a pet peeve of mine, so please bear with me … )

Since I don’t know you, and you don’t know me, would you ask me what car you should get, or what shoes to buy, or even what you should eat for dinner tonight? And, would any answer I give really have any validity? Or, would it just be a reflection of what *I* would get, completely ignoring your needs?
……………………………………………………………………………………………

Choosing a torch is like choosing a pair of shoes .... the important things are (in no specific order): function, comfort, and price.

* Function: What do you plan to do with the torch? Hard or soft glass? Rod or tubing? Beads, pendents, marbles, paperweights, sculpture, or pipes? Will you be using liquid oxygen, bottles, or an oxycon? Do you want a single stage torch, or a multi stage (independent inner/outer flame)?

Where is your studio? Do you live in a dorm, barracks, or RV, and need a ‘portable’ studio; one you can set up and tear down easily? Do you work in your dining room? Basement? Garage? How good is your ventilation? Your lighting?

How long have you been torching? What is your experience level? Are you just starting out, or are you moving up to a larger torch? Are you doing this as a hobby, or are you trying to make money at this? If this is a hobby, are you the type of person that tries a new hobby, and then moves on to a new hobby in 6 months? Or, do you tend to stick with things for the long haul?

*ALL* of this influences your torch selection.

* Comfort: How many torches have you actually worked on? What are *you* comfortable using? Most people tend to be most comfortable using the torch they learned on.

Every torch has its strengths, and its weaknesses. To make an informed choice, you should learn these, so you can select a torch that has its strengths in the areas where you work.

Many people love GTT torches, and won't use anything else. Similarly, there are people who will only drive BMWs. Don't get me wrong; GTT makes great torches. Just remember, there are other torches out there … all with different strengths (and weaknesses). You may find that, for what you do and the way you work, you might better like a Carlisle, or Herbert Arnold, or National, or ....

Every new torch comes with a learning curve. Don’t dismiss a torch just because you haven’t learned how to use it correctly. The only way for you to know if you are comfortable with a torch is to actually work on one. It doesn't matter what torch *I* am comfortable using, what matters is what torch *you* are comfortable using.

* Price (& Availability): Someone might suggest something like a GTT Delta Mag as being the best torch in the world, but if you don't have $4000 to spend on a torch, what difference does it make? If we don't know your budget, suggesting torches out of your budget doesn't help, does it?

If you are upgrading from a Hot Head, in addition to the new torch, you will also have to get additional items such as regulator(s), hose(s), an oxygen source (either bottles or an oxycon), etc. Keep this in mind when you set your budget.

Consider the operating expenses. Some torches are more efficient with their use of both gas and oxygen. Like buying a car, it may be better in the long run to spend a little more up front for a more efficient torch, and safe on the cost of gas and oxygen down the road.

If you are already using an oxycon, suggesting a torch too large for your existing oxycon doesn’t help either (unless you have also budgeted for one or more new oxycons

)

Some torches keep their resale value better than others. You may be upgrading now from a Hot Head (or a Minor, or …), but you may upgrade again in the future. This need not be the last torch you ever buy.

Don't be afraid of getting a used torch. Sometimes you can get a good deal on a used torch, getting you much more torch for your money. Also, some torch models are, shall we say, in limited availability, or perhaps no longer in production. You may not be able to easily find a new torch in the model you want. A used torch now may be better than a new torch a year from now (especially if the used one retains its resale value).

Seriously, just as I can’t tell you what shoes are best for you, I really can’t tell you what torch is best. I can offer suggestions, but you really need to "try them on" yourself, and see what feels right.

Malcolm

fannydotson · #8 2009-10-15, 4:37pm

That's what I was talkin' about...he he he. Good advice!

SilverRiverJewelry · #9 2009-10-15, 7:55pm

Well that makes sense lol! It will be six months or more before I will be even close to buying a new torch. Lets see if I can answer all of the above questions. My aim in asking this questions was to have a starting point from which to start my research.

Function : soft glass and the 96 coe also, would like to be able to strike colors, which I understand can be difficult to do on a hot head. Rods, beads, pendants, marble and maybe small animals (bead size). An oxygen tank to start but would like to be able to use an oxycon in the future. I don't know the difference between a single stage and a dual stage torch so that will be something I need to look up.

My studio is in the basement and my ventilation and lighting are pretty good. (vent hood w/fan to outside). Currently I disconnect all of my hoses and have everything outside when I am not working.

Just starting out, been doing this for about 2 months but won't be able to upgrade until at least the spring so it will be closer to 9 months. I torch for 3 or 4 hours 3 to 5 days a week. I'd like to make money at this and no I don't tend to jump around a whole lot, although I do metal smithing and beadweaving also.

The only torch I have ever used is hot head. I will have to find some lampworkers in my area I guess and see if they will let me try out a couple different ones.

I definitely don't have $4000 to spend on a torch. I am on a very tight budget and will need to save for the one I eventually choose. I will have to make a choice and then wait til I save enough to buy it. Less than $500 would be very good for the whole setup. I already have a propane tank.

A used torch sounds like it may be a good option to explore.

I really just wanted opinions and a place to start. When I decided I wanted to try the Devardi glass, I read the everything I could find, checked out their videos and site and decided to give it a try myself. I happen to love that glass, but I bought it knowing as much about the good and the bad as I could. Opinions are valuable and provide a starting point and that is what I am after.

