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Safety -- Make sure you are safe!

View Poll Results: Do you have propane tank(s) in your house?
Yes, but only a maximum of 2 one-pound tanks 76 10.60%
Yes, I keep my BBQ tank right next to me in the studio. 212 29.57%
No, it always stays outside. I run the lines through a door/window. 247 34.45%
No, it always stays outside. I have a plumbed line through the wall. 182 25.38%
Voters: 717. You may not vote on this poll

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  #451  
Old 2011-07-15, 7:05am
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Dale M. Dale M. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kilmer View Post
Please help!!!



Leanne
Actually need a little more than a general plea.... What do you need help with....

Here is a couple of pic's of how people have tapped into NG supply...





Since this is "construction" work you may need a building permit to do the work and it may have to be "inspected" when done...

Might be good idea to move questions out of general "No Propane in the House" thread and into a message thread asking specific question you may have....

Dale
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Last edited by Dale M.; 2011-07-15 at 7:09am.
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  #452  
Old 2011-07-25, 11:53am
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I don't give a shit what the paranoid safety nazi' say I keep my propane within quick reach of my work space. Last thing I would ever want is a flame thrower of a hose spitting flames everywhere while I run the 50 plus feet to tirn it off. And for all you that say put the flames out then turn it off. Well I sure as shit wouldn't fill my shop with propane from a ruptured hose. As far as the propane venting never in my life have I ever had a propane tank vent but then again I burn through a standard bbq tank in a day and a half. So it never gets a chance. Bash me all you want the local FD agreed with me during their inspection.
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  #453  
Old 2011-07-25, 1:32pm
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Originally Posted by BAGGEDCHEVYS View Post
I don't give a shit what the paranoid safety nazi' say I keep my propane within quick reach of my work space. Last thing I would ever want is a flame thrower of a hose spitting flames everywhere while I run the 50 plus feet to tirn it off. And for all you that say put the flames out then turn it off. Well I sure as shit wouldn't fill my shop with propane from a ruptured hose. As far as the propane venting never in my life have I ever had a propane tank vent but then again I burn through a standard bbq tank in a day and a half. So it never gets a chance. Bash me all you want the local FD agreed with me during their inspection.
Safety and good shop practices are often not about the 99.9% of the time you are working and everything is under control. It is often about the .1% of the time when there is a full moon and the stars align and something unforeseen happens that we think wouldn't happen ever. If you work long enough I prefer to believe that these things will eventually happen. At that point I would rather have the venting tank outside in the open air where the Propane might dissapate instead of under my chair in the shop where it would blow my ass up. Not looking for a discussion on this just stating my point of view.
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  #454  
Old 2011-07-25, 2:21pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAGGEDCHEVYS View Post
I don't give a shit what the paranoid safety nazi' say I keep my propane within quick reach of my work space. Last thing I would ever want is a flame thrower of a hose spitting flames everywhere while I run the 50 plus feet to tirn it off. And for all you that say put the flames out then turn it off. Well I sure as shit wouldn't fill my shop with propane from a ruptured hose. As far as the propane venting never in my life have I ever had a propane tank vent but then again I burn through a standard bbq tank in a day and a half. So it never gets a chance. Bash me all you want the local FD agreed with me during their inspection.
Ignorance in curable ...
Stupidity is terminal.....

Just because local FD is not aware of code does not make you or them immune....

Dale
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  #455  
Old 2011-07-25, 2:29pm
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Originally Posted by LarryC View Post
Safety and good shop practices are often not about the 99.9% of the time you are working and everything is under control. It is often about the .1% of the time when there is a full moon and the stars align and something unforeseen happens that we think wouldn't happen ever. If you work long enough I prefer to believe that these things will eventually happen. At that point I would rather have the venting tank outside in the open air where the Propane might dissapate instead of under my chair in the shop where it would blow my ass up. Not looking for a discussion on this just stating my point of view.
And my point of view is I would rather have my tank close by to shut off incase of a more realistic problem such as a burst hose a hose that somehow comes loose a torch leaking issue hose burned through flash back issue and so on those are much more realistic issues that WILL happen over time compared to the tank possibly venting and that .1%

Look at the Lyssa ladys thread about her hose coming off and having to send her hubby to turn it off that seems like a bigger liability than a tank possibly someday venting

I do agree on practicing safe shop ethics but i don't agree that having your propane tank far away for the possibility of a freak venting while in use.... have to weigh out the good the bad and the freak of nature. Nothing you will do will ever make this 100% safe
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  #456  
Old 2011-07-25, 2:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale M. View Post
Ignorance in curable ...
Stupidity is terminal.....

