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Safety -- Make sure you are safe!

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  #1  
Old 2009-09-16, 5:39pm
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Default Safety question

I have my 20 lb propane canister outside my house behind the fence. I run the 24 ft hose to my basement through the window. I have a hot head. The hose through the window is outside the fence. If I shut off the propane, bleed out the hose and shut the torch off securely is this safe or do I need to disconnect my torch and pull the hose back out the window every night when I am done?
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Old 2009-09-16, 9:16pm
NMLinda NMLinda is offline
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You're doing all the important things - propane tank outside, shutting the propane tank off each time, bleeding out the hose and turning off your torch. Some hot head users also disconnect the hose from the torch so that they can drain the hose (recommend searching for discussions on this), but I don't see any reason why you'd have to poke the hose back out the window.

Linda
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  #3  
Old 2009-09-17, 3:30am
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Okay. That's kind of a relief. It gets really cold here in the winter and last year we had about a foot of snow for quite some time. It would be helpful if I didn't have to shovel a path around the side of my house to be able to torch. I am already going to have to shovel a path to the propane. It's in a box with holes around the bottom. I think I am going to put it up on bricks so that if it snows a bit the holes won't be blocked. I have checked my connections with soapy water for leaks and have actually been pulling the hose back out every night. I think also I am going to get a top of the line carbon monoxide detector to put right by my bench. I will make sure the torch connection to the hose is secure the next time I set up again. I always check before I light anything!
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Old 2009-09-17, 4:48am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverRiverJewelry View Post
I have my 20 lb propane canister outside my house behind the fence. I run the 24 ft hose to my basement through the window. I have a hot head. The hose through the window is outside the fence. If I shut off the propane, bleed out the hose and shut the torch off securely is this safe or do I need to disconnect my torch and pull the hose back out the window every night when I am done?
IMHO you should not bring the line into your home at all. there have been serious fires, and there is a huge potential for problems since the hose is up to 100 times higher pressure than the hoses used with propane/oxygen torches. IMHO only use the 1 pound tanks inside, or torch with the bulk tank outside.

but if you feel compelled to do what you are doing, i would take the torch outside at night
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Old 2009-09-17, 4:55am
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but if you feel compelled to do what you are doing, i would take the torch outside at night
Mark,

If she's turning her tank off outside and burning the fuel in the line off, why on earth would she need to take the "empty" torch outside at night?

Sue
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Old 2009-09-17, 5:19am
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shut off valves, hoses, and connections can leak. empty hoses might not be empty. IMHO the only 100% safe thing to do it to take it all outside. but people are free to do what they want.
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Old 2009-09-17, 6:33am
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I'm in a similar situation in Northern Ohio. Are you talking about any kind of propane set up, or are you referring to high pressures due to use of a hot head instead of a surface mix torch with oxy? I'm trying to decide how the heck to set up a studio here. Joan
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  #8  
Old 2009-09-17, 8:03am
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Where in Northern Ohio are you? I am in Akron.

There is no way I can torch outside, there isn't any where to go. Joan, mine is straight up propane with a hot head. If its safer to unhook and wind the hose up every night I will do so.

I am a bit confused as the comment on the hose. This hose IS the hose used with the propane/oxygen torches. Its just a custom length so it reaches.
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Old 2009-09-17, 8:05am
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Sonja, I am in Cleveland. We are probably not too far from each other. I'll pm you. Joan
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Old 2009-09-17, 8:11am
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I know the hose is the same. My question related to propane pressures that differ between hot head and my torch, a minor, which is reduced through the regulator. The hose is the same. I live in Cleveland Heights. Joan B
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Old 2009-09-17, 8:57am
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my main concern is due to the vast difference in pressure. but propane should enter the home with copper tubing or black iron pipe which ever is code in your area. there should be a shut off valve on both sides of the wall (in and out) and i would still shut them all off and turn the valve on the tank at the end of a torching session.

with natural gas, i have a shut off valve at the meter which i never use. then i tee off of the main line and have 2 shut off valves before in enter my natural gas manifold which also has 2 valves. so i have a total of 4 valves that i can shut off. each one provides a measure of safety. only when all 4 are turned on will the valves on my torch be able to be used to adjust the flame. in the photos, there is metal pipe until the hoses are clamped on the output of the 2 torch manifold.

another thing, i would recommed that people cover all rubber hoses with a steel braid so that if pieces of hot glass fly off, they don't melt through the hose and cause a leak. i did this to several of my hoses.


i live in minnesota so i know about the hot and cold limiting outdoor torching. all i can do is offer my opinion, it is up to you to make the decision. IMHO, i would use 1 pound tanks and save my money to get a torch that will run off of natural gas or low pressure propane.
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  #12  
Old 2009-09-17, 9:27am
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Where in Northern Ohio are you? I am in Akron.

There is no way I can torch outside, there isn't any where to go. Joan, mine is straight up propane with a hot head. If its safer to unhook and wind the hose up every night I will do so.

