Will studio ever be READY? Now, problems with Lucio torch "breathing",& wavering.Help

[TJ]

Good grief, just when I think my studio is DONE!

Bolted Lucio torch to table. Problem #1: Flame "breathes" with the OxyCon, an M-15. Gets wider, then skinner, wider, skinnier, by about a cm. Carlisle told me that an M-15 (8LPM) would be sufficient. I was able to find one post suggesting that this behavior is due to INsufficient oxygen - that it is burning off faster than it can be kept consistent in the torch exit. Can anyone confirm this, offer another reason or - most importantly! - postulate a solution?

Problem #2: Flame wavers around. It moves somewhat even without the 954 CFM turned on, but is not good at all when on. If I put an inch of rod in the flame, I end up with the flame moving so much that, without moving my hand, the rod is right out of the flame slightly or in it a whole extra inch! That is NOT sufficient control to work!

Is it my ventilation hood? Here are photos. Could the baffles I added be too "tunnel-y, funnel-y" and be creating too much of a vortex effect? (The baffles are the aluminum flashing added to the "washbasin".) If so, would making the baffles at a wider, more open angle be likely to create less of a wind? Or should I take them off altogether?

Or am I way off on that... is it the positioning of the makeup duct end? (Note that I blocked off the back of the desk, so most air is going back up towards the fan.)

Or god forbid... could it be BOTH?

This is so frustrating... I thought I could start torching. Now, what do I do to fix this...?

Tami

[caliente]

I'm not sure I have a solution for you but I can share my Lucio experience. I'm not seeing any of these effects. I also use an M15 and it is plenty. I use natural gas. The good news is your Oxycon is sufficient based on my experience, anyway.

Run the torch with the ventilation off and see of you have the same issue.

Good luck!

[Lorraine Chandler]

It was my hood and fan combo when I had the same thing happen. I had to keep tweeking everything until it worked. I ended up with a full Barley Box style hood 2X4 feet with a 6" plexiglass piece across the front at the top. That piece really stopped the dancing flame.


If I stand to torch and lean in too far my forehead hits the Plexiglas.

I run my blower at 1100, 1600 and 2100 CFMS and no dancing flame.

Good luck tweeking as it does take some effort and time.

[AmorphousDesigns]

Trey Cornett put out instructions for a DIY holding tank, supposed to even out the "breathing"

http://www.lampworketc.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=52423

[SharonP]

I linked two EX-15's together for my Starfire and have never had a breathing issue. The two 15's did breathe with my Phantom... just fyi.

[TJ]

Hmmm. Thanks for the input... sounds like no one definable thing to correct.

Caliente, My torch is on gas too. Hubby says we are 1000 feet higher elevation than you, would that make a difference?
Also, is your gas .25 pressure! like mine?

Amorphous, I saw that holding tank idea as well. But my interpretation of that is that it merely "saves up" so extra oxygen if you are running a smaller torch that you sometimes run full blast but run mostly very low. When you then turn it up, it uses that reserve. But my torch is more full blast/ high most of the time, not doing beads. I do not know if I understand that correctly, but thats what I THINk, anyways.

Sharon, did you ever find out why one torch breathed and the other did not?

Lorraine, I am going to try removing my baffles and see if that makes a difference in the flame blowing around

Read somewhere that the breathing flame may also be a result of not enough makeup air coming in. Will try opening the window just to check but most of the yr it is too cold outside for that to be a solution, so if that is it I will have to enlarge the makeup air duct (as I know it should have been anyways).

Anyone else have an idea?

[Maui Greenstone]

Look into a invacare homefill system and your all your oxy worries will be a thing of the past

[Raimond]

Turn on everything on the bench, torch, vent, make up air. Then play with any other appliances that are on NG. See if you get any change.

[caliente]

Originally Posted by TJ

Hmmm. Thanks for the input... sounds like no one definable thing to correct.

Caliente, My torch is on gas too. Hubby says we are 1000 feet higher elevation than you, would that make a difference?
Also, is your gas .25 pressure! like mine?

I wouldn't think your elevation should make a difference as your gas should still be delivered at a set pressure. I looked into what mine was when I put in the line but now I can't seem to find that info. .25 sounds familiar, though.

[houptdavid]

Originally Posted by TJ

But my torch is more full blast/ high most of the time,

Turn it down some, if you follow the practice of turning your oxy on full bore and adjusting your fuel to the oxygen you will get "breathing". I got it on a minor with one 5lpm when I adjusted the flame in that manner, when I turned it down a bit it stopped

[TJ]

Thanks, guys.

Greenstone: oxycon systems can only be obtained by medical prescription in Canada - other than a handful of reconditioned ones by lampworking retail studios and those shipped from the U.S., so I do not think anything refillable would be available here.

Raimond: the only other things on the gas line are the Hot water tank and furnace, so can't really change those.

Caliente: I was wondering about the elevation because I read in a post somewhere that oxycons work best at sea level. I cannot say how or whether that relates to my issues or not, since I have a very elemental understanding of this torch process to begin with though!