Just because local FD is not aware of code does not make you or them immune....

Dal
Dale the day my shop blows up from a venting bbq tank I will offer up a public statment till then IMO there are more realistic things to go wrong where being able to shut your gas off quickly will outweigh the possibility of venting..
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  #457  
Old 2011-07-25, 3:44pm
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Originally Posted by BAGGEDCHEVYS View Post
Look at the Lyssa ladys thread about her hose coming off and having to send her hubby to turn it off that seems like a bigger liability than a tank possibly someday venting
This is not a good example to use. Lots wrong in her situation that lead to the accident. I dont think we will ever see eye to eye on this and that is OK.
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  #458  
Old 2011-07-25, 4:26pm
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This is not a good example to use. Lots wrong in her situation that lead to the accident. I dont think we will ever see eye to eye on this and that is OK.
Good example or not it happened and is a prime example to my argument. There is a greater event chance in busted hoses leaking valves/commenctions burned through hoses and so on than the freak propane tank venting. That being said if her tank was within range to shut off. Say her husband wasn't there. What would the option be? Put the fire out and run outside as the hose continues to spew raw gas or leave it burning and run to turn the gas off and risk buring the whole joint down?

I use 4/5 hand torches on my lathe and they are to me considered a consubable as they are constantly being move manipulated burned and exposed to extreme heat from time to time. I have had hoses split pop and so on and if my tank hadn't been close by to shut off I would have filled my shop with massive ammounts of propane.
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  #459  
Old 2011-07-25, 10:16pm
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IMO, time is your enemy. Wait long enough and the chances of something unexpected going wrong approach 100%. Given that, why not have a local shut-off valve (I could make a case for two) and the tank & reg outside?
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  #460  
Old 2011-07-26, 1:24am
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Or even an electrically operated shut off valve just in case.

An additional issue is that if something does go wrong how will the insurance company treat the loss claim if they become aware of or find an installation that is in violation of local building code.
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  #461  
Old 2011-07-26, 12:13pm
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Or even an electrically operated shut off valve just in case.

An additional issue is that if something does go wrong how will the insurance company treat the loss claim if they become aware of or find an installation that is in violation of local building code.
Solinoid valves fail over time and are not 100% reliable or a good failsafe. Out in the elements the coils will corode. Have you checked with your home owners ins policy about using open fire in your garage? Chances are they would probably laugh at you and cancle you......
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  #462  
Old 2011-08-05, 5:42am
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Local manual shutoff valve inside the studio, second outside with the tank and regulator, iron pipe in between. There is nothing safe about having the tank inside next to you. I agree with Conrad - time and statistics are not on your side. It only takes one random event to spoil your whole afternoon. MHO.

Robert
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  #463  
Old 2011-08-05, 3:20pm
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OK - (from a newbie) I assume this doesn't include the small yellow MAPP tanks that attach to a hothead? So if I upgrade to a small propane tank to use with my hothead - that needs to be outside with 20' hose to the hothead? I'm just in the very beginning planning stages and I suppose I could read all 16 pages. I'll probably search for a beginning hothead torching page....
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  #464  
Old 2011-08-05, 3:26pm
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Originally Posted by jaybee766 View Post
OK - (from a newbie) I assume this doesn't include the small yellow MAPP tanks that attach to a hothead? So if I upgrade to a small propane tank to use with my hothead - that needs to be outside with 20' hose to the hothead? I'm just in the very beginning planning stages and I suppose I could read all 16 pages. I'll probably search for a beginning hothead torching page....
If you are looking to use a bulk propane tank with a hot head you should definitely search for that here and do some research first before making that decision. So much has been written on that issue that you will not find much that hasn't already been answered many times over in the archives.
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  #465  
Old 2011-08-05, 4:03pm
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Thanks Larry! I'm really happy with starting with my MAPP tank-ettes. Haven't ever fired them up outside of the studio where I took my first class.....
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  #466  
Old 2011-08-05, 5:33pm
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Most USA city codes allow for the use of a one pound tank inside a residence. Not so with a 20 pound grill tank.
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  #467  
Old 2011-08-05, 9:15pm
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Thanks Larry! I'm really happy with starting with my MAPP tank-ettes. Haven't ever fired them up outside of the studio where I took my first class.....
Have fun and be safe! I love torching!
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  #468  
Old 2011-08-08, 8:59am
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Originally Posted by RSimmons View Post
Local manual shutoff valve inside the studio, second outside with the tank and regulator, iron pipe in between. There is nothing safe about having the tank inside next to you. I agree with Conrad - time and statistics are not on your side. It only takes one random event to spoil your whole afternoon. MHO.

