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Tips, Techniques, and Questions -- Technical questions or tips

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  #91  
Old 2008-10-22, 12:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reenie View Post
Kalera,
Thanks for showing the blue lustre glass. I thought about making a sample of those after it was posted and I never even thought to try it. But then it was said 104 COE.

I've been a victim of harsh replies so I know where this girl is coming from and you see it every single day where a lampworker is afraid to say anything about anything because of it.
I just hate seeing that happen. What we write ...we may think about it in one way but what they read could be completely different.
If two people notice the same thing...that's a different story.
I don't think she was trying to steal a design or technique but that color just totally stood out for her.
Haven't we all done the same?
But anyways, back to work, life and all the crap that goes with it
I don't think she was trying to steal a technique, either, she just wanted to know what color it was.

However, she asked the person who made them, and the artist chose not to tell her. Perhaps she's concerned that if she answers, next week there will be a rash of similar luster beads on eBay... and that kind of thing happens often enough that I don't blame her. Not that the glass is her proprietary trade secret, but maybe she just doesn't want to instruct her potential competition "how she got that look".

When the artist declines to comment, posting the beads and asking the artist's peers what colors she used seems deserving of a slap on the hand for rudeness, even though it's certainly not deserving of a lynching.
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  #92  
Old 2008-10-22, 1:26pm
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Hi Reenie,

Thanks for posting your experiments. Different torches do different things. The Iris Dense Blue does the lovely shiny blue thing that I showed in my pix above on my torch. It seems to go brown in your torch. Thanks for taking the time to post the beads - helpful as always!

Cindy


Quote:
Originally Posted by Reenie View Post
Well these never made it into the kiln cuz they were small and I don't plan on selling them. Found them sitting on workbench so YEAH!

They are labeled but you'll understand from my last post what they are. Colors are a bit dark because they were just taken under kitchen flourescent lights. Sorry about that.

Now I'm going to bed!

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  #93  
Old 2008-10-22, 1:41pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulaD View Post
Exactly. It is the sense of entitlement. Paula
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulaD View Post
Please go back and read my posts. What I stated was that it was inapproprate to use the photos the way they were used and I then put a link to the photos and the auction to give the artist proper credit. That has not changed regardless of new information and is quite fair.

Paula
The first quote above is what I was talking about - you were apparently stating that there was some sense of entitlement by the OP - I wasn't talking about posting the pics and in that quote, it didn't appear you were either.
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  #94  
Old 2008-10-22, 1:52pm
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Well... but technically, if thinking you have the right to nab someone's photos and repost them elsewhere isn't "a sense of entitlement" to those photos, I don't actually know what is...
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  #95  
Old 2008-10-22, 1:55pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalera View Post
Well... but technically, if thinking you have the right to nab someone's photos and repost them elsewhere isn't "a sense of entitlement" to those photos, I don't actually know what is...
Right, but my point was that it didn't appear to me that she was talking about the pics, but the glass question - and that is what I was commenting on earlier.


Let me be clear - I am NOT defending the posting of the pics, but some people were MUCH nicer than other in pointing out the OPs mistake.
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  #96  
Old 2008-10-22, 1:56pm
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Huh, I didn't get that because I thought the conversation was about the pics.
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  #97  
Old 2008-10-22, 1:58pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalera View Post
Huh, I didn't get that because I thought the conversation was about the pics.
That's not how I was reading it, but it's a moot point now anyway. The OP has been suitably chastised and is gone.
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  #98  
Old 2008-10-22, 2:25pm
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The pics are gone thanks to a friendly lampworker on here who helped me correct my mistake. Yes, it was about the glass, not the shape, not the design, not the pictures, merely the beauty of the glass. And to all of you who have sent me private messages on here THANKS so much for your support and encouragement.
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  #99  
Old 2008-10-22, 2:32pm
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Thank you for your courtesy in removing the pics, and I hope that you will stay, learn, and contribute here.
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  #100  
Old 2008-10-22, 2:34pm
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Maybe there should be a "STICKY" on (your) rules and regulations. I never have heard of this protocol since joining this group. Are there "Pouncing Upon Unsuspecting Newcomers" here too! Artistic people have tendency to be cruel to others. One attritrube that is uncalled for. I noticed it was only women! Come on! There is no call for this! Be Kind To One Another!!!!!!! Remember it could be you next.
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  #101  
Old 2008-10-22, 6:25pm
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Marilyn, I think one thing that should be noted is that most of the frustration about this issue has little to do with the original post... most of it is over the fact that this is an ongoing issue and there is a lot of pent-up irritation, anger, and frustration over it, which was vented in this thread, but not, for the most part, AT the OP. The OP just sort of set the ball rolling for the larger discussion.

