Electroforming - Trouble shooting

alphamare · #1 2013-02-16, 1:02pm

I need help. I just unpacked a new rectifier that I bought on ebay and everything is set up and ready to go. The problem I am having is that after I turn it on, no matter which way or in what order I turn the amp or voltage knob it stays at zero. The rectifier didn't come with clear instructions and the company is closed for the weekend. Here's a picture of what I got. Any help would be appreciated.

philomena · #2 2013-02-16, 1:17pm

Did you already connect it to your set up? Mine only shows amp and volt when the electric current circuit is closed.

Oh, and do you already have a bead covered with conductive paint in the copper solution (and a connection from the copperwires to your bead)?

Maybe that is the solution of the riddle?

Cheers
Kathrin

alphamare · #3 2013-02-16, 1:26pm

Yep, I had it connected. Do I maybe need to give the copper wires a good scrubbing?

philomena · #4 2013-02-16, 1:34pm

Yes, that is one of the next issues. Scrub all wires and anodes and make sure the thin wire to the bead really has contact. Sometimes I have to wiggle a bit.
And better don't touch the scrubbed wire without gloves. The grease of the skin may cause issues too.

Do you have the right solution? Were the bottles new and never opened before?

Or have you maybe connected the alligator clips the wrong way?

AmorphousDesigns · #5 2013-02-16, 1:52pm

post a picture of your whole set up, all connected with a good view of all the wires. that will help us understand and troubleshoot

alphamare · #6 2013-02-16, 2:02pm

I scrubbed the wires and made sure it touches the conductive paint, but no change. I did however notice that the conductive paint looks a little thin, on the bead as well as where it connects. I gave it another coat of paint, now I have to wait till it dries. How long do you guys usually let it dry for?

I'll post a picture of my set-up, need to find my camera first. Thanks for helping Kathrin & Elizabeth.

alphamare · #7 2013-02-16, 2:39pm

Here's my set-up.

philomena · #8 2013-02-16, 2:50pm

My set up looks a bit different.

Are there any anodes or is the think copper wire your anode? Where is the bead placed in this set up? Laying on the ground of the beaker?

alphamare · #9 2013-02-16, 3:20pm

The spiral copper is my anode. I like it this way, because it has your project surrounded by copper from all directions. I think Sherri Haab uses this method.

philomena · #10 2013-02-16, 3:36pm

At the moment I don't have a new idea why it doesn't work.
Maybe Elizabeth?

Did you scrub the thin wire as well?

Cheers
Kathrin

alphamare · #11 2013-02-16, 3:47pm

I put my bead back in. It has plenty of paint on the bead and a good connection to the wire. And still nothing. No matter if I start out with the knobs turned to all the way to the left, or to the right, or one left one right, I can not get any numbers on the amps or voltage no matter how I turn the knobs. I do see numbers on the amps for barely a split second when I turn the power on, but it goes to zero immediately.

alphamare · #12 2013-02-16, 3:49pm

I gave both wires a good scrub. I'll go scrub them again, can't hurt.

houptdavid · #13 2013-02-16, 6:05pm

Turn the knobs labeled fine as far to the right as they will go and leave them alone
Adjust with the coarse knobs

It sounds like you have a bad connection, have you tried with just a copper anode and cathode, to make sure everything works?

alphamare · #14 2013-02-16, 8:52pm

Hi David, thanks for your suggestion. I did try just the anode and cathode by itself. No luck. I then opened the box and found a loose connection. After fiddling with it for quite awhile I finally got both A & V to show numbers, but I don't think it's right.
The volts don't show when I turn the knob. I can get the amps to show when I turn the knob. But at 0.1 amps the volts still show 0 even when I turn the voltage knob. The volts only go up a bit if I increase the amps. I think when I had the amps at full power it showed 4.6 and the volts at full power showed 0.4.

I think the connection to my bead is fine, I briefly turned up both A & V all the way and there were bubbles coming from around the bead.

I'll work on it tomorrow, hopefully I can get this cheap piece of made in china crap to work. Thanks everybody for all the help. I'll keep you posted. Good night.

AmorphousDesigns · #15 2013-02-16, 9:29pm

do you have a volt/ohm meter? If so, you can check for continuity to see if your wires or clips have an electrical "open" (wire broken) somewhere.

here is a link to a "how to" for checking continuity.
http://www.ehow.com/how_7443682_test...ity-meter.html

In your case you can check your wires by disconnecting both leads from the power supply, then one at a time, take the electrode out of the solution and check for continuity between the end of the electrode and where the connector plugs into the power supply.

If you have continuity (no resistance) on both electrodes, then you know the wires and connections are good. Now you can try electro-forming again, if you still are having problems, then the problem is most likely the power supply (based on your comment about opening the box, the power supply is a good suspect) or the chemical solution.

houptdavid · #16 2013-02-16, 11:04pm

Sounds like the rectifier is defective

castaway · #17 2013-02-17, 12:15am

the solution has a lot to do with this, check that you have enough copper sulphate in the mix and perhaps add a small amount of sulphuric acid, the voltage and amps are very dependant on the conductivity of the solution, when all is correct it should run at about .5 volts and .3 amps to get a good steady build up of copper you may not have enough copper in your anode, try putting more of it in the solution.
B

alphamare · #18 2013-02-17, 12:37pm

Elizabeth, I tested the wires/clips and they work fine. The solution is brand new from Rio Grande. I tested a piece of copper wire as my cathode. In order for the rectifier to show numbers, I have to hook up everything, then turn on the A & V, and THEN turn on power. I can control the amps, but not the Volts. When I increase the amps, the volts increase at the same rate (0.2A = 0.2V) I let it run @ 0.2A and 0.2V. After a while the volts jumped to 0.9. I adjusted it and ended up with 0.25A and 0.4V. After a while the volts went back down to match the amps. I turned it off and checked the cathode. There is a copper build up and the color is dull but not salmony and a little grainy. I also noticed a lot of "debris" that came off the anodes on the bottom of the beaker. I turned it back on and again, I have no control over the volts. So now what?

alphamare · #19 2013-02-17, 12:41pm

As for possibly not having enough copper anodes, I have 5-6 spiral circles of 6 gauge copper wire submerged in solution surrounding the cathode. Shouldn't that be enough?