Robert
This exactly what I was thinking....could be because it is how my shop is set up.
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  #469  
Old 2011-08-22, 8:30am
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For those of us that can't get propane/Natural gas plumbed into our home, what is the safest way to get the propane into our home? I have a 15' hose and was planning on running it through a window. There is absolutely no way I can get it plumbed in. I rent so, whatever I do has to be easily removed.

Thanks!

--Monica
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  #470  
Old 2011-08-30, 7:52am
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Originally Posted by BrownGirl View Post
For those of us that can't get propane/Natural gas plumbed into our home, what is the safest way to get the propane into our home? I have a 15' hose and was planning on running it through a window. There is absolutely no way I can get it plumbed in. I rent so, whatever I do has to be easily removed.

Thanks!

--Monica
IF you can not get it plumbed in, having long hose is probable the best solution for the problem, But still is not really legal by building code.... Be sure you disconnect hose after each and every use so tank remains outside. IF you are bringing it in through doorway, put a wood block or use a door stop so hose does not get damaged or pinched by door if it swings shut. Open door can also be your source for makeup air for your ventilation.

Be careful, be safe.

Dale
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  #471  
Old 2011-08-30, 8:57am
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I do like Dale described. I cant breach any outer walls to plumb it in. I run a hose in under my garage door that I leave cracked open and just unhook and remove it when I am done.
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  #472  
Old 2011-08-30, 10:10am
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I do like Dale described. I cant breach any outer walls to plumb it in. I run a hose in under my garage door that I leave cracked open and just unhook and remove it when I am done.
I have a 15 ft. hose hooked to my new torch. I plan on running it out the window while I am torching and disconnecting when I am finished and carrying it back to the grill area to store it there. I have plenty of hose to go out the window and down to the ground where the tank will be situated.

Thank you for all of the excellent advice and support! I am officially SAFE(r) than I was when I joined LE. I have a fume hood built that has passed the incense test. I will also no longer be working with fuel in my home. I feel like I can breathe much more easily now.

--Monica
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  #473  
Old 2011-08-30, 10:27am
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We all had to come up the learning curve at some point.
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  #474  
Old 2011-09-04, 1:14pm
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I sure hope the percentage that keeps their tanks right next to them has lowered from the 28% that the poll says on page one. That's the point here, to get people to torch safe.

Here's an explosion story that happened recently. http://www.fox17online.com/news/fox1...,3087076.story

Yes, not from a #20 torch tank and they haven't said definitely from LP yet either..but sure seems like it. Glad no-one died, more often you do when your house blows up around you.
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  #475  
Old 2011-09-06, 9:36pm
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I am all for safety, but I wont do something simply because it is illegal not to. They are not always the same thing especially when considering practical use. I myself used to have a tank stored in the garage sized shop me and 2 others worked out of. Eventually when we moved to a farm our shop was transferred into a rather open barn with no doors, and the tanks sitting next to the large open "door" big enough for a small/medium tractor and wall (plywood) separating the work space from the tanks. Without knowing it this was obviously safer, though in the garage shop the tanks were also blocked by a similar wall, the leak issue never really occured lucky enough....key word lucky. Well thats not entirely true...

This is funny because before I even saw this thread I was telling my current roommate about a time coming home from a shell gas station that filled a tank of ours. Well long story short it started leaking on the way back from the gas station (I used a shopping cart to move the two tanks usually as they were too heavy for me to move on my own multiple city blocks. It is possible the tank was old, or it might have been one of those times where the high school girl or random gas attendant had no real clue as to how to fill a tank (this has happened many times to me at various places and is a helluva lot more frightening and dangerous as far as I can tell than the chance leak, though as usual I am probably wrong) but the fitting got super super cold and began to leak even worse and the trip back to the shop went underway.