David: I do turn on gas first, then add in the oxygen. But I am trying to get the torch roaring, long and strong flame.. trying to replicate the Lucio torch that I used in his studio in Murano... but it feels less powerful somehow. Fluffier. weaker. Perhaps he has higher gas pressure there, or a level of oxygen feeding I could never match (or both). Maybe it was foolish of me to even think I could have a torch setup the same, given the big difference in country and finance!

But I will try moderating the flame overall. I have a feeling that will help.

I checked out a video on YouTube that tested a torch with the same M-15 Concentrator and 8 LPM. It was a different torch, but the narrator mentioned the fluctuating flame during the video. So now I am thinking that perhaps the small amount of "breathing" I see is not a big deal, is a little normal. It is possible that I just never noticed it when I was in Murano. I never saw that behavior on the rented MegaMinor torch, but that flame is so small I might not have noticed.

I do feel I have to take down all my baffles on the hood though. The flame is just blowing around too much, period, and that is the only adjustment I can make to affect that, I believe.

[cheng076]

I see a couple things that may be effecting your system.

The idea of ventilation is not just to collect the flame gasses and exhaust them out of your immediate area but it is to draw an amount of clean air around your head so you have fresh air to breath.

What I see from your photos is that the 'hood' is shaded by the baffel that hangs down and is positioned in front of the makeup air stream such that the curtian of makeup air that should come up from below the bench is greatly agitated by the stream of air from the 6" duct shooting into it as it tries to rise up. This agitated air is then drawn toward the hood in a manner that it has to flow around the hood's back baffel causing even more agitation and possibly your dancing flame.

Try moving the 6" duct to the side of the bench and bending it sideways so the MU air flows into the area between the bench and wall horizontally from the side. Cut 6" off the bottom of the curtian under the bench so some air flows under the bench toward your body as you sit at the torch. It doesn't take much. Then remove the baffel that is attached to the back side of the hood opening.

What you have done, based on your pics, is to introduce a very agitated MU air stream that is also restricted and forced to distort even more to enter the hood pickup area. The configuration leaves no way for the air flow to entrain room air or even MU air from a door or window and exhaust it outside.

Hope this helps, PJH

[TJ]

Thanks, PJ. Agitation is precisely the way I would describe it also. I can picture what you are saying if I think of it as water currents competing.

I was trying to follow the instruction that I think was from Dale somewhere, about putting in a back baffle to prevent gasses from pooling behind the torch or down behind the table. Correct me if I am wrong here: I was out to lunch doing that since my makeup air is back there. That would only be correct if my makeup air was coming mostly from the oppsite side of the room, right?

I will try what you say! I'll let you know the results.

Tami

[caliente]

Oh....elevation from the standpoint of the Oxycon, not the NG. Interesting. I did not know they were supposed to work better at sea level.

The home fill system that someone suggested above is for oxygen tanks.

My gas is nowhere near full blast when I run. I turn it on so the flame is about 6 inches with no oxy then adjust the oxy from there. That gives me a similar flame to what I was running in Lucio's studio with this torch. When running, the candles are 1 cm at most for neutral.

[TJ]

PJ: I removed the back flashing baffle. Still the same turbulance in the flame. Tested pointing the makeup air chute various directions. Turbulance definitely increased when pointed towards the hood, and decreased when pointed not down behind the desk but right off to the side. That is not great though, since the whole purpose of the makeup air being back there was to have it heat up by the torch. I really wanted it to go into the back of the torch area to warm up. But I guess I will simply have to give up using the torch through a good portion of winter in the name of having a steady flame - or give up my natural light and replace the makeup air with 12" instead of 6" ducting. I realize that the reduction in size causes it to blow, not waft air in, and that is my fault.

Further with the baffles: still a distinct pull to the left of vortex action, so I removed the ENTIRE flashing baffle I had made. Finally, finally... the flame is fairly steady. Tested with incense again. Even if I hold the incense up next to my face, the smoke gets pulled into the hood. I guess the baffles were not needed after all. I just assumed from all I read on ventilation that one hood up higher would not be sufficient, but it appears to be!

Still need to cut out a few inches from the bottom of the "curtain" wood, as you suggested. That should improve the overall air flow in the room in terms of freshness to my head area, and further assist in lowering turbulence at the back of the desk, correct?



Caliente,

I was aiming to run the torch close to the width of the exit barrel. I had the overall flame at about 7 inches. Reducing it to 6 inches DOES seem to work better. Thank you. I also noticed that running the oxycon longer than 10 mins, it seems to even out its breathing. (Or, it could have been the hood was sucking too much oxygen out with the baffles installed.) I have much to learn in the technical aspect of flameworking.

[caliente]

Ah...yes, that's a good point. I always start my oxycon when I start my kiln up- probably a half hour before torching. That may be excessive. The times when I've forgotten and turn it on right before torching, it seems to settle in pretty quickly.