I am a bit confused as the comment on the hose. This hose IS the hose used with the propane/oxygen torches. Its just a custom length so it reaches.
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Old 2009-09-17, 9:31am
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What exactly is low pressure propane? and what kind of torch would use this? And how is it set up exactly? (I am pretty sure I won't be able to talk my husband into the natural gas thing.) I would certainly be willing to save up for something that is safer to use on a regular basis. Any idea what the cost would be? ( a rough estimate is fine)
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Old 2009-09-17, 9:46am
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Get a quick disconnect for the hose near the house. That way you can disconnect (keep the outside part of the hose outside and the inside part inside and the window closed) and there is no danger from leaks. Yes, you will need to buy a little more hose or refit what you have.
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Old 2009-09-17, 9:51am
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I am assuming that I can get the quick disconnect at the hardware store? I hope lol! And I am guessing they would also have the piece I need to screw it into the hose?
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Old 2009-09-17, 9:55am
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Maybe. I always got my stuff at Arrow Springs or the my local welding and gas supply.
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Old 2009-09-17, 10:50am
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What Mark is recommending is the most conservative, safety-conscious position to take, and there are some compelling reasons behind it.

The risk that all HH users who work from BBQ tanks is that the HH is designed to work off the direct pressure of the tank. This pressure is orders of magitude higher than what building codes allow into homes for either propane or natural gas, so if anyone using this kind of set-up had an 'event' that caused either an explosion, a fire or personal injury, it's almost certain that there would be serious homeowner's insurance coverage issues.

More important, of course, is the personal injury risk with bringing in gas at that very, very high pressure. It's important to bear in mind that the long BBQ tank hoses that are popular for use with HH's are really intended for outdoor recreational use, so that if a fitting or hose failed, it's not such a safety risk. The manufacturers of these therefore don't have to satisfy the same reliability and robustness for their products that they would have to have if they had intended their product for indoor use.

About a year or two ago, an LE member found this out the hard way. She posted a frightening experience in which the fittings on the hose to her BBQ tank failed, which, because her hot head torch was on, set off an almost explosive event right next to her (she had had her tank in the basement with her, which she admitted was very unwise in the first place). Don't remember if the fittings failed on the torch side of the hose or the BBQ tank side, but it doesn't really matter - they're equally likely to fail on either end. If they fail for someone on the torch side with an open flame and all that high-pressure gas coming in....and the tank shut-off all the way outside.....the consequences could be unimaginable.

We're very fortunate to still have this LE member with us and that she happened to escape serious injury, but she recognized how very, very lucky she was. I commend her for having the courage to post what happened as a warning to others.

This is some background on why it's safer to use 1lb canisters with a HH torch when working inside - no hose fittings that can fail, a far more secure connection, and only a limited amount of propane that could leak or burn if there was ever a problem - and why it's fundamentally safer to torch outside with a HH on a BBQ tank and long hose.

The difference for a surface mix torch is that these are designed to work on fairly low propane pressures of only a few psi, which can be brought into a building far more safely. With these torches, propane from the tank can be down-regulated to a convenient fixed level of, say, 5-10 psi outside the building (check your local building codes) and then further controlled with an adjustable regulator just inside. Additional safety features of shut-off valves both inside the work area and outside enable fast shut-off, if needed. The main point is that the pressure coming in is far, far lower than for a HH.

Linda
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Old 2009-09-17, 11:07am
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Originally Posted by SilverRiverJewelry View Post
What exactly is low pressure propane? and what kind of torch would use this? And how is it set up exactly? (I am pretty sure I won't be able to talk my husband into the natural gas thing.) I would certainly be willing to save up for something that is safer to use on a regular basis. Any idea what the cost would be? ( a rough estimate is fine)
What you're really trading, from a maximum safety perspective, is working outdoors on a HH torch, which requires the propane to be at its inherent high direct-tank pressure, with switching to a surface mix torch, which enables you to work at a far lower propane pressure that is safer if you prefer to work indoors.

If you look up torches and accessories at vendors such as Arrow Springs, Frantz Art Glass, ArtCo, ABR, Whale or any of the other wonderful vendors that support us, you'll get an idea of the range of costs for common surface-mix torches like the Cricket, Minor or MiniCC, for regulators, for hoses, for fittings to put it all together, etc. Dale M has some good articles on Art Glass Answers for how to safely bring propane into a building, as well as other excellent info.

If you still want to work indoors with a HH, and are clear about the risks, both personally and from an insurance perspective, there are perhaps safer ways to bring in the propane, including shut-off valves you can quickly get to, per Mark's follow-up post

Linda
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Old 2009-09-17, 11:29am
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Get a quick disconnect for the hose near the house. That way you can disconnect (keep the outside part of the hose outside and the inside part inside and the window closed) and there is no danger from leaks. Yes, you will need to buy a little more hose or refit what you have.