This particular "rule", by the way, is not by any means unique to this board, as you can see by the fact that it is actually encoded into law. Sure, people on the Internet steal photos all the time... but when they get caught doing it, they still get in trouble, no matter how many other people before them stole photos and got away with it.

If your Internet exposure is very limited, this "rule", and the law, might be news to you, but you will benefit by remembering it and not making the same mistake elsewhere, because people here are actually quite gentle by comparison to most of the forums I'm on.
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  #102  
Old 2008-10-22, 9:05pm
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Fair use is a doctrine in United States copyright law that allows limited use of copyrighted material without requiring permission from the rights holders, such as use for scholarship or review. It provides for the legal, non-licensed citation or incorporation of copyrighted material in another author's work under a four-factor balancing test.

The purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

The nature of the copyrighted work;

Amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

The effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

(The text above is paraphrased from a couple of different websites.)

For what it's worth, I now have the artist/s as a saved search on ebay and I'm guessing she may sell a few more beads thanks to this thread.

I'm not taking a side, just thought I'd mention this in case it smooths ruffled feathers ...
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  #103  
Old 2008-10-22, 9:14pm
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This thread was about the glass used.

There is no secret or copywright laws that apply to a question about which glass produces an desired effect is there?

What a turn this thread took....wow.
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  #104  
Old 2008-10-22, 9:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marilyn h View Post
.... Artistic people have tendency to be cruel to others. One attritrube that is uncalled for. I noticed it was only women! Come on! There is no call for this! Be Kind To One Another!!!!!!! Remember it could be you next.
Companies spend huge amounts of their budgets and time protecting their products and their methods and trade secrets. Trust me, if they were full of cupcakes and sweet talk, they would not be in business.

The lampworking community is full of small businesses, small companies, but they work really hard and put a lot of time behind the torch to develop their skills and to discover their own methods and trade secrets. The fact that you have pointed out that the tendency to be cruel is an attribute of artistic people and women is not very fair. For many people this is their livelihood. This is their business. This is how they feed their family.

Do you want them to just lay down and give it all away so they don't look "cruel"? Do you think the corner gas station is telling their competition how to beat them in their own business? Do you suppose McDonalds ever told Burger King the secret sauce but asked them not to use it?

These are peoples lives, their work, and their financial income. They are not being cruel, they are trying to make a living, and they are much nicer and more giving than most any other business I have ever been involved in.

If you were to take a picture from a large company, they wouldn't be satisfied with a "sorry, I didn't know better" and leave it at that. They would trounce you until you were broken and bloody.

The end result of all the hard work is that picture. That is the representation of everything that artist has done up to that very minute when that picture was taken. The culmination of their skills, knowledge, investment of their time and money, everything.

We are much nicer than the big companies and usually will be satisfied with an apology, we don't run around suing people, we don't put gag orders on people, we don't ruin each others businesses in competition like the bigger businesses do. I think we are a much higher standard than you have portrayed us to be.

The written word seems harsh, I am sure this may sound harsh, but trust me, it was written in earnest. If peoples feelings get hurt, that makes me sad, but rarely ever is that the intention. Informing someone of the correct and legal way is better than letting them hang themselves. I feel bad that the OP got drug through this. I am sure it will happen again. It will be an ongoing issue in any business, not just for women and artistic people.

I am sorry that you feel artistic people and women tend to be cruel, compared to most businesses out there, this is an incredibly generous and forgiving group of people. We have all made mistakes somewhere along the line, and I think we are understanding. I hope you can change your view of us, when this community works together it shows people how beautiful and unique lampwork is. It promotes self representing artists. We watch each others back and protect each other and help each other out during emergencies. We support each other when we have hard personal times.

