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Safety -- Make sure you are safe! |
2008-08-01, 8:41pm
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da General
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Join Date: Oct 05, 2006
Location: San Francisco
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I am with you, Pam and Dale . . . and I was quoted!
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Hayley
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2008-08-02, 7:19am
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Covered in glitter
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Join Date: Jun 16, 2005
Posts: 15,680
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Pam I totally agree with you. I'm willing to take the risk in the situation I'm working in right now. It's that or no torch at all and I'm just not willing to have no torch at all at the moment. When it gets too cold for me to sit on my deck and torch then I'm through for a while. I would never even dream of taking it inside.
It's a choice I'm making and it's one I can live with. Somehow I doubt if it's even close to a Darwin Award.
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~Deb~
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And those who were seen dancing were thought insane by those who couldn't hear the music. --Nietzsche
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2008-08-02, 8:05am
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Gentleman of Leisure
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Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: A Little Bit West of Yosemite Valley
Posts: 5,200
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All you anti hose-bulk fuel people check this out.......
http://www.ozziebuddy.com/hotheadinfo.html
Now I do have a problem with this as I don't want a #5 (pound (2 kg)) bomb near my jewels... If this tank goes off, its going to be right in front of your torso..........
And here is product sold in Europe......... Only difference it has regulator that keeps gas pressure at 4 "bar" or about 60 psi.........
This might be the best setup, but unfortunately its about $200 to setup...
Dale
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San Francisco - A Few Toys Short of a Happy Meal
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2008-08-02, 8:43am
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Curmudgeon
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Join Date: Apr 12, 2006
Location: Victoria BC Canada
Posts: 5,810
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Quote:
Originally Posted by debkauz
Pam I totally agree with you. I'm willing to take the risk in the situation I'm working in right now. It's that or no torch at all and I'm just not willing to have no torch at all at the moment. When it gets too cold for me to sit on my deck and torch then I'm through for a while. I would never even dream of taking it inside.
It's a choice I'm making and it's one I can live with. Somehow I doubt if it's even close to a Darwin Award.
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I would expect that for every person running a hot head with mini tanks there are a hundred running one with a hose to a bulk tank. If so many people are doing this dangerous deed, why aren't we hearing more about "Darwin award nominees"? Could it be because the risk factor is no greater then running a hose from a bulk tank to a torch?
Maybe we should just tell folks that in order to really be safe, they should just sit and admire their torch but never light it?
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Dennis Brady
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2008-08-02, 9:03am
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Covered in glitter
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Join Date: Jun 16, 2005
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The thing that I really wonder is why we are making such a big deal of this being a HotHead? I would assume that the problem that happened could happen with ANY torch set up. It wasn't the torch. It wasn't the tank. It was the HOSE. That could happen to anyone, no matter what the torch set up they were using. I wonder if anyone would get their knicks in such a twist if it had been a Minor or a Bobcat or any other duel fuel torch. As was pointed out to me by someone I respect a lot, when it happened with another torch the answer was basically that these things happen and get a flashback arrestor. No sky is falling there..
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~Deb~
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And those who were seen dancing were thought insane by those who couldn't hear the music. --Nietzsche
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2008-08-02, 10:13am
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Jun 15, 2005
Posts: 2,251
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You know, Dennis, if you don't understand something then why not ask instead of making sweeping statements that hold no element of truth. The fact is that there is a greater risk using a hot head or similar gas-only torch than there is on an oxy/propane torch. The reason it is a greater risk is simply one of quantity/pressure. Because the propane tanks have a pressure of 250 psi, the quantity of propane that would escape in a given period of time is 50 times as much as at a regulated pressure of 5 psi. At least that is my understanding.
Deb, you are right, people are sort of making a big deal about it because it was a gas only torch, because the gas-only torches operate at such high pressure. Yes, the problem could happen with any torch, but the risk of blowing yourself up is somewhat greater if there is a leak in an unregulated hose. We have a very safe community and sometimes new beadmakers come on the scene and take risks without understanding the risks they are taking. I definitely would be the last person to say, Deb, don't do that! It is your choice and as long as you knowingly assume the risks it is fine.
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Pam
"It is easier to perceive error than to find truth, for the former lies on the surface and is easily seen, while the latter lies in the depth, where few are willing to search for it." Johann Wolfgang Von Goeth
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2008-08-02, 11:00am
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Gentleman of Leisure
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Join Date: Jun 10, 2005
Location: A Little Bit West of Yosemite Valley
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pam
Because the propane tanks have a pressure of 250 psi, the quantity of propane that would escape in a given period of time is 50 times as much as at a regulated pressure of 5 psi. At least that is my understanding.
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Just to keep facts straight ..........
Actually at 80° f. the internal tank pressure is about 127 PSI.... It takes a tank (ambient) temperature of about 120° f. to get tank pressures up to 250psi.... Also tank safety valves (part of OPD valve) are set to blow off excessive pressures at about 365 psi... So you don't want your tank anywhere near a fire or a heat source about 200° f. or more. See chart on site below.
http://www.flameengineering.com/Propane_Info.html
If you want to completely understand propane tank safety this is about the most comprehensive site on the internet, at least that I have been able to find. Just be aware all the appliance application discussed on this site is for tradition home type appliances like furnaces, water heaters, gas stoves. They do not relate (in most cases) to lampwork applications... Although same safety scenarios still apply.
http://www.propane101.com/index.htm
Dale
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2008-08-02, 12:29pm
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Senior Member
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Thanks, Dale. I knew you would come up with the correct information. I appreciate it.