I kept the tank outside when I finally got back to the shop and went to work, a bit later a fire truck came to take away the leaking tank thankfully. Now thinking back, this leak could have easily occurred after I got back to the shop, it could have happened when hooked up to the torch or if I used our other tank it could have been happening when I was working, listening to music on headphones or loud speakers with a national 8m and the top torch which creates quite the hiss noise (In other words I might not have known it was leaking at all). This is a frightening idea to me. Of course it is possible I may have smelled the leaking gas before it became an issue, but one can never tell.

I currently have a 8x10 shed almost done being built in the back yard. I could care less if it is legal for me to keep a tank in the shed or not. The risk is the same imo, even though it is far from air tight, etc. I was originally planning on keeping it in there until I managed to at least get through 10 pages of this thread. Lots of good info and points from both sides in my opinion. My main concern is not wanting to alert anyone around me to my glass blowing because there are lots of tweaker/junkie types who won't heasitate to rob me blind if they know I have a glass shop set up. I can put the bin behind the shed and hope it is safe from view. I still plan to have the oxy tank inside because it would be more of a bitch to find a container to shield it from shady eyes.

If I am feeling adventurous I may just decide to get some scrap wood and build a box for both of them, but as is I think I am ok with the tank going in the shed unless lifting the foot or so off the ground to the sheds floor becomes more demanding than building a box. I guess what I am saying is at first I came into this thread thinking that I wouldn't change my mind, and part of that came from people using the legal aspect as a reason to do this.

I suppose most of you may not be in the same moral boat as I am, but once the legal reasons are mentioned once, twice, three times... I think it just hurts your ability to convey the message of safety and why point A is dangerous and point B is much safer. That doesn't speak to everyone, especially the people who need to hear the practical reasons for safety.

People want to know what makes it dangerous, how those dangers are to be avoided, and in many many many cases I have read in this thread alone, how one might minimize the danger if they are not willing to go the full distance.

If it was just a legal issue I personally couldnt care less as I don't plan to ever invite firemen or any official into my home or on my property.

I was more worried about having an oxy tank outside and how to cover it. After reading and seeing that people seem to only really be concerned about the propane, it seems simple enough to have a rubbermaid bin or what have you to throw the tank in and run some hose through a small drilled hole. Not legal, but better than having it stored inside I imagine?

This is perhaps where my legal vs safety thing comes in. It might not be legal to have a hose ran this way into my shed, even though I always turn off my propane at the tank after using it. My main concern in this is the effect the weather would have on the hose after so many days of being exposed to the coming rain and snow/ice. Maybe a quick disconnect is in order, I dunno yet. I will put my tank outside and in a bin to keep it and the regulator from the rain and snow/ice. I might even be able to build a small wooden box with a cover to the hole so as to negate as much issue with the lines and weather as possible. But I won't put warning propane stickers on the bin... That seems excessive.

I guess my main problem with this thread is the lack of harm reduction philosophy. I think after reading this thread most people get that there are dangers involved in keeping a tank of propane in their home or garage. When you tell them if the garage is not connected to the house then it is ok because it is legal, or when you tell them that the same potentially unsafe or dangerous practices are ok in industrial or commercial settings because of legal zoning, that seems silly at best. Yes some and hopefully most of these places have the right venting and so on, but using a legal zoning excuse is poor and wont convince anyone of anything, at least when they are of like minded to myself.

Also instead of rolling your eyes or sighing in frustration at people when they don't bite, perhaps you could deal with them on their level of expectations and instead of telling them its all or nothing, at least help the folk negate as many potential issues as possible. Why just tell them "nope its unsafe and there is no option other than to quit blowing glass or move", instead of telling them the many steps they can take every time they use a tank or turn on a torch to ensure than even though what they are doing is unsafe and can put them or loved ones and strangers at risk, there are SOME steps they can take in their situation to at least minimize the chances of something bad happening.

One thing comes to mind for people who are in small apartments in basements or on second stories and up is to put a detector right next to the place they store the tanks, ensure it is loud enough for them to hear it in any room of their dwelling should a leak occur. They can then at least deal with the situation of a slow leaking tank and negate the possibility of killing everyone with CO2 and NOX. Now perhaps the alarms only work at the point of danger. I would then say those alarms are worthless. If they work as I would imagine they should, if they were next to the tank and it started to leak to the point of getting nasty it should go off, they can hear it and take care of the situation. Yes it is already a bad one, but why abandon these people?