This is the best group of people I have ever had the privilege of working with and knowing.



Oh, and I don't want to forget...the gentlemen that come here are mostly pretty awesome, too.
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  #105  
Old 2008-10-22, 9:33pm
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erose--you STILL have to give credit to WHERE you got the photos/information/documents you're "borrowing" under the fair use laws. And you have to be "using them" as an educational tool--as in, you are teaching something with them, in a non-profit setting, or "reviewing them" in some sort of way--as in, for a publication--say, a book review, or a review of a trunk show, or of an etsy store, or of "gifts you might want to buy for christmas"--not asking questions *about* them.

And--LE is NOT a "not for profit" setting--it's a FOR PROFIT business (no matter if Corri's making a profit or not--it's a business, not a charity!)--owned & operated by CorriDawn--a site at which she's gracious enough to let us all play for free--but, we *do* have to play by the rules & watch the legal ramifications of what we do (and, in turn, it is only fair to attempt to educate others if we'd like to see our playground remain free & open for us to play on!) here.

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  #106  
Old 2008-10-22, 9:36pm
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Photography is beyond simple "copyrighted work" as some of you have posted how "Fair use is a doctrine in United States copyright law that allows limited use of copyrighted material without requiring permission from the rights holders, such as use for scholarship or review."

I have worked in the graphic design industry for over 20 years and photography is a totally different animal. The right of the photograph belongs to the photographer and even when you pay for the usage license, it may be for one-time use only. I have bought photography rights for clients hundreds of times. . . the fee structure is dependent on what it's used for, what the circulation is, domestic or global, size, placement, etc., etc.

So the rule of thumb is NEVER use someone else's photograph without written permission, period.

Having said that, it's obvious the OP of this thread had NO idea of this and did NOT deserve to have this thread turn on her.

IMHO, if anyone has ANY problem with someone's post - a simple PRIVATE PM is the right thing to do.
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  #107  
Old 2008-10-22, 9:42pm
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Hayley--even "fair use" is often contested (and to the benefit of the copyright holder--CCC--copyright clearance center--does a huge business in just clearing copyright usage for things that people want to use, mostly for educational use--loads of stuff that goes through their offices is for colleges & universities--they request, they get either denied or granted & they get billed whatever fee the copyright holder charges, plus "processing"--I worked for them as a temp for a year, an eon ago just doing data entry--it was amazing how much stuff they were processing even back then--I can only imagine what they must be processing by now!) by copyright holders for written materials. When in doubt, you're always better to cover your butt, give credit where credit is due & not "borrow" what doesn't belong to you--be it patterns, words, photos, prints, text, whatever!
Links...that's always your safest bet...just post where stuff is & let people head on over & view it in it's "natural habitat"
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  #108  
Old 2008-10-22, 9:51pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lunamoonshadow View Post
Links...that's always your safest bet...just post where stuff is & let people head on over & view it in it's "natural habitat"
Yup! can't agree with you more, Luna/Lyn!

And if someone not aware of this posts someone else's pix, a quick PRIVATE PM to advise them to remove the pix and add a link instead works much better than even the friendliest post suggesting the same thing . . . coz inevitably someone else will chime in and it eventually snowballs into public humiliation . . .
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  #109  
Old 2008-10-22, 9:52pm
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Well some newbies don't "think" to post a link, they see a pic and get excited as post it without reviewing the laws first.

No wonder we have 5 year olds taken to court for sexual harassment.

Pent up frustrations are no excuse to get ugly with a newbie.

The one thing being left out of all these "legalities" posts is "intent" and there was none.
There was a question about glass.

Yes, a simple, nice PM would have been the right thing to do.
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  #110  
Old 2008-10-22, 10:54pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayley View Post
IMHO, if anyone has ANY problem with someone's post - a simple PRIVATE PM is the right thing to do.
If you are referring to my posts I did have some email exchanges with the OP early on and several with the artist or I would not have posted what I did. I am happy the OP finally did the right thing and linked to the auction. I'm not the first person on the forum to ever mention this. There have been lots of other threads about it and I hear about it a lot from artists who are just as upset but don't want to post on the forum. A lot of them think they won't get support here if they do. Or they are not posting because they don't want to see their work copied and sold in the same venue. (Just think about all of the artists that used to show a few years ago and don't now...)