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Pam
"It is easier to perceive error than to find truth, for the former lies on the surface and is easily seen, while the latter lies in the depth, where few are willing to search for it." Johann Wolfgang Von Goeth
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2008-08-02, 5:40pm
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Member
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Forgive me, but could somebody backtrack for me? I'm confused with the original scenario, and then some of the stuff said after...
1.) Is the propane tank described in the first post separate from the bulk tank of, I'm assuming, MAPP gas being used for beadmaking with the HH? So the propane tank was leaking and it caused the explosion?
2.) If MAPP gas is discontinued, or will be, what should folks use with a HH?
3.) Also, isn't a HH an internal mix torch or whatever it's called, vs. say a minor which is surface mix? Wouldn't that have something to do with the need for flashback arrestors?
4.) Can a regulator be used on a bulk tank of fuel used with a HH, or must it flow out at that pressure?
Sorry if this is a rehash, but it seems confusing to me, and I want to understand it completely.
Best,
Patti
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In fact, the ability to start out upon your own impulse is fundamental to the gift of keeping going upon your own terms, not to mention the further and more fulfilling gift of getting started all over again -- never resting upon the oars of success or in the doldrums of disappointment....Getting started, keeping going, getting started again -- in art and in life, it seems to me this is the essential rhythm.... --Seamus Heaney
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2008-08-02, 7:33pm
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Gentleman of Leisure
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ditfd
Forgive me, but could somebody backtrack for me? I'm confused with the original scenario, and then some of the stuff said after...
1.) Is the propane tank described in the first post separate from the bulk tank of, I'm assuming, MAPP gas being used for beadmaking with the HH? So the propane tank was leaking and it caused the explosion?
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It was a BULK propane tank with HH on a hose. It appears there was a leak in hose or in hose fitting near HH.
Quote:
2.) If MAPP gas is discontinued, or will be, what should folks use with a HH?
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Propane, Map-Pro (propylene), Propylene, Chemtane or almost any other brazing fuels. Specifically not acetylene as it is to dirty.
Quote:
3.) Also, isn't a HH an internal mix torch or whatever it's called, vs. say a minor which is surface mix? Wouldn't that have something to do with the need for flashback arrestors?
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Being the HH is a fuel air torch and is technically a premix (internal mix), but that it is powered (draws air) by the force of fuel being pushed through a orifice it can not flashback. The orifice as about the size of a human hair and it is so small and the pressure behind the orifice is so great the flame front can not pass through the orifice to cause a flashback... Therefor no flashback arrestor needed.
Quote:
4.) Can a regulator be used on a bulk tank of fuel used with a HH, or must it flow out at that pressure?
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Yes you can use a regulator with a HH, the regulator will have to be capable of supplying fuel to torch at about 60 to 80 PSI... HH is designed to function at tank pressure which at 70° f. is about 110 PSI. By time you buy hose and setup with regulator and what not, you might as well bypass the HH and go directly to fuel/oxygen torch.
Quote:
Sorry if this is a rehash, but it seems confusing to me, and I want to understand it completely.
Best,
Patti
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Any time understanding is needed, do not hesitate to ask questions...
Cheers
Dale
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San Francisco - A Few Toys Short of a Happy Meal
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2008-08-02, 7:51pm
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Member
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Join Date: Dec 05, 2006
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Thanks Dale!
I haven't used my HH in years, but keep it around for guests to use if they want to play. I'd gotten very behind in the technology of it all.
Best,
Patti
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In fact, the ability to start out upon your own impulse is fundamental to the gift of keeping going upon your own terms, not to mention the further and more fulfilling gift of getting started all over again -- never resting upon the oars of success or in the doldrums of disappointment....Getting started, keeping going, getting started again -- in art and in life, it seems to me this is the essential rhythm.... --Seamus Heaney
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2008-08-04, 10:43am
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old fart
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Mark Wilson
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2008-08-04, 1:07pm
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Covered in glitter
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Join Date: Jun 16, 2005
Posts: 15,680
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I understand all of this and I also understand that it all assumes that we sit around and do nothing while this was occuring. There IS a risk. I'm not trying to say there isn't but it seems a little like ChickenLittle yelling about the sky falling. If I'm the person who gets hurt yep, I'll be really pissed at myself. However, I think the safety checks that I do minimize my risks. Do I want to rely on someone else's quality control? I do it all the time. Every time I get in my car, every time I light my stove...every time I do anything that can be dangerous I rely on someone else's quality control. As a nurse BOY did I rely on someone else's quality control...as did the ICU patients that I cared for on a daily basis. Our LIVES revolve around someone else's quality control.
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~Deb~
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And those who were seen dancing were thought insane by those who couldn't hear the music. --Nietzsche
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2008-08-05, 3:28pm
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Junior Member
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Join Date: May 01, 2008
Posts: 12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laserglass
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I read the article and truthfully it made me sick to my stomach. I can't tell you how this incident has changed me. I have gone back to the small yellow canisters we all love. I am buying a new torch soon but I will NEVER torch with the tank anywhere near me and I will NEVER use a hose with my HH again. I respect others and their decisions but what happened to me was horrible and I will not risk it again. If I didn't truly love glass I would have quit right then! I'm glad my experience has sparked this conversation that will hopefully prevent anything like this from happeneing to anyone else.
Jen
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