Dragonharper · #20 2013-02-17, 1:21pm

From what you are describing it sounds like it is in constant current mode. I've been searching the web but I am unable to locate an instruction manual.

houptdavid · #21 2013-02-17, 1:55pm

It should be constant current, but after a quick check online this "BRAND" of power supplies is notorious for having problems

alphamare · #22 2013-02-17, 2:41pm

I think that the voltage knobs must not be working, why else would I not get any change in numbers when I turn them.

Below is a picture of a copper wire I tried to electroform, settings were @ 0.25A and 0.3V. The copper crumbles right off.

Then I tried the bead again. Set @ 0.14A and 0.2V. No copper on the bead, and the copper deposit on the wire looks salmony to me. The conductive paint is also brand new from rio and I stirred it well before applying.

Any suggestions on a different rectifier? Something that will work properly and hold up?
I had talked to Sean at mastech about this one. http://www.mastechpowersupply.com/dc...n/prod_77.html

He said it was a good choice for electroforming. I ordered it, paid for it, waited, just to find out it was out of stock nine days later. Had to ask twice to get my money back. Left me with a bit of a sour taste in my mouth.

Alaska · #23 2013-02-17, 3:19pm

One could test the output with a 12 volt auto light that is within the voltage and current specifications of the unit. A 1156 bulb is 28 watts at 12 VDC or about 2.3 amps. While a 1141 is 18 watts. Smaller running light bubs even less.

Walmart has a good selection. A pair of 1141's runs $1.27.

houptdavid · #24 2013-02-17, 4:35pm

This was the one most people sold in their electroforming "kits"...
HY1502D
http://www.digitalmultimeter.biz/mas...olts-0-2-amps/
Or
HY1803D http://www.mastechpowersupplies.com/...y-hy1803d.html

If you search around they should be as little as $49 US +S/H Check Google, Amazon, etc

alphamare · #25 2013-02-17, 7:16pm

Thanks David, I was going to order the HY1803D from amazon a while back until I read all the bad feedback. That scared me away from inexpensive units. That's why I opted for the Volteq HY-1520EX with voltage protection but was unable to get it. I think I will order the HY1502D tomorrow. I hope I can return my piece of junk without to much hassle and cost.

Thank you everybody for all the help, I learned quite a bit about amps and volts and hope that I can show off my first eletroformed piece soon.

Holaday · #26 2013-02-20, 1:49pm

I purchased a unit that looks very similar to yours to use in the electro-etch process with salt water. The "instructions" included in the box were the sort that jokes are made of. I had the same issues with not being able to adjust the amp/current settings. I thought it might be due to operator ignorance, so had a friend who knows more about how these things work test it with a meter. Definitely the unit at fault. I returned it and have since received a full refund. See my blog (link below signature) for more details.

While the small power source I bought to replace it is working well, I still would like to explore the rectifier options. Not so much for plating... though that sounds interesting... but for safer and more consistent etching of larger pieces in larger tanks.

houptdavid · #27 2013-02-20, 2:35pm

Carol HOW large? I can do 6"x6" plates with mine in copper sulfate solution http://www.oteinstruments.com/cart/c...c0-2a-346.html

Holaday · #28 2013-02-20, 4:48pm

Thanks for the information and the link. That appears to be a great price from what research I have done... and free shipping into the bargain!

The largest I am likely to etch is 4 x 6".... more often 3 X 6". 16g or 18g hard brass for printing plates or 18g copper for direct etch to enamel on. I've done this successfully with salt water and 4 D cells in series. However, it was slow, and even seemed to stop working after a short while. I used two sets of rechargeable batteries... perhaps part of the problem. This is why I am searching for the "perfect", dependable, power source. Sounds like this might be it. I'll go back to my notes for the copper sulfate info.

What voltage do you set for the 6 x 6" ? Does it matter what the gauge is? If it is copper or brass? Easy enough to match the anode to the cathode in size and material.

One concern is the warning to not go above 1.5 volts due to the toxic gas created (with the salt water option). Another tech person says "no worries" as long at it is done with proper ventilation. I need to be certain about this as I am a teacher and want to be very careful about what I demonstrate.

houptdavid · #29 2013-02-20, 5:10pm

It's been a while since I did any, I'd say somewhere around 1v, the thickness shouldn't make any difference

With the copper sulfate, from what I have read it isn't a problem unless you go over 10 volts as to the creation of gas, as the amount will be so small it will dissapate and not be explosive!

http://www.nontoxicprint.com/electroetching.htm

alphamare · #30 2013-02-20, 6:09pm

Hey Carol, yours was probably the same rectifier. I think different companies just ad their own "brand name" to it. I was going half mad trying to make it work, thinking that it was probably operator error. And like you said, the instructions were completely useless. I returned it and ordered the HY1502D for now, but like you I would also like to explore more options.