ArtcoInc · #10 2009-10-15, 11:54pm

Let's start with your budget of $500. You say you have the propane tank, and you will be using bottled oxygen (we won't include that in the budget at this point). You're going to need a set of regulators: one for the propane and one for the oxygen. One regulator is about $75-100. There are cheap ones out there, but this is one place I prefer not to cut corners. A set of hoses is another $30 or so, and the flashback arrestors (while not absolutely necessary, these are a very good idea) are another $30-60. If you can get any of these either used, or as a set from a vendor, you may be able to save a few dollars. As it is, this will leave you about $200-300 for your torch.

Torches in this price range include (in no particular order):

Carlisle Mini CC
GTT Bobcat
GTT Cricket
Knight Little Dragon 7
National 8M
Nortel Mega Minor
Nortel Minor Burner
Wale Firebird

On bottled oxygen, all of these torches will work 104, 96, 90, and even small boro. Some are more fuel and oxygen efficient that others ... this will be important when you later switch to an oxycon.

Each model torch has its strengths, and its weaknesses. I still strongly encourage you to try as many torches as you can. If you are not in a hurry, at the ISGB Gathering, they hold what's known as "open torch" nights. Different vendors set up tables with their torches, and people can try them for free (with your conference ticket, that is). The next Gathering is in Rochester, NY in July, 2010.

HTH
Malcolm

metalbone · #11 2009-10-16, 5:54am

if you don't have access to all kinds of torches and only have to get one, given what you said you wanted to do, get a cricket. Simple as that.

SilverRiverJewelry · #12 2009-10-16, 6:42am

Okay thank you! The winter is my dh's slow season and things are usually tight with Christmas and winter gas bills lol! NY is drivable from Ohio easily so I could make that gathering in July. I am also trying to hook up with some of the lampworkers in my area and I know that the bead shop I took my first class at has a couple minors I could probably try out. Thanks everyone!

Rose · #13 2009-10-17, 5:14am

I'll chime in and say a Cricket is the way to go. Not only is it very efficient with fuel and oxygen use, that sucker is HOT! I mostly make boro beads.

LyndaJ · #14 2009-10-17, 5:42am

Sonja, what part of Ohio are you in? I have a mini cc and a Cheetah that you could try out. I'm in the northern Cincinnati area.

SilverRiverJewelry · #15 2009-10-17, 6:22am

Linda thank you! Cincinnati is about 6 or 7 hours away lol! I am going to try and Mary (glass addict) on Sunday she has a couple that she is willing to let me try. Thank you so much for everyone's kind offers! I love this community lol!

Cosmo · #16 2009-10-17, 8:26am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArtcoInc

Let's start with your budget of $500. You say you have the propane tank, and you will be using bottled oxygen (we won't include that in the budget at this point). You're going to need a set of regulators: one for the propane and one for the oxygen. One regulator is about $75-100. There are cheap ones out there, but this is one place I prefer not to cut corners. A set of hoses is another $30 or so, and the flashback arrestors (while not absolutely necessary, these are a very good idea) are another $30-60. If you can get any of these either used, or as a set from a vendor, you may be able to save a few dollars. As it is, this will leave you about $200-300 for your torch.

Torches in this price range include (in no particular order):

Carlisle Mini CC
GTT Bobcat
GTT Cricket
Knight Little Dragon 7
National 8M
Nortel Mega Minor
Nortel Minor Burner
Wale Firebird

On bottled oxygen, all of these torches will work 104, 96, 90, and even small boro. Some are more fuel and oxygen efficient that others ... this will be important when you later switch to an oxycon.

Each model torch has its strengths, and its weaknesses. I still strongly encourage you to try as many torches as you can. If you are not in a hurry, at the ISGB Gathering, they hold what's known as "open torch" nights. Different vendors set up tables with their torches, and people can try them for free (with your conference ticket, that is). The next Gathering is in Rochester, NY in July, 2010.

HTH
Malcolm

They will work more than small borosilicate. On a Minor with tanked oxygen I can make 1.25" marbles, 6" vessels, and most any size pendant.

Lenda · #17 2009-10-18, 2:22pm

If you're able to stay on tanked oxy, Malcolm forgot the GTT Lynx. That's what I have and it does everything I need it to and more I've not asked of it yet. I think they're $435 but if the Cheetah would've been around I probably would have gotten that at $550 because of the wider flame and more heat.

If you're getting a concentrator though, it does rule out torches so decide what you're gonna do that way and it'll narrow your choices down a bit.

ArtcoInc · #18 2009-10-18, 10:52pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lenda

If you're able to stay on tanked oxy, Malcolm forgot the GTT Lynx. That's what I have and it does everything I need it to and more I've not asked of it yet. I think they're $435 but if the Cheetah would've been around I probably would have gotten that at $550 because of the wider flame and more heat.

Nope, didn't forget it. It is out of the budget. In the above example, the $500 has to pay for the regulators, hoses, etc. *as well as* the torch.

Malcolm

SilverRiverJewelry · #19 2009-10-19, 10:49am

Okay thanks everyone! The girl I took my first class from was kind enough to let me try out three different torches yesterday and I have narrowed it down to probably the cricket or the minor. Cricket being my first choice I think simply because its made to run efficiently on an oxycon. Which is the eventual goal.

ArtcoInc · #20 2009-10-19, 11:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverRiverJewelry

Okay thanks everyone! The girl I took my first class from was kind enough to let me try out three different torches yesterday and I have narrowed it down to probably the cricket or the minor. Cricket being my first choice I think simply because its made to run efficiently on an oxycon. Which is the eventual goal.

Now, you are making a choice based off of your own experience with these three different torches. Isn't that better than blindly excepting a recommendation from someone you don't know?

Malcolm