Paula
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  #111  
Old 2008-10-23, 1:36am
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I wouldn’t post a picture asking about a glass or a technique : just because personally I wouldn’t feel comfortable doing it… I don’t even do that in a PM to the artist because I feel that beadmaker has certainly put a lot of time and effort into it, and if she or he spontanouesly want to share it, I’ll be thankful, but if he or she doesn’t, it’s fine too and I totally understand and I ain’t going to ask.

I not really a newbie on LE but I had absolutely no idea, that I couldn’t post some place else a picture of a bead that has aleady been posted on a forum and simply say : look that is so beautiful ! So and so is a very talented artist don’t you think ? I had no clue this was wrong, espacially since, if I understand things correctly, it is OK to post a link to the post where the picture has been shown.

Paula said this issue has come up a number of times already but this is the first time I happen to read about it…

Hayley said that never, ever should you use a photograph without the written permisson (even for educational purposes), and I didn’t know about that either…

Ignorance is not an excuse, but it is difficult to know everything and be always so cautious about everything and still do and share things….
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  #112  
Old 2008-10-23, 6:56am
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whoa..this thread got real big in one day!
Just wanted to post:

Kalera and Mary Beth--gorgeous beads with the BE luster! WOW!!!
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  #113  
Old 2008-10-23, 8:10am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulaD View Post
If you are referring to my posts I did have some email exchanges with the OP early on and several with the artist or I would not have posted what I did. I am happy the OP finally did the right thing and linked to the auction. I'm not the first person on the forum to ever mention this. There have been lots of other threads about it and I hear about it a lot from artists who are just as upset but don't want to post on the forum. A lot of them think they won't get support here if they do. Or they are not posting because they don't want to see their work copied and sold in the same venue. (Just think about all of the artists that used to show a few years ago and don't now...)

Paula
Paula, I was referring to everyone who had posted regarding this issue. I don't believe that anything you said was mean or inappropriate but it's the collective of everyone's comments that made the OP felt that she was being attacked. So yes, a simple private PM would have been better, imho.

Perhaps someone who wants to address an issue should start a completely separate thread . . . it seems to me that when this type of matter is discussed in a thread by the mass, the OP usually gets slammed along the way.
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  #114  
Old 2008-10-23, 10:15am
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Perhaps someone who wants to address an issue should start a completely separate thread . . . it seems to me that when this type of matter is discussed in a thread by the mass, the OP usually gets slammed along the way.
I think it got covered very well in this thread just last month:
http://lampworketc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105609

But like I stated in my posts already, I think this thread has gone in a different direction from the OP's simple mistake. She shouldn't be taking the vast majority of this personally. She did post someone else's pictures and that's about it. You all keep wondering about the OP poster's feelings and not the bead maker of the beads being discussed.....
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  #115  
Old 2008-10-23, 10:41am
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I don't believe any lay person is going to know the laws of copyright. I have only learned what I know now through the couple years of stumbling upon posts. Most threads started like this one, simple enough, but then the scope changed into copyrights. The title doesn't say Copyright rules and regulations. So I don't really think there should be severe punishment or anger for those who just don't know. Save it for the ones that are informed and are doing it anyway!
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  #116  
Old 2008-10-23, 11:00am
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Amy - I completely agree that the feelings of the person who made the beads in the pix are just as important as the OP . . . that's why I suggested that contacting the OP privately to remove the pix asap would have been best . . .
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  #117  
Old 2008-10-23, 11:53am
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I am probably over protective of our artists maybe because I know many personally. The thread did snowball but I think that much good information was posted. Hopefully we have all learned something from this thread and move forward.
Sooooo...
What color is the glass??? Did anyone ever figure it out??

Paula
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  #118  
Old 2008-10-23, 11:53am
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My uneducated guess is Triton.
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Old 2008-10-23, 11:55am
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That was my guess too.

Paula
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  #120  
Old 2008-10-23, 11:56am
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My guess is that it's Triton or one of its prototypes - Jed got three that I know of, SL-173, SL-188, SL-189.
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