NO

the pressure inside a hose to a hothead can have a pressure from 75 to over 200 psi. there is no leakless quick disconnect that i am aware of made for propane at those pressures. here is a link that shows the pressure in the hose of a full propane tank as a function of temperature. and also note that a tank in the sun will have a higher temperature than in the shade. also note that a hothead needs around 60 to 75 psi to operate at all.

http://www.flameengineering.com/Propane_Info.html
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Old 2009-09-17, 1:20pm
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so if I get a torch like the cricket or minor, do I then need to also have an oxygen tank? I guess I am confused as to how those are set up to begin with and what type of other *stuff* as far as tanks etc go. I of course would prefer to be as safe as humanly possible.
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Old 2009-09-17, 4:00pm
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Sonja - One of the best books you can buy is James Kervin's book "More than you ever wanted to know about glass beadmaking". It's an excellent resource not only for basic lampworking techniques, but also for how to set up studio, including how to set up an oxy/propane torch like a cricket or minor, as well as critical safety items like ventilation and eye protection.

The answer to your question is yes, you will need oxygen as well as propane. You can run a surface mix torch with either tanked oxygen or through an oxy con. There's a lot of info in the Torch questions section on which oxycons work best for which torch if you want to go that route. If you want to stick with oxygen tanks to start with, you can run the 02 into your basement using black pipe, just as you should be doing with your propane. The Art Glass Answers forum (www.ArtGlassAnswers.com) has good info on how to do this. DeAnne/TheGlassZone has a great tut, too. I believe it's a sticky either here in Safety or in free Tutorials. There's some important general info on the Art Glass Answers forum on how to set up in a basement safely.

I'd recommend reading James book, first, so that you have the basic idea how surface mix torches like crickets and minors are set up. I think that will help give you a good context to better understand and appreciate DeAnne's tut and the info in Art Glass Answers.

Linda
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Old 2009-09-17, 4:35pm
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Quote:
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Get a quick disconnect for the hose near the house. That way you can disconnect (keep the outside part of the hose outside and the inside part inside and the window closed) and there is no danger from leaks. Yes, you will need to buy a little more hose or refit what you have.
On point I agree with "laserglass"......

NO quick disconnects and no high pressure plumbing indoors....

A hose on a HH to bulk tank is to be treated as "temporary' and should be disconnected and taken out when done.......

If the aspects of a HH on long hose and having to take it down when not in use bothers you, then you are better off with fuel/oxygen torch as others have stated....

Dale
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Old 2009-09-17, 5:04pm
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I don't mind taking it down after every use if its safer that way. Its not THAT much trouble.
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Old 2009-09-17, 5:05pm
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Thank you Linda, I will read through everything and figure out how much all of this would cost. Also, how safe is it to have an oxygen tank in your basement?
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Old 2009-09-17, 5:18pm
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As far as I know, it's safe. More a question of whether you have a walk-out basement and could conveniently get the tank in and out. Many of us use K-sized tanks, which are about four feet tall and can be quite heavy to lift, but 'roll' pretty easily into place (ask your welding supply person to show you how to tilt it, hold the cap with one hand and 'roll' it with the other hand as you walk). Tanks larger than that can be hard for one person to move around, and tanks smaller than that can run out quickly enough to be annoying.

Linda
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Old 2009-09-17, 5:56pm
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No walk out basement unfortunately.
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Old 2009-09-17, 7:16pm
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An oxycon is a good investment over the medium to long term, but they are an expensive up-front cost. It's relatively inexpensive in the short term to rent a K-cylinder, leave it at ground level outside conveniently close to your work area, and black-pipe the oxygen into your basement (I wouldn't try to wrestle the cylinder into the basement, much less up and out!). If you decide you want to/can switch over to an oxycon, it's easy to just return the tank, but if you ever wanted to upgrade to a bigger torch that an oxycon might not conveniently power, you've got the plumbing in place to go back to tanks. So, beyond the improved safety question of switching to a surface mix torch, there are some economic trades you might want to consider relative to tanked vs oxycon. Not hard to make either work, just a matter of what kind of up-front investment you want to make vs long term

Linda
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Old 2009-09-17, 7:22pm
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So basically I really need to work on getting the propane hooked up to the copper/ black pipe to start.
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Old 2009-09-17, 8:46pm
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It's not hard to set up for both oxy and propane at the same time, assuming that you'd like to start out on tanked 02 initially with an upgrade to a surface mix torch.

Are you going to discontinue working on your HH until you can upgrade or keep working on it in the interim, even with the high pressure risks?

Linda
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Old 2009-09-17, 9:01pm
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I'm not sure where the"basement" came into conversation, but consider this.... Put oxygen tanks at ground level with propane tanks and pipe the oxygen into basement also so you would not have to wrestle tanks up and down stairs, also there is carts for moving tank if you are uncomfortable "rolling" them along...

Only requirement in piping in oxygen is installation has to be completely oil/grease free.....

Dale
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