When I was on a harm reduction board for substance users, it was our policy not to encourage or discourage drug use, but to fully inform people of the dangers from a neutral standpoint. Should they still decide to use after being armed with this information/informed of the dangers they could discuss and hear of ways to use these dangerous substances with the least amount of risk. If everything else in my post is idiotic (which is possible, im not perfect), I think this last point needs to be considered. No reason to throw people to the wolves should they decide against better judgement. The least we can do as a community is try to make a bad decision have as little potential impact as possible! On the artist themselves or the people around them

Last edited by caogomi; 2011-09-07 at 12:23am.
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  #476  
Old 2011-09-06, 10:54pm
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So what if you live in an apartment upstairs? We have gas grills allowed in the building.
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Old 2011-09-06, 11:48pm
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kinda goes back to whats allowed and whats legal and whats safe are all very different things ;D more often than not, sometimes they are the same thing.

Legal does not always equal safe
Illegal does not always equal unsafe
Vise Versa
Allowed and not allowed same issue.

The so what part is if your tank leaks and you have done absolutely nothing to address this issue or even give it any thought, it could result in massive destruction and death of not only yourself, but many others as well. Key word could. I don't think anyone is saying that if you ever store a tank inside a house or room with no vents or detector/alarm you and everyone else will die, every time, no questions asked. People do this all the time, yer neighbor might even do it. People might do it their whole lives and never have any problems or tragedies. You may feel that since everyone else is already putting the building at risk what should it matter if you have one too, since the danger is already there. But speaking from experience on a whole different issue that for some reason feels similar in spirit, you don't ever want to be the one left around after a mistake you made killed a friend, loved one or even a complete stranger, death would be a blessing in that scenario. I think it is more a situation where if it is simply you not wanting to take the 30 to 60 seconds to go around the corner of your garage, to your balcony or porch in the case of multi-story buildings or out of the basement to the window outside to turn on the propane for your work day/night. Then your laziness is a poor excuse for putting yourself and others at risk of death.

Now if you are like some other people in this thread who feel that there are other risks much greater than a leak that happen more often and as a result have a higher chance of causing people harm in your particular situation, then by all means do whatever it is you think will cause the least harm, but at least explore all the options available to you in your current state financially, geographically, etc. If you worry about a line being cut or melted or coming loose, then look into the best ways to prevent that from happening to your lines, enact those steps and if you have the money, put a second valve that you can turn off in one of those emergencies inside your place. Never hurts to cover all the bases, or kill two birds with one stone ;D.

If you don't have the money, the landlord is not willing to consider helping you out, or it isn't really physically possible given the space you live at then I think the least a person could do is research what could <---(that word again) go wrong, and figure out the best ways of minimizing the chances of this ever happening, then put those things into effect. Not a lot of effort, costs nothing, and requires no ones permission. /shrug Thats my thoughts...

Last edited by caogomi; 2011-09-07 at 12:06am.
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  #478  
Old 2011-09-07, 12:51am
sangita sangita is offline
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When I wrote "so" I meant so what precautions should I take given that I live in an apartment. I do care about being safe and keeping others safe. My so was regarding more info. I apologize if it came out like "so what" that is absolutely not my intention. SO, I have 2 propane tanks. One on each balcony. One for the grill, one for the torch (I torch outside on a balcony) Every time I use them I spray to check for hose leaks. Is there anything else I can do? I have a fire extinguisher close by. Not doing glass is not an option. Not having a barbie is not an option. I would appreciate any more safety advice.

Thanks so much
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  #479  
Old 2011-09-07, 1:29am
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caogomi caogomi is offline
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hehe when i say you, i kinda mean the generic you for the most part (where it makes sense) as in "when one does so and so this and this and that" I wasn't trying to shake a stick at yas ;D Others might be more knowledgeable in regards to what your situation calls for. I am thinking that since you are outside, that is the major first step. I think there may have been solutions or additions to balcony setups in this thread. There seems to be a different living situation and setup for so many people where not blowing glass isnt an option, which is why my long ass post above was kinda semi upset, because I think there must be ways to help just about everyone be safer even if they can't have the ideal setup in regards to negating danger.

I am sure someone can give you some tips, all depending on what floor you are on, if you have neighbors below you, etc.
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  #480  
Old 2011-09-07, 3:45am
sangita sangita is offline
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Thanks so much. I was not offended. I knew that the essence of your message was please play as safe as you can but I do want as much info as possible about how I can play as safe as possible. I am on the third floor
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